Draft x and IDSH in eventing

[Against_All_Odds2]

My trainer and I are at odds with horses (nicely).

We have had a number of very fancy, purpose bred imports join the team. I will never be in that snack bracket. I have been causally looking at some more back yard operations of Draft X and 3/4 TB 1/4 ID horses. She has not flat out said no, but I can tell she’d like something with named warmblood pedigrees (and thus more zeros on the price tags)

I am an adult ammy, with a horse crazy daughter, looking at something to develop to novice that we can add to our little family herd.

With all this said, can you show me your draft X, IDSH, backyard bred, pot-cake-ponies. successful novice horses? Bonus if you have some dressage pics or videos for inspiration.

[AskMyAccountant.17]

I would argue there is quite a difference between your draft x and a proper TB/ID. Or, there can be. The Irish Draught, particularly lines still in Ireland, are not going to be nearly as heavy and likewise the TB cross often produces a cross that very much looks like a sport horse. (I actually own a traditional Irish horse, whose right under 25% Irish Draught and competing at the 3*** level. Said horse did have many zero’s in purchase price)

It could be not that your trainer has a bias against the breeding of a horse, but the level/your ability to produce such horse. I would assume even a draught cross, that is amateur friendly, already has the flatwork, bravery, tidiness, soundness, balance that enables an amateur to safely navigate novice is likely not a cheap animal. (In my southeast/Area III area, that horse is mid-fives)

Could it be those types you’re looking at are also green and missing some training buttons if they’ve been on the back-burner? Rather, a warmblood, the ones your trainer has access to, has been produced since riding age, already possesses traits that will be easier for an amateur to produce? That is worth its weight in gold.

Just thinking out loud.

I’ve started many horses for amateurs. It’s heart-breaking and frustrating. Client very similar, bought a rather cheap, 4yo draught x. If this horse had been handled from foaling, started a little younger, been out and about, one the price would have been triple and maybe a fit. But, the horse hadn’t been touched at all likely since birth and was forcefully pushed in trailer and arrived at my farm. Yes, I started the horse under-saddle, but then also due to budget in 30-days went back to amateur who was nervous and we ended up selling in 6-months after the horse bolted and rider fell off. We replaced with a very boring looking but safe TB. (I tell my amateurs, buy boring. We can stick a bonnet on them and it’s not boring when you and your daughter confidently finish course alive and in the ribbons)

[Against_All_Odds2]

We are purposely shopping for a started 3-5 year old. I have produced all of my horses with the current (backyard) QH going BN/N. We just need a second one!

I mean no offence; here (Canada) there are a lot of ID being advertised without a known line in Ireland or paper trail at all. They are just listed as Irish Draught in the sales ads. Thats more what I meant by back yard types.

[beowulf]

While they’re lumped together often they’re quite different. There was a recent thread about this, the Draught being a misnomer and the Irish Xs being rather sharp. I think a TBxDraft generally speaking is a much easier project for the average amateur to bring along.

Reading between the lines, if your trainer is expecting a commission she may not be happy about you looking on your own time. I experienced it inadvertently years ago, an ex-barnmate (I moved, we stayed friends) was looking for a BN packer for her daughter; I told her she could take one of mine for the season. The trainer pulled me aside and let me have it. In hindsight, I forget that some event barns are really regimented with HJ Model these days and proprietary about their clients.

Back in the early 2000s “American Warmbloods” (Draft x TB or QH, sometimes WB) were very popular and successful BN-T. They still are in some fox hunting circles; the 7/8th TB / Clyde (or Belgian, or Perch) is a tried and true model for a brave and game hunt horse. If they can hunt they can do what you’re looking for. I knew many that went on to be event horses, usually topping out at Training.

[Janet]

At Training level, I have been successful with
TB
TB x QH
T x Connemara
AngloArab x Trak
Anglo-Irish x Selle Francais (he did not want to be an eventer, but made somene else a great hunt horse)

My sister’s 2003 Eventing Mare of the Year, Sportscar, came off the meat truck as a wenling.

[Annie10]

She was one amazing horse

[Lusoluv]

Any sound, athletic horse with a good brain can go Novice. Grade horse, draftX, WB, TB, etc. Talk to your trainer. Be very clear about your budget and “needs list” for your next horse. If this transparency on your part creates tension on her part, I would be looking for a new trainer!

[BayBondGirl]

My unregistered Percheron X (was told WB on the other half but we’ll never know) taking me to Training level; she was 19 or 20. She was happy doing Prelim before I got her when she was 15.

She always placed in the ribbons and always went double clear in both SJ and XC. She hunted to hounds with me too. I’ve never had so many compliments on a horse when I was out on her! 15/10, irreplaceable horse.

I’m now bringing along a young Clydesdale X WB (papered) who I’m hoping will be half the horse my mare was! She’s only 5 and has the temperament of a gentle kids pony; I’ve never worked with a young horse before but I’ve done everything by myself on this mare since she was a yearling. Her brain is 10/10.

I used to be a TB girl, now I’m ruined by the Draft X’s… They are just so honest and amateur-safe!

[MapleFarm]

I do not event, but just wanted to add that my draftX (Percheron x TB) is lovely. My only complaint is that she is very big (18.2 and about 2000lbs). She is not as amateur friendly as I expected; she’s incredibly smart, but not hot. She can be tricky. I rode her sire on trails etc as a young horse (the TB), and he was easier! She’s scared of nothing - I watched her chase two bear cubs up a tree.

[Equibrit]

You may find this of interest;

Save the Irish Sport Horse - Eventing Nation - Three-Day Eventing News,...

[BayBondGirl]

What a beauty

[Amberley]

If your trainer thinks that ID crosses are some kind of lower class eventers you need a new trainer because she has no idea what she’s talking about. Now some of the well known sport horse type lines can be a bit sharp and strong for a mother- daughter type so that may be her concern but they are and have been consistently in the top level of eventing for 60+ years.

The unrecorded breeding is not a big deal and is not “back yard” poor breeding. There are major issues with how the irish horse board dealt with unrecorded breeding and uninspected horses that led a lot of people to just not bother dealing with registration. And now the horses may not be eligible. It means basically nothing in regards to quality, just if they are being bred for export or more the hunt/ EU market.

Heavy draft crosses (Percheron, Belgian, shire) can make good eventers but tend to have a hard time staying sound with a lot of galloping and jumping.

I’d love to know where you are finding this ultra cheap Irish crosses in the USA because I’d buy a few myself. They are way overpriced here IMHO.

[Against_All_Odds2]

I never said ultra cheap nor lower class. I said she’d prefer I find something with a named, traceable pedigree. The backyard horses I am referring to are 2X,XXX for something that may or may not be started. She feels the ones I have found are too clunky and because they are young we have no idea how they’ll do in the dressage.

The new imports on the team are 6 figures.

[dmveventer]

@Amberley

The unrecorded breeding is not a big deal and is not “back yard” poor breeding.

I wonder if the “backyard” language is what’s causing the communication problems with the trainer. I’ve only ever heard that used in a negative way, if someone told me they were seeking out backyard breeders for a prospect that would definitely raise my eyebrows. That’s different from looking at off-breeds and crosses in general, you can find plenty of those in reputable eventing programs.

Nice ammy-friendly prospects aren’t cheap though, even without a fancy pedigree. Depending on your budget it may not be about the breed at all but whether your price range is realistic for what you want.

[trubandloki]

@Against_All_Odds2

I never said ultra cheap nor lower class. I said she’d prefer I find something with a named, traceable pedigree. The backyard horses I am referring to are 2X,XXX for something that may or may not be started. She feels the ones I have found are too clunky and because they are young we have no idea how they’ll do in the dressage.

The new imports on the team are 6 figures.

OK, so she is looking a specific horse and saying that specific horse has reasons why she thinks it will not do well.
That is kind of different than just saying all crosses are bad.

At the age you are looking, I would think a trainer can tell basically how the horse moves on its own so how that will equate to being able to do that level of dressage.

[Against_All_Odds2]

Maybe should have used “home breeder” or “hobby breeder”. I didn’t realize backyard had such a negative connotation!

[Amberley]

It’s really unclear here if you are talking about horses located in Ireland, the US or Canada.

Small breeders are the norm in Ireland and most of them know their horses pedigree perfectly well. If you are looking at unstarted or recently backed 3 and 4yos in Ireland that are selling for 5-figures on the open market those are going to be nice horses. That’s a high price.

If you are looking in the USA, most american breeders register their babies, pretty much all unless it was a one-off foal. but the inspections are few and far between which means that it’s hard to get breeding stock inspected which means you cannot register the foals, can only get a CoB which again- not a big deal. Pedigree is recorded.

In Canada the breeders somehow manage to register and inspect pretty much everything but some still won’t be able to.

If you are looking at heavy draft crosses (Irish draughts are not heavy drafts) then yeah those won’t be registered anywhere because there is no registry for them other than maybe some catch-all like the American warmblood. Those are mostly being purpose bred for pack strings, hunting and ranching etc. so no-one really cares as they aren’t planning to breed them.

6-figures is insane for what you want. Basically any sound horse or pony can do novice.

[dmveventer]

It sounds like your trainer may not be the best fit for what you’re shopping for. If she usually trades in 6 figure horses and that’s where her connections and network are (and more importantly, the type of commission she expects) she may not be willing to put in the effort at your price range, or have breed bias as you suspect. There are plenty of examples of the type of horse you’re looking for being successful at the lower levels of eventing, which any trainer that’s been around in the sport would know, so I doubt you’ll change her mind by pointing that out.

Have you had a serious conversation with her about your budget? If you haven’t been firm about your max budget and your must-have criteria I would start there and see what she says. Low- to mid-fives should be plenty for what you’re looking for, so if she tries to tell you otherwise you’re probably better off finding someone else to help you shop.

[NaturallyHappy]

@trubandloki

@Against_All_Odds2

I never said ultra cheap nor lower class. I said she’d prefer I find something with a named, traceable pedigree. The backyard horses I am referring to are 2X,XXX for something that may or may not be started. She feels the ones I have found are too clunky and because they are young we have no idea how they’ll do in the dressage.

The new imports on the team are 6 figures.

OK, so she is looking a specific horse and saying that specific horse has reasons why she thinks it will not do well.
That is kind of different than just saying all crosses are bad.

It sounds, to me anyway, that your trainer may have your best interest at heart if she says a specific horse might be too clunky. We’ve had some very nice draft crosses over the years that we fox hunted. We also had a couple that would trip over a pole and just fall down - no self preservation. We did not hunt those😀.

[Heinz_57]

I sold a draft cross (thought to be Percheron x TB, but really anyone’s guess) some years ago that was schooling 2nd level and jumping 3’. His new owner was dressage only, took him to GP and got all her medals. He was basically the epitome of ammy-friendly - I took him XC schooling when he’d only jumped a handful of jumps at home, and he just happily popped over whatever I pointed him at. Just a really reasonable guy in most situations.

I agree with the sentiment that most breeds of horses can go Novice and get around successfully. It sounds like what your trainer wants is something that has the dressage moves to WIN, pretty easily. Is that your goal too?

I’m in the US, but I see plenty of ads for horses with show records, decently competitive at BN and scope for N in the price range you’ve mentioned. Usually TBs, of course.