Unlimited access >

Dressage Pony Breed/Breeders Recommendations - Update Post 57

I appreciate the feedback! Agreed–this is a roll of the dice for what comes through. My trainer is accustomed to breeding dressage-bred KWPN to dressage-bred KWPN, so her appetite for “unknown” is different than mine :sweat_smile: but I certainly don’t discount her input!

Mare is jumper bred KWPN (sire is Judgement ISF). Leggy, good bone, approx 17h. Sire is very much to my liking as well–Connemara type with lovely gaits, approved GRP and ISR Oldenburg. But yes, physically very different from each other.

Redbud Ranch has very lovely stock; just nothing available for this year! Definitely in the running though if I opt to shoot for 2024 (or further out). I have talked to some breeders; it seems this is a relatively niche market and in utero sales are relatively common. If that’s inaccurate though, please don’t hesitate to correct me!

Purchasing in utero certainly has its risks, especially from a maiden mare and unproven stallion. My maiden TB mare is in foal to a Connemara stallion whose oldest offspring are 2 this year, and I haven’t had much interest in my in utero sale, which I totally understand. I’m thinking I will have more luck selling once the foal is born (and price will increase as well). However, I may just decide to keep the foal after it’s born anyway!

I think you have to try to make a non-emotional decision (which is hard). How much of a discount are you receiving for purchasing in utero? In the grand scheme of things, will it really make that much of a difference to save a couple thousand up front? Its also nearly foaling season, and I imagine there will be plenty of options available on the ground in the coming months.

2 Likes

I definitely agree. I may just need to be patient and see what is available in the next 4-6 months. I had kind of wrapped my head around buying in utero if it’s a proven cross, and am eyeing Top Gun (Conn.) pretty seriously as a consistent producer when paired with quality TB or WB mares.

It’s not so much a cost savings to roll the dice with an in utero purchase, I just haven’t seen much young stock available from the stallions I’ve liked–many of whom seem to sell before they’re born! But maybe this is a factor of the time of year I’m really diving into this, and could be subject to change after foaling season?

Congrats on your upcoming baby, I bet it will be a doll!

I like Top Gun a lot, he’s one of the ones I looked at for my mare!

Might be worth discussing a custom foal option with breeders that you’re familiar with or that you have seen use him before. I will admit that I don’t see many Top Gun offspring for sale, but also can’t say I’ve been looking. If there is a specific stallion you like, then a custom foal option may be the way to go!

I plan to share photos of the baby over on the Foal Watch 2023 thread! I can’t wait for it to get here!

1 Like

There was a Hanoverian breeder near(ish) me that tried a couple Han x Connemara crosses, and they all ended up 16+ hh (one was 17.3+!) – with the “pony” attitude. Definitely not the amateur-friendly 2-step-mounting-block horse they were aiming for!

Wowza! My TB mare is 16.1 and Connemara stallion I used is 14.2, so I’m hoping for a nice mid 15 hands baby. I don’t think my mare has any giants in her pedigree, but it is sometimes crazy what pops up when you cross such different phenotypes.

I’ve personally had some version of that happen size-wise… Many years ago crossed an RID stallion with a TB mare. Lo and behold the result was taller than both parents. Absolutely got the brain I wanted though (both parents were solid in that regard), so made my peace with him being an accidental giant :slight_smile:

1 Like

And the opposite. Years ago I rode a 14h 3" Trak x Anglo Arab, who was significantly shorter than both his parents.

I think I know the stallion you are referring to, and his sire is internationally known, so I think that takes some guess-work out of the “unproven” part, as well as the fact that the stallion owner campaigns her stallions.

He is…I’ve come to appreciate that “unknown” is all relative. Some breeders consider any cross/mix of phenotypes to be an undue gamble, which I can appreciate. In my case, I think I can get comfortable with a cross when both parents have a documented breeding history (bonus points for having been bred together successfully before). I know this doesn’t offer any guarantees, but feels more like a calculated risk. Does it get any better in horses? :wink:

https://www.hilltopfarminc.com/stallions/

You could also contact Hilltop Farm (link above) who stands 2 GRP stallions. They’d likely know the breeders you could contact as well

I think that you have too much of a genetic mix there to be confident in predicting what you’re going to get. Particularly with an unproven Mare. For example…I have a 28-year-old Welsh Cob x thoroughbred cross who is 16.2. Sire was 14 hands. You also run the risk of getting literally a Franken horse. Some of these crosses turn out with a horse size head and pony size feet… stuff like that….Proportions not really good. Breeder is sort of trying to reinvent the wheel here, which would be a GRP. The difference being that large breeders have a great depth of genetics to work from and they cull. The odds of getting something to work out on a one shot deal are really low.

My advice would be to wait for babies born in the spring and then act quickly. It doesn’t really make a lot of sense to buy an in utero foal from an unproven genetic mix, when you are literally a few months away from being able to choose from a much larger base. You could get ahead of the game by contacting reputable breeders with proven crosses and get in line now to be informed at birth.

Personally I have seen some warm blood pony crosses that end up with the worst traits of both…warm blood type “sull up and spook”, with ponytude.

I have bought in utero myself, but I was really careful to do so with a deep and proven bloodline on the Mare side, and a carefully chosen approved stallion of the same genetic type for the stallion.
IMO The reduction in price isn’t worth the trade off in the scenario you describe.

I definitely hear what you’re saying. The pairings I’m looking at now have been done before with results I like.

The issue I’m seeing with the breeders I’ve communicated with (which could be a factor of the pre-foaling time of year) is that the offspring of these more established pairings tend to sell in utero, be the result of a custom breeding and/or have at least 1 first right of refusal in line. It’s definitely not my preference to buy that way if it can be avoided! Maybe I’ll have more options in a few months? It’s probably worth waiting to find out.

I guess another question I had is how much one can tell about the temperament or anticipated adult proportions of a young (3-6 mo.?) foal?

Buying in utero from a proven cross is a whole different ball game. It still is a gamble, because full siblings can be usually different. But it’s a lot better option than the first one you were describing.

If you are a very experienced breeder/baby developer, you can tell a lot from looking at three month old horses. Otherwise it’s easy to think they’re all wonderful, because they really are all lovely bouncy movers when they’re babies, light footed and adorable.

As far as temperament goes, I do think you can get a good sense of some basic stuff. Babies tend to show the tendency to either be reactive or curious. I think that does translate into general tendencies later.

Size anticipation is a crapshoot. Some really big babies stall out and don’t grow as big as you think they will, and some babies that are small get huge. I don’t think you have a good predictor there at all. Especially with the mishmash that you were proposing above. In general, if they’re a rangy, have big joints, have kind of a big head, you get the impression that they’re going to be a larger grown-up horse. If they look very well proportioned and more compact, they might not turn into a giant.

What is the price differential that you were seeing between buying in utero, and buying once the baby is on the ground?

Thank you for the feedback! I’m trying to get less naïve about his process as I go…

Which leads me to one of the problems…I’m not an experienced breeder/baby developer, so I’m not sure I (personally) will be able to tell much about something that young unless it’s especially well or strangely put together. I do think I’d have better luck at 3 months than later though, because I tend to think most weanlings/yearlings look a little gawky and awkward as they grow into their parts at different rates. I’m all ears for what those of you who do this regularly look for!

The price differential isn’t huge–approx $2k. The primary issue that I’ve seen is that most of the known pairings that I’ve found and inquired about sell in utero/are already spoken for, so I’m left wondering if it’s even an option to buy at 3 months… That would certainly be my preference based on the feedback I’ve gotten.

I don’t think it’s really possible to describe what somebody experienced sees in a three month old that makes them pull the trigger. I mean it’s possible to make a list, but it really comes down to a build up of years experience creating an eye for those things.

You’d Certainly be able to see obvious things like Limb deformities, clear personality issues… Big stuff that can’t be missed, Even without years of looking up babies and watching them develop into grown-ups.

Have you contacted milky ways owners? I know he has served quite a full book for the last two years… And they seem like they have good support for the people who have used him. He’s quite nice

@VolteSomeday if you’re still looking, I just saw this Facebook post for an in utero Topgun foal with 2 full siblings on the ground

2 Likes

Yes, this is one I’m following very closely if she decides to sell!

1 Like

Just chiming back in here to say I actually have 2 available, a Connemara x Holsteiner (premium holsteiner mare) and a Connemara x TB (From one of our most proven damlines) both colts. These are both client bred offspring. Having seen both colts i can say both would be suitable for dressage.

i have to say the Holstiener x is one of my favorite crosses with the Connemara though the TBx is by far my preferred cross. We have done all kinds of WBx and it takes a certain type of mare to cross well with a Connemara. If you decide to go in utero i would seek out an experienced/established breeder especially one who produces multiple crosses each season.

I also have an Ard Celtic Art daughter who produces beautiful foals. She is currently in foal to Sparrows Zeus (Grange Finn Sparrow) and next season i plan to breed her to Swanview Mirahs Shadow (Silver Shadow/Westside Mirah). Ive retained her Sparrows Zeus daughter from 22 to continue with our program.

Connemara x Holsteiner

2 Likes

If it’s Connemara x warmblood you’re considering, I highly recommend joining the Connemara Facebook pages. They are not only pretty active with posts (often ISO posts or threads about planned breedings- where many breeders share what they have coming available) but also recently a big thread about connemara x warmbloods, specifically.
Many very nice crosses when the parents are both good breeding candidates. From what I’ve seen & heard in the few years I’ve been part of the connemara community, warmblood mares to proven Connemara studs seems to be more common than purebred mares to warmblood studs, and foals get their size from dams.

1 Like