@rjr - I think the difference here between your experience and the OP’s is that she is expressing confusion over how to use this tool and her coach is not doing much to clarify that - which means one of two things: either the coach doesn’t really understand what she’s doing or the coach does but is unable to break this down for her student. Either way, not a good use of draw reins.
merrygoround, that’s another way of looking at it, for sure - because with kids most don’t care how the horse gets there, just that they do and on the correct lead, so the nose tipped to the outside forces the balance to the outside hind but since no horse is going to “lift” into the canter by being asked in this way (which is really what we want by channeling that outside hind), they run into it completely on the forehand using the inside fore.
I see a lot of adults who still get canter transitions this way.
Abbie.S- I think the scary part happens when a trainer, struggling to get the canter on a horse tells you that that is what they are doing. And its one of their students horses. Not dressage discipline, H/J.:rolleyes:
I don’t use draw reins myself, but I don’t think they are evil either. Depends on the situation.
Honestly somethings a mechanical fix can sometimes make a huge difference with a horse if used by a skilled trainer or rider.
That said, this does not appear to be the case here and I would be concerned as well.
A better approach would be to use side reins and a lunge line. Get the horse super balanced in the transitions without the rider. Then apply the rider. Side reins will let the horse figure it out and gain strength. It will also clarify how much of this is rider induced.
I do find it to be a red flag that a trainer would tell a rider with a few months of dressage under her belt to be using draw reins, especially a rider with a western background because contact would be a relatively new concept.
OP, why don’t you ask your trainer to give you a few lunge lessons so you can get a feel of what a canter depart is like? I suspect that your trainer was trying to teach you canter depart while trying to keep everything sort of organized. It’s difficult to get a good feel while the horse throw her head up like a giraffe. It’s like a vicious cycle. It doesn’t matter it started with the horse, or the rider. So yeah, I can totally see why she wanted to use draw reins. Not that it is correct, just that it is one of the tools she uses.
I think most of the posters are correct in regard to draw reins. However, I also think that they are speaking from the perspective of a more experienced rider.
Get on a lunge line. Make sure the horse is straight when you ask for the depart. Absolutely no this funny business of horse’s shoulder popping out. Use a lot of outside rein to straighten that neck/shoulder if it pops out. Give up your inside rein if you have to. At this stage, it’s better to err on the safe side, where the horse counter bend (bend to outside) than bending inside. Once the horse is straight, put both reins on inside hand, and see whether you are brave enough to reach your outside hand backward to the horse’ butt. That will put you in a proper position (inside hip forward, outside hip back). If you feel insecure, use your inside hand to hold on to the pummel. Then, canter. Yeah, it will feel awkward first, but just try to enjoy this weird sensation. You can take the rein back when you get a better feel.
Thank you everyone! Such a wealth of knowledge here!
I’m scared to fire my trainer, it would change everything… I really like the ladies at the barn, my horse’s living situation, and so far the instruction has felt positive. I don’t see her clientele progressing much, but I’m kind of on my own, as I work full time and the other riders are retired folks with lots of time to spend riding. I see her offering shows (on our weekly emails) but don’t hear of anyone actually showing (other than her).
I will say the horses in the barn (I board in a larger pen outside) are HORRIBLY behaved, kicking and screaming at mealtimes, lunging out into the aisles when I walk my mare through (I have my whip ready for this). Most are geriatric geldings.
She currently has her own horse and a project for sale. She demonstrated the use of draw reins on this sale horse: draw back and release, ask for canter at the release. Her quote was “when you’ve got the draw reins you’ve got them.” And some other stuff I won’t repeat just for shock value lol.
My plan right now is to say, no more draw reins. “Trainer, I don’t feel comfortable using draw reins on my sweet 7 yo mare who has been nothing but willing. It is not a critique of your methods, I just don’t choose this for my own training. I am not concerned with how long it takes to fix, and I would like more instruction on the use of my seat and legs to work on this hole.”
And see what she says. Does this sound reasonable?
Good things she has done: helped my hands immensely. Strengthened our bond. Developed an understanding of contact. Developed an understanding of bend, suppleness, submission. I have taken seat lessons on a schoolmaster horse a couple times and did very well.
I guess the bottom line for me is what is best for my horse. I turned to dressage from barrel racing because I wanted to promote her longevity. I do still ride Western on a long rein between dressage lessons just to give her mind and body a break.
She’s a 16’2" QH, built straight. Eventually I’d like to try Western Dressage.
You are an experienced rider. You know what a horse feels like. Dressage really isnt so different from any other riding. Western tends to have a light contact and longer rein so keep the contact and shorten the rein. Try for a canter in the school, going large rather than on a circle. Use the corners to help. The horse will bend around the corner, ask for the strike off. You know what it feels like, you understand timing so just do it with a slightly higher head carriage and a shorter rein but with a giving hand. Use your voice to help.
A novice horse and rider on a 20m circle with draw reins sounds like a miserable situation destined for unhappiness.
That seems pretty reasonable. You might ask about whether she can think of alternative ways of working through this issue with you, just to keep things focused on moving forward and show that you still value her expertise, instead of dwelling on the difference of opinion about draw reins.
It sounds like you’ve given serious thought to the situation and have enough experience to sort out what is working well for you from what is not. Trust your gut.
Also, OP, you might want to edit the part of this latest post where you list her credentials … the cut/paste you have now reveals your trainer’s identity, which you might not want to do given the sensitivity of this topic.
If no one else is progressing much, you are not magically going to be the one person who does.
Your money will progress from your wallet to hers; your riding will go nowhere.
She currently has her own horse and a project for sale. She demonstrated the use of draw reins on this sale horse: draw back and release, ask for canter at the release. Her quote was “when you’ve got the draw reins you’ve got them.” And some other stuff I won’t repeat just for shock value lol.
How much are these horses for sale for? Can she at least train a horse to the mid/upper market? I’m not saying everyone has to be making up $250k horses, but a professional dressage trainer should be able to make up a $75k horse and get other people to actually pay it.
If her product isn’t worth more than $20k ever what makes you think your horse will magically get fully developed with her?
My plan right now is to say, no more draw reins. “Trainer, I don’t feel comfortable using draw reins on my sweet 7 yo mare who has been nothing but willing. It is not a critique of your methods, I just don’t choose this for my own training. I am not concerned with how long it takes to fix, and I would like more instruction on the use of my seat and legs to work on this hole.”
And see what she says. Does this sound reasonable?
Sure, it sounds perfectly reasonable, but you expecting her to have knowledge does not mean she will magically actually know how to train. If she knew how to install a canter depart without using drawreins she would already be teaching you how to install a decent canter depart without draw reins.
Good things she has done: helped my hands immensely. Strengthened our bond. Developed an understanding of contact. Developed an understanding of bend, suppleness, submission. I have taken seat lessons on a schoolmaster horse a couple times and did very well.
I guess the bottom line for me is what is best for my horse. I turned to dressage from barrel racing because I wanted to promote her longevity. I do still ride Western on a long rein between dressage lessons just to give her mind and body a break.
She’s a 16’2" QH, built straight. Eventually I’d like to try Western Dressage.
OP, you’re doing that thing where you’re riding with a trainer who uses gimmicks and no one in the program is progressing, but you continue to make excuses for it and hand over your money. There is probably another trainer down the road beating her head against the wall that people continue to fork over money to this trainer to blindly dabble around at the lower levels, who could move you and your horse right up the levels without getting stumped by the trot to canter transition.
Please let’s try to have some better expectations and not reward incompetence with our checkbooks.
We can all help make the dressage world a better place.
You have to remember not only are you learning a new riding style but so is your horse it takes time. If you aren’t comfortable riding in draw reins don’t. When I first got my horse she didn’t have the muscles for draw reins so we just put a standing martingale on. After she worked up we did use draw reins. If used correctly they are a good training aid but they can go wrong very easily. If you like your trainer don’t feel the need to change it’s all about you being happy. Just explain to your trainer that you don’t feel ready to ride in draw reins. My trainer always understood and would work with us some other way.
I think the previous advice of trying her on the lunge with voice commands is a good one. You can also put side reins on the lunge - not tightly - her nose still on the outside of the vertical and she can learn to balance herself. Increasing and decreasing the walk and trot is great exercise to help develop balance and fitness.
I am also not really a fan of draw reins, especially since you seem unclear about what she is trying to say.
If you want to learn dressage, you need a dressage trainer. This one is clearly not. And while it’s easy to get caught in the barn comfort zone, it sure doesn’t sound like a great place to me from the way you describe it. Sometimes you don’t know how bad things are until you get to where there are good things.
OP, I commend you for doing right by your mare. While I get that you are comfortable where you are now, maybe it’s time to branch out a bit?
Not sure where you are at, but if you have an active dressage scene in your area, look into trailering out to a different barn for a lesson. Don’t be afraid to call up local dressage instructors and tell them that you are interested in western dressage and that you’d like some help. I’m guessing you will find at least one who will work with you - western saddle and all.
Also try and audit a clinic (ask first if this is OK). You don’t have to be a superstar with a 100K warmblood to get a lot out of a clinic, especially if the clinician is someone who works with riders and horses of all abilities.
OP, be so very thankful that you have good instincts! Not much to add, but I recently tried a new trainer. I liked who she worked with, but that’s not always a guarantee they’ll be a match, but happily really pleased. I practiced my introduction in my head, because some trainers push to execute the movement, no matter what. So crank/spank and/or buy a $$$ horse with training until bad riding undoes it, rinse/repeat. Sad I fear that so much in trying a trainer, but I do, because they are far too common.
My intro focused on me wanting to learn “how.” I said I’d rather do an Intro test classically and correctly than muscle through a bad 4th level test. I want to learn how to train a horse to GP, in theory. I know with time/talent realities, I’m probably not training to GP, but I want everything correct as if I am getting there.
Draw reins can have a place - having worked at sales barns, I used them as emergency brakes on some horses (better than harsh bit because I could ride without them), and for helping retrain horses with huge underneck muscles. But that’s on sales horses, not my personal horses.
I hope there are better options around for you, but keep educating yourself so you can make informed choices. Check out clinic videos or articles - Jeremy Steinberg is great advocate of correct dressage, for example. Good luck!!!
I would also suggest maybe audit some clinics or bring your horse to some clinics. It would give you some new, fresh knowledge and you can only benefit from it as long as it is a well known, knowledgeable trainer. Good luck in your endeavors and bravo for reaching out!
OP - your profile says “California.” California is a big place, but I can assure you that there are MANY, MANY competent dressage trainers not too far away. You really need to broaden your horizons. I’m glad you are happy with the other boarders, but there are other fish in the sea. Please haul out for a lesson with another trainer. I’ll be it will be eye opening for you.
In the canter transition try giving the inside rein. Instead of pulling on a draw rein.
All reins in the outside rein and draw rein in the inside hand. Over 40 years of lessons with sooooo many instructors and I have never seen or heard of that.
