Dressage Freestyle - Updates

[Blugal]

[QUOTE=ammye;8799823]
I’m a hunter/jumper rider, so although I know what the movements are, I’m not at all versed with the technicalities (especially at this level, where all the horses and riders are so accomplished!) I started watching about halfway through the freestyle. Everyone was impressive, but I thought Desperados (eventual bronze) was another level completely than what came before. And then Valegro came in - it wasn’t so much what the ride was, but what it wasn’t - there were no moments of disharmony. I did notice at the collected walk that she seemed to be bumping his mouth, and immediately after that the commentator noted she was keeping him from falling out of a good collected walk (not that I noticed any falling out of such walk…) And then after that ride, everyone else just seemed less polished, less precise - I don’t think they were compared to those who went before (as the scores reflect), but watching Valegro definitely reset my mind such that the bar was higher than it was before. (Note I’ve seen his tests before, but I haven’t watched 10 rides in a row with him sandwiched in the middle.) It was really something else in comparison.[/QUOTE]

I agree - I just watched a few of the other rides tonight and it’s when you contrast them to Valegro that you realize how perfect he and Charlotte are. They basically make it look easy, until you watch others and realize how hard it really is.

[DownYonder]

Nice synopsis, J-Lu.

As for music - I had to watch most of it on USA network because NBC and CBC had crapped out on the live stream. So I couldn’t hear the music very well due to Melanie Smith Taylor’s incessant yapping. But I have watched Charlotte and Laura ride their freestyles at other competitions, and I am not a fan of Laura’s music, nor of Charlotte’s new music. (Judy Reynolds had the most fun music - 60’s pop!).

That said, Charlotte and Valegro absolutely deserved their win. They were in a league of their own. Even Isabell acknowledged it:
“I really enjoy competing against the best, that’s what makes us all better, and Charlotte and Valegro really deserve this” (as quoted on Eurodressage).

And I also totally agree with those who have commented that top international freestyles are so much nicer to watch these days - the harmony and lightness and sympatico between horse and rider is tons better than a decade ago.

[Cat_Tap]

I could be way off base but could the" change in harmony and lightness" be due to the influence of the current top riders and trainers? I was thinking of some controversial training methods and certain trainer of some years ago.

[Kerrysmom818]

@Beentheredonethat;8799129

I “think” the Germans were overscored. Desperados does have something going on behind. The BBC commentators commented on it on both of the GP tests, and yet she still got 9’s.

Thank you! I knew I saw something. At least I’m not the only one!

[keysfins]

[QUOTE=Cat Tap;8800012]
I could be way off base but could the" change in harmony and lightness" be due to the influence of the current top riders and trainers? I was thinking of some controversial training methods and certain trainer of some years ago.[/QUOTE]

Let’s hope so! I also hope we will continue to see more correct gaits and movements, rather than the “flash” of extravagant leg movers that have been rewarded in the arena in the past. Maybe a better chance to stay sound into their later years for the horses!

[SnicklefritzG]

[QUOTE=Tiger Horse;8800020]
Thank you! I knew I saw something. At least I’m not the only one![/QUOTE]

Judging from the comments about possible overscoring it sounds like there were Pokemons at K, E, H, M, B, F, and C, with the latter having the highest CP of all of them.

[CrotchetyDQ]

[QUOTE=capalypinto;8799782]
I know that this may seem weird, but was wondering what made the winning ride so much better than the others. I felt that some of the lighter looking horses seem to have much more suspension, lightness, and expressiveness than the winning ride. I am genuinely interested in what sets Valegro apart from the others. I am no expert in dressage and am genuinely interested, since to me, he doesn’t seem to possess the knee action and expressiveness of some of the other horses.[/QUOTE]

I have not read the rest of the thread, and someone may have already said it, but having seen Valegro for years on video then seeing him live in Vegas, what you see on video is NOTHING like what you see in person. Valegro is one of those amazing horses that video does not show even a fraction of his quality, and the two dimensional nature of the medium flattens everything to (relative) mediocrity.

If you think he is incredible on video, then you will be reduced to tears seeing Valegro in the flesh. I was, and was privileged to have the opportunity.

[Zonderpaard]

Those moments before a half pass, when she organizes him with shoulder fore then begins to send him sideways, he wraps around her inside leg so completely, even his tail is bent. Extraordinary.

[see_u_at_x]

[QUOTE=CrotchetyDQ;8800142]
I have not read the rest of the thread, and someone may have already said it, but having seen Valegro for years on video then seeing him live in Vegas, what you see on video is NOTHING like what you see in person. Valegro is one of those amazing horses that video does not show even a fraction of his quality, and the two dimensional nature of the medium flattens everything to (relative) mediocrity.

If you think he is incredible on video, then you will be reduced to tears seeing Valegro in the flesh. I was, and was privileged to have the opportunity.[/QUOTE]

I agree with this 100%. When I saw him compete a year ago, my friend and I said that same thing - video doesn’t do the horse justice. Everything about them is just so flowing and effortless looking and yet completely rock solid. It’s even easier to see why he’s so far above and beyond every other horse out there. I had tears in my eyes, too, after their winning freestyle last year, and I certainly wasn’t the only one.

[netg]

[QUOTE=capalypinto;8799782]
I know that this may seem weird, but was wondering what made the winning ride so much better than the others. I felt that some of the lighter looking horses seem to have much more suspension, lightness, and expressiveness than the winning ride. I am genuinely interested in what sets Valegro apart from the others. I am no expert in dressage and am genuinely interested, since to me, he doesn’t seem to possess the knee action and expressiveness of some of the other horses.[/QUOTE]

@Beentheredonethat;8799787

If you look at him, he really is in a whole different world. He is a bigger, heavier horse, but is super light and has amazing articulation of the joints. His extended work is stunning. He has power and lightness with absolute relaxation and steadiness. You don’t realize how completely obedient he is until you see him make a rare bobble where he isn’t 100% on the aides. That is so rarified you almost never see it. If you put his ride side by side with another, you will see it.

[QUOTE=CrotchetyDQ;8800142]I have not read the rest of the thread, and someone may have already said it, but having seen Valegro for years on video then seeing him live in Vegas, what you see on video is NOTHING like what you see in person. Valegro is one of those amazing horses that video does not show even a fraction of his quality, and the two dimensional nature of the medium flattens everything to (relative) mediocrity.

If you think he is incredible on video, then you will be reduced to tears seeing Valegro in the flesh. I was, and was privileged to have the opportunity.[/QUOTE]

I will say his extended work isn’t as good as it was - and the judges did score him lower on extended work in the GP/GPS. (I couldn’t tell from camera angles in the freestyle, and don’t know what he was scored by movement there.) However, I agree about seeing him in person. I also saw him in Vegas and was surprised how clearly he seemed to deserve 10% more than every other horse. The harmonious feel, power, ease and flow is just WAY above everyone else. They still aren’t perfect - and I could get into thoughts on score inflation, but the margin between them and the other horses in Vegas was deserved, and it wouldn’t surprise me if for those there in person it felt the margin was too small in Rio.

[mp]

[QUOTE=CrotchetyDQ;8800142]
I have not read the rest of the thread, and someone may have already said it, but having seen Valegro for years on video then seeing him live in Vegas, what you see on video is NOTHING like what you see in person. Valegro is one of those amazing horses that video does not show even a fraction of his quality, and the two dimensional nature of the medium flattens everything to (relative) mediocrity.

If you think he is incredible on video, then you will be reduced to tears seeing Valegro in the flesh. I was, and was privileged to have the opportunity.[/QUOTE]

@see u at x;8800219

I agree with this 100%. When I saw him compete a year ago, my friend and I said that same thing - video doesn’t do the horse justice. Everything about them is just so flowing and effortless looking and yet completely rock solid. It’s even easier to see why he’s so far above and beyond every other horse out there. I had tears in my eyes, too, after their winning freestyle last year, and I certainly wasn’t the only one.

I was in Las Vegas, too, and was curious to see if this pair really was that much better than the others or if they’d had a couple of good goes and the halo effect was kicking in.

Yes, they are that much better. The smoothness, the elasticity, the harmony, the power. It’s almost beyond description. Seeing Charlotte and Valegro in person confirmed it. I wonder if we’ll see another pair like them again ever. I hope so.

[Foxtrot_s]

Saw Valegro in Aachen last year - they make such a team and that is rare.But I like to think more and more of the rides are a pleasure to watch.

These big horses are taught to be very light and influenced by some fairly small people. At our Hunt balls there was a man who was, dare I say it, huge - maybe 300 pounds. He danced as light as a feather, beautifully and fun to dance with.

Any shots of the warm-up area or are they still forbidden?

[candico]

I think the overall quality of horses to choose from has improved tremendously. Honestly, the horses in the past that have been under scrutiny were kind of the unlikely or un-ideal prospects for several reasons that these riders somehow managed to turn into successful Grand Prix horses. Now, even with the variety of conformation, much more of that “perfect” dressage horse is available, so hence an easier time producing brilliant rides. Not saying they all had easy journeys, but I don’t think anyone is clamoring to clone Salinero where I think we would all like a carbon copy of Valegro.

Easy to forget, but many of these riders and trainers are still the same people that were criticized relentlessly. Yes, the overall lightness in contact is much improved, but I think they are on different types of horses for the most part as well.

I also think overall, that there is more leg action in the past, but this is because of better athleticism, articulation of the joints, and use of entire body. These horses are scopey, schwungy, boundy, elastic, powerful, and elegant all rolled into one. I bet if you took horses from the 80’s and time travelled them here you would see a tremendous difference in quality.

As far as the freestyles though, and not to take away anything from these riders, and yes I realize this will be unpopular, but I do miss Anky’s freestyles. Not sure, but it doesn’t seem like many or any are using Cees Slings music compositions. To me, those were the most beautiful and dramatic enhancements to the dance of dressage and I missed that in these games. Even Adelinda’s Nutcracker music from London, and Imke’s music with Sunrise still reign superior to me than the music selection for these games.

I also still miss Totilas and his charisma. I love these current horses, but there was something about how Toto seemed to address the crowds that was like no other.

But overall, lot’s to like and look forward to. Already dreaming of seeing some of these younger pairs continue to develop and come together against Zonik, Farouche, Rosamunde, and Emilio in the near future.

[Velvet]

I rewatched Charlotte’s London Freestyle last night and really did NOT like the music. It was a mish mash of well known movie themes/music. Really felt disjointed to me because I am one of those who love movie scores and could tell they were all over the map with the movies. To me, it made it feel super chopped up and not flowing. Not the ride, but the music. Kind of like they shoe horned in the music to fit the test in a way that was not great. Which would, for me, have impacted how I would have scored it. I want to have music be more like figure skating. Not all over the map and swapping out constantly. I’d rather have it not exactly on the footfall, but more flowing.

JMO!

[Foxtrot_s]

^^^ all this - we are watching a sport changing as we view…and for the better.
Totals came onto the stage as a phenom, blew me away. Now my current future star is Farouche…and Rosamund…and…

I go back to Alerich and Reiner Klimke - it was my standard back in the day and he is still a hero, but his horse is way different to what he would be riding today.

I’m getting to really love dressage and cannot say I would have said that a while back.

[Sandy_M]

[QUOTE=Velvet;8800585]
I rewatched Charlotte’s London Freestyle last night and really did NOT like the music. It was a mish mash of well known movie themes/music. Really felt disjointed to me because I am one of those who love movie scores and could tell they were all over the map with the movies. To me, it made it feel super chopped up and not flowing. Not the ride, but the music. Kind of like they shoe horned in the music to fit the test in a way that was not great. Which would, for me, have impacted how I would have scored it. I want to have music be more like figure skating. Not all over the map and swapping out constantly. I’d rather have it not exactly on the footfall, but more flowing.

JMO![/QUOTE]

I agree to an extent, but I would rather have something like that (Great Escape theme/ Pomp & Circumstance/Chimes of Big Ben) than the elevator music composed and totally fitted to the horse’s gaits but also totally uninspired. My recollection of the freestyle music I most liked in the past was Brentina’s Gershwin medley (Strike up the Band!) and Balkhenhol’s Spanish-themed freestyle that included Madonna’s Isla Bonita.

[Beentheredonethat]

I didn’t like Valegro’s London music, either. I know it was all English inspired, but it seemed really distracting to me.

I’m looking at some of them again, and I really like Legolas’ music. It really fits him and has humor. Brentina’s “girl” music from the World Cup was fabulous. I remember seeing Edward Gal and Lingh there, and his music made the hairs on my arm stand up. Fuego’s music was fabulous. Way back when when the World Cup was in Burbank, I remember seeing Monica Theodorescue doing Hollywood themed music, which I think was so smart. I think some people were trying to do Rio theme music here, but I don’t think it worked well.

There does seem to be some kind of lull or something in music all of the sudden, where it’s just not working.

[Blugal]

I was quite disappointed in some of the music - they have probably spent $10 or $15k on these music scores and they are still flat and boring.

There was one I watched today (catching up) that had some promise - Anna Kasprzak (Denmark) since the music was bridging the gaps of the different trot tempos. But then it seemed pretty disjointed between trot and canter music.

This seems like a project for the musicians out there - perhaps a much too expensive project - to compose music that has a theme and brings the freestyle together.

ETA: Fuego’s music was terrific!

[Beentheredonethat]

I just watched Verdades’ and Wehegold’s again, and I like Verdades music and not Wehe’s, which just seems a bunch of cut and paste. What I think is inspiring is when the music comes from some kind of movie and is relatively uncut. All of the cutting back and forth to exactly match the gaits seems to really water it down.

You know, there are millions of 12 year olds out there that are obsessed with cutting and making music. It’s all over Youtube. We just need to use all of that creativity and get it into the freestyles. If you look on Youtube, there are all kinds of composers who make really good music that works as a whole piece for background.

[greysfordays]

I really loved the canter section of Charlotte’s music from how to train your dragon, particularly the super rousing music for the extensions going into the soft feathery flutes for her magnificent pirouettes. Watching it right now. I don’t know what it is about dressage, but it can absolutely reduce this hunter princess to tears.

to me the best music has some narrative qualities that connect the movements. I think Fuego’s WEG music is a good example where it matches footfalls but it quite fluid across transitions in movements. I watch that whenever I’m feeling a bit blue.