What is a good resource for learning how to spot conformation that is conducive to dressage?
What tips or insights do you have, and what do you look for in a good dressage horse?
What things do you avoid at all costs?
Bonus points (of no actual value :lol: ) if you include pictures or links to pictures.
http://www.jwequine.com/functional-conformation/
But you can have perfect conformation and the ability is lacking or vice versa.
Lot’s of horses have decent conformation but extrodiary talent.
Thanks for opening this. I industriously recorded comments/articles from yesterday’s thread on conformation of event horse (with comparisons to dressage). Article posted by s’fish further clarifies.
It took me a while to find it again but this is my fav. Article on conformation
http://americantrakehner.com/trakehners/conformation/SHCpart1.htm
If you have any inspections nearby, attend them - great (and free) education on conformation. There are plenty of books out there on the subject, but I find seeing the real horses, and seeing the conformation, then the gaits in real time is very useful. I’ve attended Hanoverian, RPSI, Old NA, GOV, and AWS and have enjoyed all of them.
For me, as someone who is truly no expert in conformation, the simplified version of what I look for is this:
My last horse was long-backed, long-necked, and was straight behind. Because of that, we definitely struggled in some regards and the more we progressed, the harder it was for him to hold up to the work. I adored that horse and he is absolutely wonderful with a fabulous brain, but when I was looking for my next horse, I knew that in addition to a great temperament, I wanted a horse with a shorter, stronger back, a shorter neck, and good articulation of the hind legs. So yeah…that might seem simple, but that’s what I primarily look at now based upon my previous experience.
I’d recommend two things.
One is Deb Bennett’s book on conformation, which was originally published as articles in Equus. I like the book because it gives you tools and formulas for evaluating the ratios of different body parts for different jobs, rather than just give a standard short cut like “body must divide into thirds.” In particular, the tools for looking at the angles of the shoulder/neck and haunches were very informative for me, and changed how I looked at horse conformation. She is a professor of paleontology, so her scientific training is in how skeletons affect movement and body. She focuses on trying to see the bones under the skin and muscles.
A good blog by a separate person that has gone dormant but is still accessible, that expanded Deb Bennett’s work, is https://hoovesblog.com/
My second recommendation would be, whenever possible, to get up close to really high-performing horses and study them using what you’ve learned from the book.
I live at the low end of nice horses, which means that I see a lot of so-so OTTBs and WBs. Every once in a while, though, a horse comes through the barn that has really accomplished something, then retired. I have to say, they do look substantially different than the other horses.
The question I’m not qualified to answer, yet, is:
Let’s say you are comparing two 17 hand bay geldings, both with textbook “good conformation,” so similar in height and general heft that other boarders sometimes mix them up. What specific tweaks to the conformation made one (an OTTB) a money-winner on the track, and the other (a well-bred WB) an international Grand Prix horse? Both of them look very different from the other horses in the barn.
I missed my opportunity to grab good conformation photos of both, and measure them up like Deb Bennett instructs. Oh well.
Would anyone care to help me tune my eye by critiquing my horses?
http://i1093.photobucket.com/albums/i432/tackoverload/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20160924_121433116.jpg
http://i1093.photobucket.com/albums/i432/tackoverload/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20160924_122409288.jpg
Hopefully these links work.
I have trouble deciphering shoulder and pelvic angles. I know my paint has a long back and is downhill. I also think the relationship between the lumbosacral and point of the hip is such that he has difficulty in tucking his pelvis and pushing of the ground. He does not track up well and he canters and trots with less separation between his hocks than desirable. Bought for temperament not ability.
24yo TB looks kind of downhill in one picture but really isn’t. I think his shoulder angle is ok. Was a very tidy and athletic jumper in younger years. He has the best canter I’ve ever ridden and he tracks up nicely. Over at the knee. Has definitely lost top line as he has aged. What else? What is good and bad about these two so I can shop better in the future?
I apologize they aren’t stood up perfectly but I was working solo.
These aren’t great pictures because the camera is not being held level, hence the paint looks more downhill than he is, and the TB more uphill.
That said, the paint is still croup-high, and has a weak loin (lots of space between the last rib and the point of hip). His stifle is high. I don’t love his shoulder, the upper arm is rather horizontal, and the shoulder seems small and bunchy, his withers low. And his legs are shortish. I see a horse that might be a functional western horse, maybe a comfortable ride and a good mind, but nothing that says “dressage” to me. Basic dressage training would help him, but I can’t see him going very far in the discipline. I wouldn’t expect him to have either of two things people look for in dressage: naturally big and suspended gaits, or the ability to collect easily.
There is also something funky going on with the front feet. Very upright pasterns, but a much lower angle on the hooves. Are they due for a trim?
TB is losing muscle mass as an aging horse, which makes him look a bit sway back. I’d say he has better loin and hips for his build than the Paint, but he might still be croup high. His upper arm is more vertical, which would give him better scope over fences. His neck has lost muscle tone, but I would discount that in regards to basic conformation. The fall of the mane and the lighting make it a bit harder to tell where his neck really ties on, by which I mean where does the neck bone enter the body and connect to the spine, not what do we see in terms of external muscling on the throat or crest. I think it is possible that his neck ties on quite low on the shoulder. However, his stifle is a bit lower than the Paint, so that could help with collection.
As far as the actual slope of the shoulder blade, these two horses seem about the same. However, the TB has a more upright humerous than the Paint. On both of them, I feel that the shoulder is a bit small, but I realize I tend to think this a lot because I have a mare with a massive shoulder.
His feet are also funky, long toes. I would suggest some attention to what your farrier is doing, since both horses seem to have the toes running forward (which is not the same as being overdue for a trim).
Summing up, I’d say the aging TB has the conformation to go along with a previous career as a nice lower-level hunter/jumper. Basic dressage exercises could help him maintain muscle tone as he ages, but he is doing well for a 24 year old TB, since they don’t seem to be the longest-lived horses around. I would not pick him to try to train “up the levels,” however, at his age.
The Paint sound like a good casual riding horse, husband horse, kid’s horse, but he doesn’t have the conformation for Western performance or for English riding, and your description of how he goes confirms that.
If you want to improve on the TB conformation, I’d say look for a horse that has a neck bone that enters the body higher on the shoulder. Look for a horse that doesn’t appear croup-high. Look for a lower stifle. But more importantly, look at how the horse moves at liberty, and under saddle if the rider is not constricting him too much. You want some natural loft and suspension in the trot, and you want the ability to collect, stop, and turn at liberty. You don’t want a standardbred that gives you the most beautiful floating extended trot in the world, then falls on his face when he reaches the paddock fence and has to turn. But you also don’t want a wonderful little reining quarterhorse who could pirouette all day, but has a scampery, flat-footed gait.
Thank you scribbler! I’m going to have to find a good resource on shoulder angles. I have so much trouble there…I would have incorrectly said these horses have different shoulder angles. Also, I dont understand the horizontal vs vertical upper arm, definitely need to read up on that, thank you. I totally agree the paint has a lot of limitations. He may well be a poster child for what to avoid in the future :lol:
I’ve been watching hundreds of videos of dressage horses for sale recently (European warmbloods and Pure Spanish Breed mostly) since I have a lot of free time (from an injury) and recently lost my horse to colic. Not intending to buy yet, just watching what is on offer and prices.
Most horses have adequate conformations, but you must see them moving. Conformation does not guarantee nice movements. Some others do not have the most nice conformation but move quite right. They may not reach the top levels, but neither will do most horse-buyers regardless of the horse they buy.
And temperament is a MUST unless the rider is experienced enough to deal with very difficult horses, and sometimes, even this combination will not make it.
Hilda Gurney once came to a Sport Horse breeding facility I was involved with/boarded at, and gave a clinic on sport horse breeding and judging. There was one mare who was judged by her to have super conformation (8 or 8.5), but really poor movement (6 or 6.5). She said “the proof is in the pudding” or something like that. We had lots of examples of horses whose conformation correlated with their movement, and some horses where it just didn’t. You just can’t reliably tell.
I’m sure there are outliers in both directions, but wouldn’t you think appropriate conformation is mostly a reliable predictor of suitability or lack thereof? Or is it really that much of a crap shoot?
Google “horse conformation triangle” and check out those photos. They helped me be able to do a basic quick check in my brain on the many horses I see to just help develop my eye.
There are a lot of good resources out there, but by and large I would pay special attention to anything that Dr Hilary Clinton puts out.
Deb Bennett is a great resource as well, but her works should be taken with a grain of salt - I do think that her personal preferences color her perspective on some works.
The general consensus seems to be:
After that, the ideals seem to get a little more muddied; I have seen just about every limb conformation in UL horses. One of the consistent traits, however, seems to be that LS placement and long[er] back.
A good way to develop your eye is to pay attention to stallion conformation online if you cannot attend an inspection. Most websites these days will put a conformation picture out there for prospective breeders.
http://dressagetoday.com/article/anatomy-hindquarters-26465
As another poster said, conformation isn’t everything – but it certainly is cumulative. Most horses that move in a similar manner have similar conformation that enables them to do so.
Conformation is very important, because it enables horses to perform in ways that horses with other conformations will not be able to.
That said, I’ve seen horses with very good conformations in pictures, and then the most awful trot (some professionals riders are gifted enough to hide this from the uneducated eye), or worst, a walk that does not show clearly enough the 4 beat.
And temperament, that is a MUST at least for me as an amateur. A horse that is calm and willing to perform, on top of having a decent conformation and three good gaits is a jewel. A most precious one.
[QUOTE=beowulf;8862382]
There are a lot of good resources out there, but by and large I would pay special attention to anything that Dr Hilary Clinton puts out.
Deb Bennett is a great resource as well, but her works should be taken with a grain of salt - I do think that her personal preferences color her perspective on some works.
The general consensus seems to be:
After that, the ideals seem to get a little more muddied; I have seen just about every limb conformation in UL horses. One of the consistent traits, however, seems to be that LS placement and long[er] back.
A good way to develop your eye is to pay attention to stallion conformation online if you cannot attend an inspection. Most websites these days will put a conformation picture out there for prospective breeders.
http://dressagetoday.com/article/anatomy-hindquarters-26465
As another poster said, conformation isn’t everything – but it certainly is cumulative. Most horses that move in a similar manner have similar conformation that enables them to do so.[/QUOTE]
I do think Deb Bennett is great for the precision with which she looks at skeleton angles, and the angles of joints. I totally trust her to spot a train-wreck horse! But I am still testing out personally whether her more specific recommendations on shoulder angle, hip angle, etc., really affect performance in all cases as much as she says. Also, since she’s not an expert on nutrition or training, she isn’t my first source for information on those topics.
What I learned from her was the importance of the long bones that you can’t actually see, the femur and the humerous, that are hidden inside muscle; how to calculate if the horse is truly “downhill” or “uphill” other than just looking at the withers which can be misleading; and the importance of bones ratios and total length in the hind legs, which means that what we call sickle hocks are really something else. Also the difference between basic conformation, condition, and pathological conditions that change the outline of the horse.
J-Lu, I have also seen those horses that were “perfect” in conformation, and couldn’t move. I’ve seen top judges wowed by beautiful horses, disappointed when they moved. So conformation is part of the formula, but not the whole enchilada.
I’ve also been through several conformation training seminars, and most of them will tell you - watch the horse move before you make any final judgements. And as we learn more and more about confirmation, we update our “Rules”. For example (already mentioned) uphill is not a withers measurement, it is elbow to stifle. Shoulder angle is not the whole formula for front leg reach, freedom of the elbow is a bit part of it. Square horse, rectangular horse, etc.
And some studies have shown us that minor imperfections may actually be a good thing. For example, minor toe-in horses tend to be sounder (according to several studies on the track) then perfectly straight legs - and toe out tends to have the most problems. We have a vet in the area that specializes in soundness in performance horses, and he’s a great resource for this kind of trivia!
The other thing to remember is soft tissue isn’t evaluated so much in conformation - how flexible is the horse, how do they actually use themselves? And of course - the brain. I have seen some amazingly perfect horses, with awesome athletic ability, and a brain that could not handle the rigors of dressage. And I’ve seen some fairly fugly horses, downhill, long loins, cow hocked, and they went all the way. Because they had the desire to work.
Also remember, sometimes those big, loose gaits that score so well at the YH classes and in the lower levels don’t translate so well to collection. ESPECIALLY the walk - how many bad walks do you see at the upper levels? So keep the final goal in mind.
So, yes, learn about conformation, but remember it is just part of a complex formula.
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