Dressage Trainer: how to know if they are holding you back?

[lidador]

Red flags in your updates:

1. Spending all of your lessons stuck on the same circle making no more than infinitesimal progress. If you’re repeating the same exercise over and over and over and getting nothing out of it, that’s a problem. It might something totally resolvable without changing instructors, like maybe a communication issue (instructor wants you to do X and you try to do it, but instructor wants to see something different from what you think they want to see, and neither of you recognize that’s the problem), but regardless, endless repetition with the aim of “perfection” that you never reach is not productive. And on that note:

2. The word “perfect”. (This one might be more of my personal bias than a universal red flag though.)

Not necessarily red flags:

1. Moving down a few levels. If it’s the case that you do have gaps in your training that you’re just starting to address, your net skill can get worse before it gets better, so moving down a few levels might make sense. However, you should feel like you’re developing somehow and there should be some end in sight somewhere. It’s also not a reason not to work on your I1/2 and GP skills (which I say not having gotten to that level myself, so take it with a grain of salt).

2. Spending entire lessons working on training scale exercises. Especially if, as in 1., there are gaps that need to be addressed before you can do the GP work correctly.

3. Something you didn’t mention but you may have also experienced: spending entire lessons working on your position.

These are more likely to be red flags if your instructor can’t/won’t be precise about the steps between what you’re doing right now and what your goals are.

[Daisyesq]

I am wondering if Europe standards for PSG/I-1 riding is higher than U.S.?

I know a lot of amateurs here who would do a PSG test, performing the movements satisfactorily, but in a lower level frame and lower-level type of collection/engagement/little expression. This would result in a score of about 55-60% in the U.S. at a recognized show. Maybe it would score less in some European competitions?

Maybe your trainer’s standards are higher and that’s why it seems you are just going around in circles. But either way, if you are not satisfied with your progress, then I agree to move on to a new trainer.

[stoicfish]

Why don’t you ride with another trainer again and ask for evaluation?
The trainer might be trying to fix somethings that are lacking before you go up. That could be the horse or you. Another trainer might say the say thing but give you different tools to improve. Ask someone you respect that can see you in person for an opinion.

[jbbaclarke]

[QUOTE=stoicfish;8810493]
Why don’t you ride with another trainer again and ask for evaluation?
The trainer might be trying to fix somethings that are lacking before you go up. That could be the horse or you. Another trainer might say the say thing but give you different tools to improve. Ask someone you respect that can see you in person for an opinion.[/QUOTE]

Hi and thanks for reading and responding. I have ridden with another trainer here a few months ago consistently. The same issue of the canter rhythm was addressed and other things were also worked on during the trainings. Somehow I got some really pointed help that had reasonably immediate results across multiple gaits. When I went back to the other trainer, my “normal” trainer, they were amazed at the difference. I did not tell them who I had trained with as I was not sure they would approve or not. I have had trainings with a handful of other instructors here, all very different methods and different focuses, some absolutely strange (like “you never use your seat, horses are simple animals, they only understand the hands and leg”). But this one trainer clicked and the other trainer I used also clicked with the methodology and focus. My husband see improvement. My other friend/trainer who instructs me with my young dressage horse, also thinks the riding is good and was actually quite impressed when I worked with them for some specific help with the pirouettes. I do not mind at all asking for help. I do always get something from the person, well, except for hands-legs trainer, whose students always do poorly in competitions.

[jbbaclarke]

[QUOTE=Daisyesq;8810478]
I am wondering if Europe standards for PSG/I-1 riding is higher than U.S.?

I know a lot of amateurs here who would do a PSG test, performing the movements satisfactorily, but in a lower level frame and lower-level type of collection/engagement/little expression. This would result in a score of about 55-60% in the U.S. at a recognized show. Maybe it would score less in some European competitions?

Maybe your trainer’s standards are higher and that’s why it seems you are just going around in circles. But either way, if you are not satisfied with your progress, then I agree to move on to a new trainer.[/QUOTE]

Thank you for reading and responding. I appreciate your insight. I think that you have definitely highlighted something about what is expected in competition level in the US at local levels, even if “FEI” versus local European competition. Here, everyone rides at the one class level, regardless of professional or amateur status. In fact, there is no differentiation between professionals and amateurs. The one test I rode I competed against someone who I had seen ride in the World Cup. (Yeah, she won, of course.). So yes, that is one factor : “it is different”. And yes, I am satisfied with my progress, but I still feel I could be doing more.

[jbbaclarke]

[QUOTE=lidador;8810439]
Red flags in your updates:

1. Spending all of your lessons stuck on the same circle making no more than infinitesimal progress. If you’re repeating the same exercise over and over and over and getting nothing out of it, that’s a problem. It might something totally resolvable without changing instructors, like maybe a communication issue (instructor wants you to do X and you try to do it, but instructor wants to see something different from what you think they want to see, and neither of you recognize that’s the problem), but regardless, endless repetition with the aim of “perfection” that you never reach is not productive. And on that note:

2. The word “perfect”. (This one might be more of my personal bias than a universal red flag though.)

Not necessarily red flags:

1. Moving down a few levels. If it’s the case that you do have gaps in your training that you’re just starting to address, your net skill can get worse before it gets better, so moving down a few levels might make sense. However, you should feel like you’re developing somehow and there should be some end in sight somewhere. It’s also not a reason not to work on your I1/2 and GP skills (which I say not having gotten to that level myself, so take it with a grain of salt).

2. Spending entire lessons working on training scale exercises. Especially if, as in 1., there are gaps that need to be addressed before you can do the GP work correctly.

3. Something you didn’t mention but you may have also experienced: spending entire lessons working on your position.

These are more likely to be red flags if your instructor can’t/won’t be precise about the steps between what you’re doing right now and what your goals are.[/QUOTE]

Thanks for reading and responding. I appreciate your perspective. No, believe it or not, not one of the trainers I have worked with here has focussed on my position, except in certain instances where they might say I need to lean a bit into the half pass, or move my inside leg more forward. I am not sure what that says. Thank you thoughfor reading.

[fordtraktor]

If your canter rhythm is not correct, that needs to be fixed first I would think. I mean, that’s the very bottom of the training scale and if you have a hole at the bottom, there is zero foundation for proper advanced work. The issue for me is that this trainer doesn’t seem to be getting through to you on how to fix it. I would go ride with trainer who seemed to help you a lot instead of spinning your wheels with this one who just isn’t saying things in a way that gets through to you. That doesn’t necessarily mean Trainer is bad at all, just not the right person for you right now.

I agree with her decision not to advance you until this issue is fixed, though, if as you say your canter rhythm is not what it ought to be. And it doesn’t sound like a horse issue since the other trainer was able to improve it.

Don’t be impatient, good riding takes time. If you move up and the basics get lost, then you have to go back down and revisit the basics so you have all of it right before you go up again. Of course, there are some places that don’t agree with this but it always comes out in the results. But if this trainer isn’t helping you fix it, by all means seek other help.

However don’t forget that in a clinic scenario trainers often push you to do new things even if maybe the basics aren’t there, because that is what a clinic is for. They wouldn’t have very many happy clinic attendees if they did what most of them probably want to do to a significant portion of attendees, which is stick people on the longe line and work on fixing their seats. If you went to one as a long-term student, they would be far more likely to go back to basics for sure and not get to the “fun” stuff until the basics were right.

[stoicfish]

[QUOTE=jbbaclarke;8810923]
Hi and thanks for reading and responding. I have ridden with another trainer here a few months ago consistently. The same issue of the canter rhythm was addressed and other things were also worked on during the trainings. Somehow I got some really pointed help that had reasonably immediate results across multiple gaits. When I went back to the other trainer, my “normal” trainer, they were amazed at the difference. I did not tell them who I had trained with as I was not sure they would approve or not. I have had trainings with a handful of other instructors here, all very different methods and different focuses, some absolutely strange (like “you never use your seat, horses are simple animals, they only understand the hands and leg”). But this one trainer clicked and the other trainer I used also clicked with the methodology and focus. My husband see improvement. My other friend/trainer who instructs me with my young dressage horse, also thinks the riding is good and was actually quite impressed when I worked with them for some specific help with the pirouettes. I do not mind at all asking for help. I do always get something from the person, well, except for hands-legs trainer, whose students always do poorly in competitions.[/QUOTE]

Well, then you have your answer! You learned more from another trainer. Your money and time, go where you get the best results.
Why do so many of these trainer threads remind me of Stockholm syndrome?

[Daisyesq]

[QUOTE=jbbaclarke;8810925]
T. Here, everyone rides at the one class level, regardless of professional or amateur status. In fact, there is no differentiation between professionals and amateurs. The one test I rode I competed against someone who I had seen ride in the World Cup. (Yeah, she won, of course.). So yes, that is one factor : “it is different”. [/QUOTE]

This is a misconception about competing in the U.S. - that there is a different division for amateurs where the standards are lower. Not true! In the U.S., we also compete in exactly the same classes as professionals. Sometimes show management gives out a second set of ribbons to amateurs, if there are enough competitors. Yes, the pro’s win most of the time, but it sure can be a sweet feeling to be an amateur outscoring a professional rider.

Not until the Regional Championships and U.S. Finals there are amateur divisions. But still they are judged on the same scale as the pros.

[merrygoround]

[QUOTE=jbbaclarke;8810226]

1. My trainer has “possibly” trained GP horses but not GP riders. Many riders/students are pretty much 3rd level riders, or slightly less.
2. My trainer has not had a problem much with schooling the GP movements when I specifically ask, but wants my horse to be straight and forward and “deep” before we work on those things - and usually we spend the entirety of a training session on a circle to perfect the frame, throughness, self carriage, frame, forwardness, rhythm. We have started with one tempis and half steps (which I was doing long before I moved here, back when I was training in the US.)

I realize I sound like an ungrateful jerk.[/QUOTE]

Don’t!!

I worked at one time with an instructor who had trained many horses to changes, but even though both I and my horse were ready, it was never suggested… Then I realized, none of her students were taught changes, the only ones who rode changes were those who leased or bought horses she had trained.

All gone instructor.

Teaching changes is not brain surgery, nor is riding them. :lol: It is fun!!