She really does <3 and thanks for saying that.
I just wanted to make sure my internet searches aren’t in vein by seeing some successful draftie types, which was the purpose of my thread.
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That is correct. I’ve worked my tail off to get my QH to the level but it’s hard to out jump a mid-dressage score and we are routinely in the high 30s. She’d like to see it come easier to me this time around with a bit better results. My goals, I don’t know lol. I ultimately just want to get around safely. I took some hard knocks last year that I’d really like to not repeat.
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That’s fair. I remember when I started eventing, you could easily finish top 5 on a 40-something dressage score at BN/N - maybe even win. Those days are long gone 
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You do not need an expensive import to win at Novice! American-bred draft crosses have been used for eventing since eventing existed. Before WB were popular or common in the States, draft-crosses were the go-to for riders who wanted or needed a bigger/bigger bodied horse than a TB.
A 7/8 TB and 1/8 Percheron was considered ideal in terms of a draft cross for eventing. A 7/8 TB or a 3/4 TB will certainly hold its own at an event and a bystander or judge may assume it’s a WB. In fact, you may be surrounded by 7/8 or 3/4 crosses at your next event and not even know it. Crosses other than TB and Percherons can do just fine as well: friends have evented (and won at novice): QH/perch and TB/clyde. Also Shire-TB crosses can be really nice for people needing large horses.
When shopping for a grade or a cross, the key to success is to look at the individual horse: conformation, movement, eye, etc., and to try out the horse to see if its body-type, way of going, and temperament are a good match for you. Time savers like buying off a video are not helpful because it is really about the horse itself; useful information about bloodlines, or the show ring records of the horses’s siblings, or the reputation of a breeder/importer/agent are all unavailable to help guide a purchasing decision. It is all about seeing and trying out the horse. So the buying process may be more cumbersome and you may end up looking at many horses before finding the one.
Your trainer likely prefers the procedure of her calling her contacts and telling them what she is looking for, and them presenting several suitable options. But remember: you are the client. It is your money and you set the budget. Do not feel pressured by anyone into spending more than you are comfortable with. You can absolutely find what you are looking for, it will just take some time and legwork.
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I remember the days of the ‘foal trains’ coming from Canada. Lots of Quarterhorse / Draft crosses that made nice ammie owner horses. Some were talented as well as being good eggs.
They were bought fairly cheap because they were so young and there were so many of them.
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There’s a happy medium between 6-figure import and ISH/draft cross of dubious background though. Frankly in the $20-25K range have you tried looking for domestically-bred horses with lines your trainer might view with more enthusiasm?
If you’re comfortable with green broke I would think you could find a 3-4 year old warmblood in that range unless maybe you are dead set on a 16.3h bay gelding with four socks. Buying young horses is enough of a gamble even when you DO know the breeding and what its parents, grandparents and siblings are like. I’m actually stunned to hear that anyone is asking $20K for unstarted draft crosses? I will admit to ignorance of the market in Canada but would be shocked if anyone is truly paying that for a grade horse that isn’t already out competing with good results.
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They aren’t, for that price you can get one that is well going and is at least 5 or 6 and ready to work.
They might be for Irish Draught crosses which are, again, a completely different thing. Not heavy drafts. Very good jumpers, statistically some of the best bloodlines to have for jumping. They are imho overpriced in the USA but people are breeding them very specifically for sport + soundness + amateur friendly temperament here and they don’t seem to have any problems selling those ones at all because the USA is not exactly swimming in sound, family friendly 16h+ young horses with solid sport or hunt horse lines.
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Sure ISH can be fantastic. But it sounds like OP is looking at horses with that label slapped on and no actual documentation of the breeding: Irish Draught, TB or other. So there’s no way of knowing what those horses actually are other than taking the word of a hobby breeder, which no one should be doing at that price point.
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Unrecorded breeding would be almost impossible if she’s looking in the US, since 99% of them are going to be AI and IDs ain’t cheap in the US. The mare could be unrecorded but unless the person is just a total scammer it would be trivially easy to verify breeding even if uninspected or only CoB.
I got a couple really nice PMUs that way. Uncomplicated, easy horses to break - and all of them ended up in lesson programs. They set me up for failure because I thought all horses were that easy to break
I know this is heresy but appendixes make nice sport horses. I’m seeing quite a few local to me that are actually nicer than most TBs I see come off the track. Some of them are cheaper too.
BTW $20k for an unstarted draft x is not out of the norm here in MA. YMMV.
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That’s what they were called, PMU’s. Weren’t they a product of some medical use?
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2 suggestions:
- look for a CB (Cleveland Bay)/ TB cross. VERY athletic, even full CBs have been known to event to Prelim+, and do well in the dressage phase. They are also well-documented, as they are considered a Rare Breed, so every CB, full or part-bred, is important to the survival of the breed. Don’t let the solidness of their build fool you!
- If your trainer is so sure that only WBs are worth pursuing, suggest she/he fork over the dollars above what you have budgeted for. I’ll bet her/his tune changes greatly!
PMU stands for Pregnant Mare Urine which was (is?) used to produce the hormone Premarin.
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Yes, the horses (foals) that came by the shipload into NY up from Canada were colloquially referred to as “PMUs” which is what Aussie_2020 is referring to.
Some were draft x QH, some were full QH, once they realized that papered foals were more likely to get a home. I got several that way, including a really nice Perch x TB/QH.
I will never forget the day we went and picked him out. There were about a hundred foals in a holding corral about 100x200. All scared and not halter broke. You had to walk into the herd and spray paint the one you wanted without getting kicked, and then someone would come in with a horse plus lasso and rope them off and into your trailer, which you backed into the barn and chased them onto. I got several that day including a yearling QH and a lovely, typey pinto looking thing that grew up to be a behemoth.
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I went with a friend and two of her friends. They had already picked which foals they wanted so when we got to the livestock yard in MT the horses were in a separate pen. I had a stock trailer backed up to a temporary chute, they ran the horses in and away we went. My friend got one but the other ladies got two each. I don’t know how the others turned out but my friends was so easy to train. He was a bit chunky, I think he was QH/Belgian cross. He looked like a small draft, got about to 15h but very wide with big legs and feet. A really sweet, handsome boy. Not talented, but had good enough gaits.
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It also depends So much on which draft breed and which line. There is a really wide range in the US especially. Brabants, which are rare but carry a roan gene so very popular for crossing, are hairy tanks. Even 1/4 Brabant would probably be too heavy for staying sound jumping. Some Pulling Belgian lines are also tanks but a 1/4 Belgian can be fairly sporty. Carefully crossed Percherons, Clydes, and Shires can be really nice at 1/2 or 1/4. Clip the feathers off of some Shire or Clyde crosses and you might not even be sure they were drafts, although the head is likely to give it away. (Of all the drafts they have, sadly in my opinion, been bred far far too light)
And on the other side of the cross, TB would be best. Morgan can also be really nice. I would stay away from the QH crosses, which are very common. They can make great western working horses and all rounders. But neither the draft nor the QH is designed for jumping or collection.
But you won’t know until they are five or so. My Shire cross (1/8 Morgan) has suddenly turned into the hulk at age 6. You also want to see the draft parent if possible: draft horse conformation, can be really appalling for riding purposes: very straight hind ends and upright shoulders. And they might be tanks!
As others have said, Irish Draughts aren’t really ‘drafts’ at all, I would class them more with the Cleveland Bay…but not an expert there.
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Kinda. Cleveland Bay and ID have some shared ancestry but they modern CBs are largely carraige/ riding horses with a emphasis on the driving, the modern ones anyway it’s an ancient breed that pre-dates the actual carriage, back when people used pack horses. They are going to be a bit hotter and have more knee and hock movement than IDs- a lot of CB blood in the GB sporthorse. I personally do not think they are for novices at all, some of the most difficult horses I’ve ridden were CBs or crosses. Like a lot of driving horses where they were going for matched sets they can be a bit genetically alike.
Brabands, Shires, Belgiums etc were bred to plough and pull heavy drays and barges: they are single purpose pushing machines. Only affluent farmers or businesses who had year round work for a big horse who was expensive to shoe and feed kept them, small farmers would have borrowed or rented one if needed. Closed studbooks, combined with the drop in demand have caused genetic problem in most.
Irish Draughts were always far more of an all around horse and probably developed from crossing the Irish hobby which was a light cavalry/ racing horse with the heavier Norman war horses that came over in the 1100s, and local ponies and later with horses from iberia. The breed type coalesced in the 17th/19th century when there was limited need for massive ploughing horses or dray horses in rural ireland and a ride and drive horse that was cheaper to feed and maintain and that could handle the terrain for travel, hunting and riding out but also pull a hay wagon or cart suited most farmers and landowners much better. Pack horses in Ireland have tended to be donkeys not ponies so the local ponies are really just small horses, not like the UK. The studbook is arguably still not 100% closed and certainly wasn’t even 30 years ago. They are pretty ruthless about disqualifying breeding stock that does not move straight or has any kind of medical condition too. That’s also why there is so much variation in the breed for such a small breed and they tend to be relatively healthy.
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I think the QHxdraft can be very nice. I think a Morgan would give too much shoulder and neck weight. I’ve seen a few Morgan/ Friesen crosses and it didn’t bode well for good canters or jumping. Plus the temperament.
My 1st ‘Good Horse’ was a QHXBelgian cross. He competed successfully (several times in the ribbons) at Preliminary. He then crossed over to 3rd level dressage before sadly passing. I also competed at Prelim against a Belgian/TB- he also ribboned frequently.
Now that I’m thinking about having to replace my late CB/3/4TB and my IDSH(also 3/4TB) horses, since I can’t afford more CB Sport horses or IDSH, I’d certainly consider another Belgian cross- actually, if I could find a young-ish Belgian/AppendixQH to bring along, I’d be ecstatic.
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I’m a ID/IDSH owner and soon-to-be breeder and am pretty immersed. That said, and having read the other thread mentioned, there is acres of difference between the imported Irish horse and the American Irish horse because of the difference between Irish and American riders. Full stop. That thread is just not a fair representation of the Irish bred over here. Our horses are bred for the American market.
I don’t need permission to post the below because they are posted publicly and I know the owners would love their stallions to get some extra pub. BUT these are not “back yard bred” horses and most horses with Irish Draught won’t be. But six figured they will NOT be and your trainer is delulu as the kids say if she is pushing your budget like that. On something that can decide to kill itself when the wind changes directions? Absolutely not. You might be in the wrong barn. That’s my opinion tho,and you know what they say about horses and opinions and buttholes (and horses’ buttholes).
Irish horses and cost tho?? There is a weanling I’d love to get my hands on currently priced at $12k. The cheapest one I saw last year was $9k. Started and ready for your daughter? Hmm. Well I wouldn’t sell my under saddle mare for less than about $25k with such low miles as to not even count and she’s not for sale. You could pick up a started and eventing one for your budget tho. On to some Irish horses, since that was your original post question and I like to share 
Kleary’s M&M (Mikey) purebred Class 1 Irish Draught currently competing in eventing
Same stallion with ID gelding Kleary’s Ready Teddy on a beach somewhere in Cali (I think) legging up…
Bell Tower Banrion’s Hero Class 1 ID stallion
https://fb.watch/zO3Nmh-kir/
Same boy, some dressage stills. She has much better ones but they are watermarked so I’m not posting them 
Same breeder has three other stallions (I think?), she’s imported two last year and knows her stuff. The liver chestnut above is her heaviest boy. Mike, the bay above, is an example of a lighter more modern boy. She has a nice grey as well that does eventing, Farraway Quicksilver, but I think I’m cluttering up the thread so I’ll move on.
Now THIS boy, Manu Fortis Proud Chieftain, another Class 1 ID, (Harley), is one who will have the most videos in dressage because he’s in a dressage barn and showing dressage. He is American bred, anything with the Manu Fortis label is American bred and going to be nice. I went to see him in person because he’s only about five hours away. He’s lovely. Very sweet boy. Huge, 17.2 and if he’s less than 1600 pounds I’d be shocked.
ALL of these stallions are calm and sweet. They are handled daily by their owners or trainers but Harley was in a regular rope halter when his ammie owner brought him for me and we had a horse chat session and she led him around the training facility while we talked. No chain. His non-glamour shot that I took 
He’s my first pic for my ID mare.
These are my two, the one with socks is my 5 yo IDSH and the “plain” bay is my 2 yo ID. This was this morning before turnout. Both are spoiled, both are perfectly ammie friendly because I’m a total ninny (confident, but a ninny, I don’t like being overhorsed) and while my IDSH is a bit of a emotional dragon sometimes, she’s nothing compared to what other people deal with.
I don’t ride as much as I should at all but she did get put under saddle winter 2024 and here are very few pictures of her from last summer. I hope to actually ride (or pay a kiddo to ride her) this summer and send her off on a show lease next year because I just don’t have the time. She’s really very nice.
Not all are the same. My IDSH gelding Rory was not ammie friendly and damaged my confidence. His pedigree was peppered with more high-octane type horses (related to Custom Made actually), and if I rode him at least five days a week, and I mean rode-rode like booty cheek lather, he was amazing, but if I didn’t then he was an ADHD crackhead and tore down the barn and himself and could actually be dangerous for turn-in and turn-out. He gave my Dad a black eye more than once because my Dad was too casual with handling horses and would get clocked in the side of the head, whereas I knew if I was putting out a horse-shaped kite that morning. His sire was imported and was very “Irish” and more typical of what the other thread talked about. And he didn’t keep shoes on even with heel guards, shoe savers, bells, nothing. I love this lesson we did in a boot 
If you’re really willing and looking, feel free to PM me. I can try to put you in contact with some people.
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