Dressage judges Fairness and Honesty vs. Loyalty to trainers/friends

[alibi_18]

I think most judges are really trying to be as partial as possible. I’ve shown and scribed a lot and never felt a judge was unfair deliberately.

Also, judges often have one or two “thing” they want to see/focus on. You just need to figure out who wants what and why.

Of course, there are bad judges, just like there are bad trainers and riders.

The comments you got from your Ex-trainer is something I mosttly hear from riders/trainers who think they know better and never get much good scores in general…

My trainers always told me to analyse my score sheets in a way that would help me improve myself, not to whine about how the judge didn’t understood my riding.

[skydy]

I expect that “riding to suit the judge” would be less likely to have a negative impact on the horse at the mid to upper levels. I expect that most people are already riding their best when they ride a young horse or are themselves riding at the lower levels.
The harmful “riding to suit the judge” I am envisioning is not the sort that takes a judge’s suggestions to improve, but is the kind that changes the way you ride due to the “reputation” of what the judge likes or is thought to like.

[meupatdoes]

@Escada

There are some local schooling shows that I don’t attend if certain L Program Grads are judging. I know I won’t get a fair shake so I don’t bother wasting my money. They hold a grudge if you don’t “toe the line” with the local GMO. I chose not to rejoin the local GMO due to the mega-infighting and overall nastiness. I joined one much farther away with nice folks who didn’t play games with the membership.

I’m a little leery of L graduates bc I’ve seen some that judged harsher than an S judge would.

I’m not really sure what they get out of going to schooling shows where pretty much everyone is an older adult riding 1st level and KILLING people with the scores, but apparently they are blazing a trail for the future of US dressage.

[meupatdoes]

As for “riding to suit the judge.”

Y’all.
It is not that hard to ride with your horse a little lower or a little higher or a little more forward or a little deeper.
The whole point of dressage is for it all to be accessible to you.

So I really do not get the big deal people are making about riding to suit the judge.

I worked for one person who wanted every horse to do the long and low olympics every day. Long and low long and low long and low. Not what I would choose but also not my horses, so I put everyone’s nose in the dirt and that’s how we went around. (If you give me bad training instructions I will follow them. Abusive, no. But if you are ok with nothing ever progressing past training level who am I to argue?)

So for 7 minutes in the show ring just ride around however they like and then give the horse a carrot and go back to your usual programming.

[Smthn_Like_Olivia]

I recently did a schooling show where the judge (none of us knew her) was harder on the better riders. My friend, who’s a lovely rider, part-time trainer rode a Training 3 test on a TB. It was the horses level, not hers. She is currently at 4th level, but the test looked flawless. I just started riding two years ago. Rode Training 1 on my 19yr old Friesian. Both of us are green in dressage. We didn’t get one of the canters, our circle was way too big, and my mare was tense and trying to run through most of it. She got hit with a lot of 6’s. I got a couple 7.5’s and even an 8. We both came out with a 66%. I couldn’t believe it. I felt like the friend was judged harder simply for being a really good rider. Her horse could not have been more relaxed and in sync with her, while me and my mare looked like a couple of old drunk ladies trying to pass a DUI test. Go figure. We went home with 2 blue’s.

[Can_tFindMyWhip]

I think that local politics play into schooling shows pretty frequently. In my area, at least half of the bigger dressage trainers are also L grads, so word gets out about how each judge likes people to ride and horses to go. And every show has judges judging 5 or 6 of their own students.

Having said that, I can only think of one instance where there was some obvious favoritism going on. But it wasn’t so much favoritism as it was the judge had to somehow save face because she was judging her next door neighbor who was flailing around on a horse with a double bridle and calling it 4th level.

I think rated shows are much less political and judges are much more neutral a.) because there are more repercussions if they are found to be not neutral and b.) they aren’t local. The last rated show I was at, all the judges were grumpy at the end of the day because they were stressed out about catching flights back home. No one knew any of the judges well enough to guess what they might like and try to change their style.

There may be examples of BNR’s changing their style to appease judges, but I assume that is because the number of active riders and judges at FEI is so small. They get to know each other like average people get to know their local dressage communities and organizations. Heck, I imagine FEI to be like your typical highly dramatic, highly political GMO.

[netg]

@meupatdoes

I’m a little leery of L graduates bc I’ve seen some that judged harsher than an S judge would.

I’m not really sure what they get out of going to schooling shows where pretty much everyone is an older adult riding 1st level and KILLING people with the scores, but apparently they are blazing a trail for the future of US dressage.

I know when I scribed for an L candidate, the (international judge) instructors repeatedly chided their students for being too harsh. They were routinely 5-10% lower than the real judges, because they were looking for the right flaws to mention - which meant they were only seeing the negative trees, and not the forest. I absolutely think some people are nasty and want to take people down a peg, etc., but so much of judge training is focused on finding the obvious flaws that everything starts to look like an obvious flaw until they have enough experience to widen scope.

[soloudinhere]

There is one judge in my area who I just won’t show under anymore. No matter what, no matter how good the ride was, I will never get better than a 60 from her. She penalized me so harshly at training level that I submitted the test for review. Another rider showed my horse in front of her and yup, 58%.

It’s too bad people keep hiring judges who aren’t shy about their obvious preferences or inability to speak a number above a 7, but I theorize that the reason they are so popular is because the good judges are already booked.

[RedHorses]

A couple of points. I doubt very much that there is much adjusting the ride to suit the judge at FEI level. How many FEI level tests have only one judge?

And there will be a natural bias towards students simply because the student will have learned what to focus on in general from that coach/judge and will be more likely to present a performance that appeals to that judge without even thinking about it.

[rjr]

@SzIICo

What about thoughts on eventing judges, judging straight Dressage?

There is no such thing as an “eventing judge” judging straight dressage. ALL judges at USDF shows had to get the required scores at USDF shows, and go through the same USDF/USEF training program to be DRESSAGE judges. Some of them may ALSO ride, hold credentials, or judge in eventing or other venues. There are some dressage judges that have a background in eventing. I do not find anything different in the judging of those who I know.

[exploding_pony]

Some judges are tougher than others and of course all humans have personal preferences.

That said, I find very little bias in judging. I trained with a “S” judge for a quarter of a century and my tests generally read very much like my lessons sounded. The comments I receive tend to be very consistent from judge to judge.

There are always exceptions but at the end of the day, if someone is consistently getting bad marks on rides when the rider believes the tests are really good, I would take a good hard look at the training.

I do agree that very successful, well known trainers/riders may get a few extra points here and there.

[alibi_18]

@netg said it right.

which meant they were only seeing the negative trees, and not the forest. I absolutely think some people are nasty and want to take people down a peg, etc., but so much of judge training is focused on finding the obvious flaws that everything starts to look like an obvious flaw until they have enough experience to widen scope.

Less experienced judges are often harsher and less consistent in their marks. But you know, it’s normal, it takes time to develop your eye and what to really look for. That’s life.

And nothing prevents riders to ask questions to judges after a show.

Best way to understand dressage is to scribe for different judges.

[AZ_TD]

@rjr

There is no such thing as an “eventing judge” judging straight dressage. ALL judges at USDF shows had to get the required scores at USDF shows, and go through the same USDF/USEF training program to be DRESSAGE judges. Some of them may ALSO ride, hold credentials, or judge in eventing or other venues. There are some dressage judges that have a background in eventing. I do not find anything different in the judging of those who I know.

Yes, “eventing only dressage” judges cannot judge a USEF/USDF dressage show. However, there are judges who do not have as much experience judging Dressage only shows. I prefer to ride in front of judges who judge many shows every year, because their eye and experience is better.

[Foxtrot_s]

Not dressage, but a horse show - re: riding for the judge. My girls were at an old style horse show where there were many classes of all kinds. Over the days of the show, her group was judged by different judges.

Day one was an English/huter style judge and the pony ended up with good ribbons all day. Next day was a
mainly Arab judge and she did not get looked at in the same group of horses, so I put a little kimberwick in the pony’s mouth which raised its head up, and then she won lots of ribbons.

Seems one judge liked the ‘huntery’ look and one liked a more high headed look. So I guess it worked. For me, I’m more concerned with how my horse goes, but at a more expensive outing, we try to get what we can get, even though ribbons are not the be all or end all and we understand that.

It is more important to me that my children became horse people rather than ribbon machines with no real horse knowledge.