Dressage Trainer: how to know if they are holding you back?

[jbbaclarke]

Hi There, I am new to the forum - again. I apparently signed up some years ago but never got around to logging in on a regular basis.

In saying that, my question is: how can you know if your dressage trainer is holding you back? Meaning, if you have been happy with your training but after a while you feel like you’re working on the same thing or they discourage you from trying other more advanced skills (say, one tempis or piaffe or showing at a certain level). Is it possible they’re holding you back? I once had a trainer tell me (long long long time ago) that I should not canter. That I “could not” canter. I was afraid of it and it got in my head that I could not canter on my horse. I moved stables, started training with a new trainer who said “What do you mean you can’t canter?” She put me on her horse on the longe line and sure enough, I could, in fact, canter. I realized, after the fact, that the first trainer, for whatever reason (I was a very beginning adult rider) was holding me back. Maybe deliberately, maybe not. This is quite likely the opposite of being “pushed” too hard and beyond your comfort zone.

Now I’m trying to get out of Inter I and into more GP movements and find myself in an eerily similar situation. Not knowing my horse’s limitations (his canter is not stellar and he is mid-teens in age) I wonder if this is a trainer who is holding me back and discouraging me from competing and doing “more”?

[Anonymoose]

Why did your previous trainer say you couldn’t canter? What was the reason she gave you?

[RedHorses]

1. Does your trainer train GP horses/riders?

2. What did she/he say when you specifically asked why she/he wanted you to not school GP movements?

If the answer to 1 is no, then maybe the knowledge isn’t there to help you.

If you didn’t actually do 2 explicitly, then go do that this week before you worry about being held back. If the reasoning seems fishy then come back and ask if anyone agrees.

[meupatdoes]

You are seeking some pretty high level instruction. Your trainer may just not know how to help you further. If your trainer regularly shows those levels in the mid 60’s and has other students competing those levels and also getting 60’s, maybe she thinks it’s too much for your horse or you need to plateau a while and really get the foundation fot the work.

If she/her students don’t compete those levels, or if they do but everyone is stuck in the 50’s, she might just not know how to help you further.

It might be a good idea to go to a good clinician or two and see what they do with you and your horse.

[Daisyesq]

Are you doing I-1 in shows? Then you are getting feedback from other experts (judges) on how your training is going.

I hereby give you permission to experiment! Try a few one tempis (just 2 - change and flip back), you should already know half-steps and some travelling piaffe. It’s ok to ask for it.

You don’t need your trainer’s permission. But I don’t think the trainer is “holding you back”, even if he/she thinks you should plateau for a while where you are. I just think you are putting too much weight to this trainer’s words. Like, if your trainer tells you where to go in the ring every ride? Time to make some decisions. I don’t think the leap from I1 movements to GP movements is the same as the leap from trot to canter for an adult beginner.

If your trainer is just trying to preserve your teenaged horse, you should be able to discuss those limitations (ie, not too many canter pirouettes! But how many is too many?)

[GraceLikeRain]

Do you have other people who you trust to give critical feedback? Most people (myself included) are inclined to surround ourselves with people who are kind and encouraging. That encouragement is amazing, but sometimes it also prevents people from being totally honest.

My counter point is my sister. She is Brutal in the best way possible. At any point if I was faced with a crossroads of “are we ready” and “why is the trainer telling me to wait” she can be an expert critical eye. She is the only person in my life outside of a trainer who I can trust to always pick me apart before the horse I am on, and I think that is really powerful. A friend tells you “you look AMAZING! but maybe just possibly your horse needs a tiny bit more impulsion” a critical eye says “The horse is not the problem. Your pelvis has tipped forward and is blocking the back. Address the problem: your seat. Have you thought of trying…”

If a trainer says “not yet” I think they should also give you a why. Is the horse not strong enough? Are your aids lacking refinement? Are there big holes and if so, how is your trainer going to help you address them?

If you are still in Tryon there are a number of options available. I just moved about a hour south so I’ve spent a lot of time reading about the trainers in the area. Have you looked into local clinics? That can be a good way to get an outside expert set of eyes without rocking the boat. If the clinician has you playing around with stuff your trainer never even presents as an option at home during lessons, perhaps another trainer is a better fit?

[exvet]

I went through something similar years ago. I had been with an instructor who was incredible and took me from first level to my bronze with one horse and then stuck with me through the starting process of many babies to finally keep one long enough to get me to PSG. She was one of the few willing and able to give me lunge lessons and I will be forever grateful; but, after many years together I found myself stuck for a longer period than normal and test after test kept saying the same thing. I was getting very frustrated as was my horse all the while taking one, sometimes two lessons a week. I discussed it with her multiple times and she kept saying the same thing, “You’re going to have to figure it out for yourself. This isn’t something I can teach you.” My loyalty to her is what really was holding me back. I finally decided to leave and get lessons from one particular individual who had been my greatest critic. It didn’t take long and I broke through the glass ceiling that had been in place for so long. One of the greatest differences was that the ‘new’ instructor was a judge and had taken many students up through grand prix as well as having made grand prix horses from similar types of shoe leather (I love my horses but I am a realist). My former instructor had not ridden at the FEI levels for many years and had not shown in as many. It also was simply a rut for us and in no way her fault. The unfortunate thing is the former instructor holds a life long grudge; but, that is just what has to be I suppose. If your gut is telling you that you need to hear things a little differently or that you need to hear it from someone else that you can’t do x,y,z then it probably is time to move on and find a message that speaks to you and your head allows you to swallow and follow. Good luck.

[Crockpot]

no one has the answer to your question here. \

maybe it is about your horse -not you

or maybe it is about you- not the horse

or maybe it is about the trainer- not you or your horse

No one here can know

impossible to answer from the original post

But people will reply by layering on their own experiences.

You will pick the ones you like.

[TheHotSensitiveType]

Based on the information provided, it is impossible for me to know if the instructor is holding you back. It is never a bad idea to clinic with someone else though to see if you are getting similar feedback. Maybe try a clinic with several different instructors to see what they have to say.

Your trainer may be or may not be holding you back. Have you asked why he/she doesn’t think you should be schooling certain things?

IME, I have had instructors be IMO too polite about diverting me from doing certain things. The truth was my horse and I were not ready, but they were not clear about that. I finally figured it out… but I would have FAR preferred just to be succinctly told why. Then I could work on the preliminary things to get to the more advanced things…

[lidador]

Some warning signs that I’ve encountered when I’ve outgrown a trainer (or when they’ve just been generally bad/ineffective):

1. If you start doing what you know they will tell you to do before they say it close to 100% of the time.

2. If they are discouraging you from learning more (off the horse) and talking to/listening to/learning from others. (And if they get offended when you share things you learned elsewhere with them, just run.)

3. If they only ever give imprecise answers to your questions about how to improve the skills at the limit of your skill set. (If they act like it’s some secret knowledge that they possess and you aren’t ready to hear, run.)

4. If you ask specifically what it is you need to do to keep moving forward and they deflect/never answer. (This has happened to me mostly with instructors who were too nice. They were never willing to say “the horse just can’t go any further.”)

Discouraging you from working on more advanced skills isn’t necessarily a sign, but being unwilling or unable to specifically articulate why is. “You aren’t ready” is 100% totally insufficient on its own.

It took me a really long time to figure out that I do best with instructors who have me try things just beyond my current abilities, as it really clarifies where my (and my horse’s) weaknesses are. Then we go back and address them and are better for it. Your cantering example is similar to this. “What do you mean you ‘can’t’?” You just do it and see that it’s not a big deal even though there are things you need to improve to do it well. This type of instructor reminds me of Yoda: “Try not; do.”

I’ve also had instructors who are a uncomfortable asking students to do things they aren’t 100% ready to do right. If they’re able to say “don’t do X yet, because Y,” then on my own I’ll try it and see what they mean. So I still learn from them, if surreptitiously. If instead they leave it as “don’t do X” or worse “you can’t do X,” I’ll probably try it anyway, and if I’m not successful in identifying the weakness on my own, I may trick myself into thinking I’m improving when I’m not, or I’ll lose confidence and subconsciously start to believe that I’ll never be able to do it, like your cantering example again.

[alibi_18]

[QUOTE=jbbaclarke;8809445]
I once had a trainer tell me (long long long time ago) that I should not canter. That I “could not” canter. I was afraid of it and it got in my head that I could not canter on my horse. I moved stables, started training with a new trainer who said “What do you mean you can’t canter?” She put me on her horse on the longe line and sure enough, I could, in fact, canter. I realized, after the fact, that the first trainer, for whatever reason (I was a very beginning adult rider) was holding me back. Maybe deliberately, maybe not. This is quite likely the opposite of being “pushed” too hard and beyond your comfort zone.[/QUOTE]

I really can’t say this was a “trainer holding you back” situation at all and you are not really being fair to that first trainer.
You were a beginner afraid of cantering on your own horse.
If that first trainer had pushed you to canter, this thread would have probably said “trainer who overfaced student”. I have had student start screaming/trembling when asked to canter, or they were so stiff they scared the horse… I had to tell them, no - you can’t canter.

When you moved barn, you were probably more use to riding, more use to your horse, more advanced and still, you didn’t start cantering on your horse but with this new trainer’s horse, on a lunge line. You just can’t compare the two.

Now I’m trying to get out of Inter I and into more GP movements and find myself in an eerily similar situation. Not knowing my horse’s limitations (his canter is not stellar and he is mid-teens in age) I wonder if this is a trainer who is holding me back and discouraging me from competing and doing “more”?

At Inter1, you should know more about your horse’s limitations.

What do you mean by “his canter is not stellar”?

What are the reasons given?

I really have to wonder how you got to Inter without playing with the one tempis or the half steps. How are your scores at Inter1?

[starsandsun]

Are you competing? If you are, and your scores are indicating competency, then sure, why not push ahead. But if you are showing and your scores are under 50%, you are probably not ready for that level and may be missing some key elements in your tool kit.

[jbbaclarke]

[QUOTE=Crockpot;8809734]
no one has the answer to your question here. \

maybe it is about your horse -not you

or maybe it is about you- not the horse

or maybe it is about the trainer- not you or your horse

No one here can know

impossible to answer from the original post

But people will reply by layering on their own experiences.

You will pick the ones you like.:)[/QUOTE]

Well, maybe I should clarify: I wasn’t afraid to canter until my trainer kept dissuading me from doing it - so that it became “special” and then the ability to canter became something of an issue for her - she felt I shouldn’t and told me I was unsafe. So I wasn’t afraid until that point. I had ridden western horses and had galloped and cantered without any phobias. But that was one trainer and a very long time ago and another country. I’ve since had others. I have also worked with various clinicians from all over the world - I am currently in Europe on an expat assignment. I had hoped my training here would help me go UP the levels and not DOWN. I had hoped that my training would have at least picked up where I left off when I left the US - not go back a few levels. Yes. I realize there is the training scale and yes, the training scale is important. But what I am wondering is: the same lesson, time after time, being told you still need more work, should not compete, and keeping you in an endless loop of the same work week after week. While I know I must get around my horse’s limitations, I have tried other instructors here and one (name withheld) had me improved in one training. As for this trainer’s ability to get me beyond my current level based on their own experiences - that I am not sure about. Yes, they have told me not to work with other people. And yes, I did go to another trainer (the really good one) without their knowledge. While I know my and my horse’s limitations, I’m getting the feeling I will be stuck (for lack of a better word) at this level and never take the risk to try new things and move up with this trainer. I do appreciate all feedback - both supportive and constructive. I am more looking for “the signs” of when to recognize being held back (without looking at the motives).

[cnm161]

It felt like there’s a gulf between I-1 and I-2/GP, similar to the one between 3rd and PSG or 1st and 2nd. Your horse has to be that much stronger, that much more through, that much more confident in the work to be successful. It’s asking a lot out of them.

I was going to say that “we all start somewhere, and you won’t mess anything up if you play with piaffe/passage or the ones…” and then realized that I lost all ability to ride 2s and 3s for months after I introduced the ones because they are pretty exciting and sometimes rideability goes out the window. So if you have designs on, say, the championships at I-1, I HIGHLY recommend you leave those ones alone til November. Same applies to passage, really. Everything turns into passage.

I was fairly confident that my mid/high 60s at I-1 portended nothing but greatness at GP. I was dead wrong.

[jbbaclarke]

1. My trainer has “possibly” trained GP horses but not GP riders. Many riders/students are pretty much 3rd level riders, or slightly less.
2. My trainer has not had a problem much with schooling the GP movements when I specifically ask, but wants my horse to be straight and forward and “deep” before we work on those things - and usually we spend the entirety of a training session on a circle to perfect the frame, throughness, self carriage, frame, forwardness, rhythm. We have started with one tempis and half steps (which I was doing long before I moved here, back when I was training in the US.)

I realize I sound like an ungrateful jerk.

[jbbaclarke]

When we were in the US I did do I-1 (and yes, “i won”, ha ha…at least at one show I beat a former trainer in my I-1 tests), otherwise did mid 60s a few years ago. Rode with an Olympic judge when new here and also did mid 60’s. But now… well, you can see the responses I have written to get a better idea of the picture. We have worked on 1 tempis, half steps (I used to work with a pi-pa clinician at my farm a few times a year before moving here…) and pirouettes.

[jbbaclarke]

Scores at I-1 in the US before I left were mid 60s. Trainers there were adding GP movements into the schooling. Since being here - circles. Literally. Had to ask for GP movements. Showed once and got a 55% at PSG (went down a level for my first show here in this country) after my summer holiday. Realize not a great competitive move to compete right after holidays…Call me an idiot. But my former trainers in the US are wondering what is going on that I’m not further along a couple years later… And that is why I posed the question on this forum.

[jbbaclarke]

[QUOTE=cnm161;8810201]
It felt like there’s a gulf between I-1 and I-2/GP, similar to the one between 3rd and PSG or 1st and 2nd. Your horse has to be that much stronger, that much more through, that much more confident in the work to be successful. It’s asking a lot out of them.

I was going to say that “we all start somewhere, and you won’t mess anything up if you play with piaffe/passage or the ones…” and then realized that I lost all ability to ride 2s and 3s for months after I introduced the ones because they are pretty exciting and sometimes rideability goes out the window. So if you have designs on, say, the championships at I-1, I HIGHLY recommend you leave those ones alone til November. Same applies to passage, really. Everything turns into passage.

I was fairly confident that my mid/high 60s at I-1 portended nothing but greatness at GP. I was dead wrong.[/QUOTE]

yes, that was exactly one of the problems with my last competition: the one tempis became “look at what I can do” when I wanted just simple 3s and 4s. I know that gulf is there - hence working on the GP so that we can dip our toe into the gulf. Sadly, I’m being told to go even lower than PSG and “not ready yet” for those even. I don’t want greatness: I want to advance.

[RedHorses]

Based on your clarifying posts.

Go to another trainer. Don’t look back.

[atlatl]

[QUOTE=jbbaclarke;8810226]
…

I realize I sound like an ungrateful jerk.[/QUOTE]

Not at all, you sound like a thinking rider to me.

I agree with the suggestion to change trainers.

Good Luck!