Dressage saddle advice needed — my Morgan & I are a tough fit *sigh*

[CanteringOn]

Quick recap from the “twist width” thread: I’ve been a huntseat rider all my life but moved into low-level eventing last year. For dressage, I bought a used 2006 Custom Saddlery Steffen’s Advantage in buffalo, 17" seat and Petite (15") flap, likely a M width, last June. I love my position in it and I how comfy it is for aaaaalmost all of me (heh, wait for it), and it immediately improved my seat at the canter, woohoo! It seems to fit my guy well, too.

However, the front of my hips ached during and after riding in it. Even after taking a pain reliever before each ride, the ache got worse during every lesson and it was very uncomfortable to dismount — but I figured that was my tight hunter-hips trying to stretch, no pain no gain, right? Wrong.

It wasn’t until I rode in my trainer’s 2014 Steffen’s Advantage cowhide monoflap (external blocks) on my guy that I realized the hip issue WAS BECAUSE OF MY SADDLE, not me. Possibly that my 2006 Steffen’s double-flap was just too darned wide at the knees, making my hips scream. After seven months of aches and pains, I’m resigned to the idea that this isn’t fixable if I just keep working at it. So now I’m back on the saddle search, d’oh, and would love some help.

I’ve been in touch with the Custom rep for my state, and she has nothing in my size and budget right now. I’m also several hours from indie fitters and tack shops, so I’m kinda on my own and likely going the Internet route. I welcome suggestions!

HORSE:

• 15.1h Morgan, r-o-u-n-d barrel but narrow little chest (so biggish blocks are helpful to keep my leg from scooting forward toward where he’s narrow), big withers, straightish line from bottom of withers up to his croup, longish back, kinda tent-shaped side-to-side. Very forward girth groove, so I ride in anatomical/curved girths.

ME:

• Narrow twist (I think). I’m female, but because I’m so short, my hips aren’t wide. My trainer’s Steffen’s fits me great and it’s advertised as having a narrow twist, so I’m guessing that’s the right twist for me(?).
• Some saddles can give me “Inverness pain”. My trainer’s Steffen’s Adv seems better than most on that.
• 5’1". Ideally I’d get something with a short flap option. My trainer’s 16" standard flap is workable for me, but it extends about halfway down my calf and shorter would be better.
• Since I’m short, I’m prone to chair seat in a lot of saddles, 'cause they have the stirrup bar set too far forward for me. Not a problem with either of the Steffen’s Adv I’ve tried.
• My jump saddle is an Adam Ellis Chloe, in case that helps.

BUDGET:

• Comfy under $2K, could stretch toward $3K+ but it has to be “OMG, now that I’ve sat in this I will die if I can’t keep it!” perfect for us both. I prefer used tack for better bang for the buck, but will order new if I need an option (like short flaps!). This budget means I can’t order a “custom” Custom, alas.

Yep, I’m already looking for a used Steffen’s monoflap like my trainer’s — there are several single flaps out there in my size, but so far no 17" monoflaps. I don’t know whether a single flap would feel the same as the monoflap that I know works for me. (Anyone test this out already?)

I’m trying to be patient, but I also want to see what other brands and models I should check out.

Any ideas? Thank you!

[CanteringOn]

P.S. Since I know the newer Steffen’s monoflap works so well, I’m curious about other Custom saddles I might be able to find used, but I’m having a hard time figuring out which other Custom tree(s) would be right for my straight-backed guy.

I love the idea of the Gemini R that @Maude mentioned in the other thread, but it seems the Gemini R is so new that Custom hasn’t even put the price on its page at their website. The chances of me finding it used are likely nil.

Anyone know the tree difference between the Advantage/Advantage R, or the Everest/Everest R, etc.? Is the regular or the R better for straight-backed horses?

[outerbanks77]

Black Country Equinox. It is a dressage style endurance saddle (so shorter than average flaps) with a monoflap and short panels, so no bulk at all under the knee. It comes in either a hoop or regular tree, so one or the other should fit your horse, with the straighter back. Used in good condition should be around $1,500.

[CanteringOn]

Wow, that’s out of the box snd a cool idea! Love the built-in short flaps. I’ll research it @outerbanks77 — thanks!

[fanfayre]

Hi, @CanteringOn,
I have very similar ‘dimensions’ to you, and JUST found a Trilogy saddle, for around your budget, including the shipping and custom’s costs to ship it into Canada from Nevada.
What sold me on this brand was the naturally short flap (14.5"- my exact measurement). Literally, the ad said short flap and I was sold without even knowing anything about the brand. Then I started researching it and found out quite a bit here! There appear to be many Trilogy owners on this board, so I’m sure someone else could tell you more about them. They come in 3 styles: The Verago, the Amadeo (I bought) and the Debbie McDonald. All come in 3 flap lengths: short (like mine), standard (~16", I think) and long (>16"). They come in tree widths from narrow (or x-narrow) to x-wide (or maybe even xx-w). I too, can’t handle a too-wide twist, and the Amadeo seems to me to be just fine. For eg, I had to get rid of a perfectly good Black Country Quantum (jumping saddle, but still) because it ended up making me so sore :o, but this Amadeo feels just like it was made for ME, and it’s not a custom at all! Search Trilogy saddles on this forum and I’m sure a bunch of helpful data will come up!
Luckily, the saddle is flat panelled, so fits my mare like custom, too. Win-Win! There seem to be quite a few available, too
Hope that helps?!

[CanteringOn]

Hooray, it definitely does, thank you @fanfayre!

[fanfayre]

If a Trilogy can’t work out for you, then another possiblity is an Otto Schumacher. I was using one quite comfortably until I found the Trilogy Amadeo, and same flat panels fit my mare. Only thing about it was the flap was a little longer than I wanted; I’m not sure if they come in short flap. I somehow doubt it. One plus- they’re not an “In” brand so prices might be quite a bit under your budget!

[IPEsq]

Is your saddle a true double flap? Custom also makes a single flap—not monoflap, but rather there is no sweat flap. The billets are not attached to the flap. That is what my trainer has, and it gives a pretty close contact feel. I think a monoflap can be hard to fit with a horse with spring ribs and a forward girth groove—harder to have the billets fall correctly even with an anatomical girth.

Is your trainer’s saddle also a 17? Although you are short, it sounds like your femur may be jammed too straight. With the deeper dressage seat and only so much flexibility in the flap, you may need a larger seat to have enough room, so long as you can find something that still puts the stirrup bar in the right place for you.

[netg]

@CanteringOn

P.S. Since I know the newer Steffen’s monoflap works so well, I’m curious about other Custom saddles I might be able to find used, but I’m having a hard time figuring out which other Custom tree(s) would be right for my straight-backed guy.

I love the idea of the Gemini R that @Maude mentioned in the other thread, but it seems the Gemini R is so new that Custom hasn’t even put the price on its page at their website. The chances of me finding it used are likely nil.

Anyone know the tree difference between the Advantage/Advantage R, or the Everest/Everest R, etc.? Is the regular or the R better for straight-backed horses?

I have the Advantage Monoflap for my horses with straighter backs and the R for more horse with a more curvy back. The R seems to work for a huge variety of horses when fitted to them, so would likely also work. It is, however, a different tree - it seems like if you found the tree which works you should stick with it.

Definitely short blocks, and consider a larger seat. Long blocks seem to mostly work for those in the 5’6"-5’9" range from my observations here and among people I know. Those of us who are very short and riders who are quite tall all seem to need the short blocks.

I also have a Dresch Legolas tree with short blocks, and it works similarly as far as size and comfort. It was super comfy for me, but didn’t quite let me get my legs on right - when buying it, I erred on the side of comfort, and didn’t realize that I was fighting it to try to get my legs ON my guy who is a really bad size mismatch for me. It fits my mom’s mare perfectly, and may fit other horses in the future, so I’ve kept it as well - but you may be able to find one of them online, too.

[SaddleUp158]

I just recently sold my Trilogy Amadeo. Loved the saddle, most comfortable saddle I have ever ridden in, but it was too long for my Morgan’s back, fit her everywhere else. Now am on the hunt for a replacement. If the Trilogy saddles aren’t too long for your Morgan’s back, I highly recommend the saddles! A fitter did give me good advice to keep in mind when looking for a used saddle for our Morgans. Most of the older saddles will be too long (at least in some brands) for our short backed horses. She did not clarify as to what year is considered “older”.

[Belowthesalt]

With so many custom and semi-custom saddles available today, I’m sure there are many that may accommodate a round-bodied horse. In the past, however, while most of my horses have been TB or Appaloosa, I’ve ridden quite a few Arabs and a few Morgans, and the best “off the rack” fit found for those horses was Passiers. YMMV

[CanteringOn]

These are wonderful suggestions! I’m excited to check out all these brands & models. Y’all are great!

I should clarify that my long-backed Morgan does have well-spring ribs, but he’s only a medium in most saddles. His topline just hasn’t developed much despite proper work 4-6 days/week + supplements, dang it. We’re trying, but he might have some limitations there. So he’s still spine-prominent at the top and not the standard Morgan roly-poly.

@IPEsq, my trainer’s 2014 Steffen’s monoflap is a 17 and I don’t want to go up from there — as short as I am, that’s pretty much a recipe for instant chair seat for me. :eek:

My 2006 Steffen’s is a true double flap. I can’t seem to find ANY 17" Steffen’s monoflaps available at the moment, but there are ten 17" single flaps available. (People with single flaps often list them as monoflaps, so I get excited and then my hopes get dashed. ) However, given the extreme relief in my hips from my trainer’s monoflap as opposed to the ache I get from my double flap, I’m reluctant to try a singleflap for fear it won’t make enough of a difference. I asked the Custom rep if there would be a noticeable difference and she just said they feel different to different people.

@netg, my trainer’s Steffen’s has long blocks which neither of us need (she’s not much taller than I am). I’ve never sat in a short-block one and I assume I’d like it better. However, I’ve found the long blocks on hers are soft enough that they don’t bother me at all, so if a used long-block one came up, I’d likely get it if everything else is right.

I might ask if my trainer would be willing to trade her saddle to me for a single flap I could buy for her — she’s a dressage trainer so her hips aren’t as tight as my hunter ones — but even though she didn’t like external blocks at first, now she loves her monoflap, dang it. Hers has the long blocks and the standard flap length, and I’d rather have the petite flap to get more leg on my boy — but the Custom petite flaps are pretty rare on the used market, and I’m not yet ready to spend the $ for a new one.

So, I’m glad to be finding out about these alternative models — thanks, everyone!

[IPEsq]

Can you demo any of those single flaps?

[CanteringOn]

The state’s Custom fitter cut me loose due to budget/size, so it’s likely I’d have to buy outright w/o a trial.

[mydogs]

I am 5’ and ride in a 17" Trilogy. So if you are a true 17", you would probably want a 17.5". BUT! You might still fit a 17" Trilogy and it might fit your horse’s back too.

I also have small hips and prefer the Verago since it has a narrow twist. Skyland Saddlery seems to get a few 17" Trilogy saddles that are used. And if you can’t find the absolute perfect saddle, you might be able to find a cheaper one and have something replaced by Joshua Siegel Saddlery. My trainer needed a smaller tree and was able to send her saddle to him to have it replaced. I was going to send mine to him to replace the back gussets so they fit my guy better.

[CanteringOn]

Good advice about the Trilogy sizing, and I’ll check out Skyland. Thanks!

I’m a 16.5 in H/J and a 17 for dressage saddles. Anything more than that and I’m just swimming around on the seat. I ended up buying a 17" used Adam Ellis Chloe (H/J saddle) because it was a great deal and my boy’s so hard to fit, but I’m grateful for the Acavallo gel seat saver that takes up that extra 1/2"+ when we school. Heck, I use an Acavallo on my 17" dressage saddle, too, so I suppose it’s really like a 16.5" dressage saddle, which pretty much no one makes. Wish they did!

It’s not that my butt’s so teeny, but that I really am that short. :lol: Maybe my thigh is proportionally shorter than usual for my height, I don’t know. I don’t think I’ve ever found a saddle that’s too small for me, short of a true children’s saddle, but boy have there been ones way too big. I rode in a postage-stamp 16" Blue Ribbon Avanti (H/J) for 35 years and haven’t yet been able to part with it.

[fanfayre]

:lol::lol: You say “I really am that short” like it’s a bad thing :lol::lol::winkgrin:. I like to think of it as those ‘taller’ people are just odd :lol:;)!
If it helps you any, my old custom-made Regal was an 18" with 14.5" custom length flaps, and I feel fine in the Trilogy Amadeo in a 17.5", so a 17 just might work for you

[CanteringOn]

@mydogs, If at some point I can find a 17" Steffen’s monoflap with the standard 16" flap, maybe Joshua Siegel Saddlery or someone else would be able to shorten the flap for me. Thanks for the idea. The standard might work ok, but shorter is always helpful for me, LOL.

[CanteringOn]

Hahaha fanfayre, I hear you! All my life it’s been funny to explain to normies what it’s like to be short. Now if only I were as petite all-around as I used to be…

Great to know about the sizing! I will cross my fingers for a good fit the first time, and it’s good to know there may be options. I’m particularly excited about Trilogy’s “Debbie McDonald Special” for shorties!

[Pocket_Pony]

As someone who grew up doing h/j and switched to dressage and who also had hip pain issues, I’d also point out that stirrup bar placement also has a lot to do with it. Many dressage saddlers seem to place the stirrup bar far back in a way to have the leg hang straighter. That does not work with my anatomy. So just something to keep in the back of your mind. When I read “stirrup bar set back” then I think that is probably a saddle I won’t like.