Dressage with relation to Jumping

[thecolorcoal]

Does anyone work their horses in a dressage frame with required dressage movement when schooling on the flat or over fences? I’m finding my horse has a harder time performing dressage training when we change her tack to her jumping bridle and saddle. It’s almost like she knows this isn’t intended to be dressage day. It’s difficult to get her working round and with her back lifted, into the outside rein and leg aids are not as accurately responded to as in dressage. Granted, my horse is very green and has only come back to work after 8 months off with only 4 months of previous training (injury: see poorly fitted saddle my dressage and my jump saddle are both custom flocked/fitted/adjusted ), but I don’t think the tack should matter that much?

Does anyone find it harder to get their jump horses to work from the hind end as opposed to the forehand when schooling on the flat/over fences?

[GoodTimes]

The only tack that changes between flatwork and jumping is the bit for one of my horses. Both are hunters but I flat them as if they were low level dressage horses. Collection, extension, lateral work, correct transitions, in front of my leg, etc.

If both of your saddles fit then I would hazard a guess that you sit up and balance more in the dressage saddle, if you have longer stirrups you’re probably able to wrap your legs around to push forward and ask them to engage their abs and lift their back. I would expect my horse to be soft and supple regardless of the saddle, I would not expect to get the same consistent collection in a jump saddle vs a dressage saddle.

[ladyj79]

Yes most show jumpers I know school regularly in dressage, including employing dressage trainers for themselves.

Some of the younger ones who didn’t focus on flat work had significant difficulties with heavy pulling horses, but now working with dressage trainers are seeing dramatic improvement on course.

No, the tack doesn’t matter.

[PNWjumper]

Short answer: no.

I show h/j but the only regular lessons I take are dressage lessons. I do those in my jump saddle. So I may not be the best one to answer as don’t ever pull out my dressage saddle, so I can’t comment on whether my horses go better (or differently) in it. Though in my handful of experiences, they feel the same between the two saddles.

Why don’t you spend a week or two only in your jump saddle and see if it gets easier? My suspicion is that you are riding differently because of the different position a jumping saddle puts you in versus the dressage saddle.

Also, what’s the difference in your bridles? Different bits? Maybe try your dressage bridle with your jumping saddle and vice versa?

[SendenHorse]

absolutley, it’s all the same for me. Why would you want to jump a horse that is on the forehand, crooked and stiff? I use the same exact bit for everything, though.

Now on to your saddle question:

My horse is the same in each saddle, if anything she is more round in the jump saddle and more through.

I find that I had to work for a few weeks in each saddle, then the transition to each type was easier. My horse wasn’t the issue, I was.

In your situation, just ride in the HJ saddle, there is no reason you can’t do a full dressage school with lateral work, sitting, collection in a jump saddle.

I also can do small jumps in a dressage saddle, just shorten the stirrups a tad.

[foursocks]

I don’t ride my horses on the flat without dressage. It is easier for a horse to be more free in its shoulders with a dressage saddle, but some horses will feel different, and for others it won’t matter much. My TB goes differently in his dressage saddle than his jumping saddle, but my WB doesn’t. The TB events with the person who leases him, so he needs his two saddles, but I can do 2nd and 3rd level stuff on my WB in his jumping saddle.

Both of them go in a HS Duo, or sometimes a French link loose ring for the WB, regardless of the job at hand, without martingales.

[thecolorcoal]

Thank you for everyone’s replies.

she has an ovation lozenge d-ring for dressage. The jump bridle is an ovation lozenge Dutch gag with the setting on the snaffle ring (that’s all I really need). I feel like she should be comfortable in the mouth if I expect her to work correctly. Even still, she is much more on the forehand with the jump saddle (very forward flap, sommer esprit), probably because my position is naturally more forward in this saddle. She is only 7 and is very green and still learning balance. She has a level topline with higher withers than croup but she is more level built than uphill.

if she should stay more universal, then I suppose it means I need to adjust my riding in the jump saddle so she doesn’t feel like her only choice is being on the forehand . This is a horse who has been plagued with back pain due to an ill fitted saddle in which she needed 8 months to recover, so her rounding and using her muscles correctly is imperative for her comfort. We compete in dressage now since it seems she needs more of that than jumping work, and she’s come far.

despite being on the snaffle rein, is the Dutch gag too harsh? In jumping we need more breaks than in dressage.

[ladyj79]

I think a gag is a fine bit, and–like any bit–only as harsh as the rider’s hands.

And yes, it does sound like the issue is more your position.

I was always a rider who rode…too forward. Partly because I grew up in the forward seat era, and partly just bad defensive riding on my part. It took many years and is still a struggle to remind myself to sit up. Sit back. When I first started re-building my default position, my trainer told me the third time he had to tell me to sit back, I had to lay back on the horse’s butt. I am a stronger rider when I don’t lean forward. It is still a struggle, but for me it has really helped to change the very basic position I rode in for so many years.

For me a dressage saddle helps BUT if you go back to leaning forward in your jumping saddle, as I did, I would really stay in the jumping saddle until your default position isn’t leaning forward.

[thecolorcoal]

Thank you, LadyJ79. I must admit, when we had her vetted for the back pain the first time the vet said I could not sit deep and hard on this horse and suggested I “hover” in the saddle in order to keep weight off her back. That has been debunked long ago and the hovering has led to her having an easier time tossing me off as a result of my seat degrading due to fear of hurting her. So I’m teaching myself how to sit deep again. Her topline has come leaps and bounds and she has a strong back, but part of me is still scared to “sit” on her, as any discomfort this horse experiences results in her not using her body correctly and gaining the muscle she needs.

ill try riding in the jump saddle more. If I can master that, maybe the dressage will come easier, too. I’m hypersensitive to any kind of reluctance in this horse since its 75% pain related, but recently it has been a mix of frustration on the horse’s part due to how the rider executes the ride and general “I’m always right” attitude this horse tends to have. I’ve been having a pro ride her all summer twice a week and she’s gotten a lot better and she is much more willing to work correctly in this situation, but she also bucks harder and more furiously with the pro than with me, possibly because my pro is asking much more from her than I do. I don’t get the kind of reactions from her because I sort of… Leave her alone and am not as affective as I can be. I have two trainers: a dressage trainer and a jump trainer and both of them have commented that I am “too nice” and don’t actually ask this horse to work hard…

sort of spun off course… Sorry.

[IPEsq]

Does your jump saddle fit her shoulder with that extra forward flap? Perhaps some of it is your leg position? I find some horses have the go buttons installed in a certain area of the rib cage. Perhaps this is due to how they were trained (by a certain rider, or in a certain style). Perhaps it is part of their preference for where they like pressure. But it is one thing I consider when a horse changes training or grows significantly. For example, my legs go down a lot less far on my current horse than when I got him, because he’s grown a lot. So, my leg pressure changed places, and this affected how he responded to it for a while. It could be that your leg position changes so much that not only is your balance affected by your change in posture, but the horse is not properly sensitized to the leg where it sits in the jump saddle. I’d also be sure the horse has enough range of motion in the shoulder in the jump saddle. You can start by trying to ride in the jump saddle with a longer leg.

[thecolorcoal]

@IPESqu, that is brilliant! I did not think of that - i think that is so telling and so perfect! I am definitely going to see if that helps at all. I need to be more conscious of where my leg is.

[LowerSaxony_Jumper]

I often do my dressage work in my jumping saddle. The dressage saddle is mostly for my seat and being able to ride correctly. It has a reason why dressage saddles are build the way they are.

[mmeqcenter]

I was going to say the same thing as @IPESqu, likely the range of motion in the shoulder is restricted with the jump saddle. I’m getting a shoulder relief girth sometime soon for my jump saddle. My mare isn’t heavy on her forehand in the jump, but it’s very clear she is happier and more elastic in the dressage which is well back behind her shoulder.

[thecolorcoal]

MMeqcenter, she does have big shoulders. My saddle fitter has adjusted the saddle accordingly to allow room for them which is great, because no off-the-rack saddle had that option (this saddle is 100% custom). Do shoulder relief girths work? She said i didn’t need a special girth because of where her girth area is located, but if it helps it helps.

[mmeqcenter]

@thecolorcoal

MMeqcenter, she does have big shoulders. My saddle fitter has adjusted the saddle accordingly to allow room for them which is great, because no off-the-rack saddle had that option (this saddle is 100% custom). Do shoulder relief girths work? She said i didn’t need a special girth because of where her girth area is located, but if it helps it helps.

I don’t know, don’t have one yet. Like most things, they have reviews of both “wow this is magic!” and “didn’t see a difference.”
My saddle is also fitted to my horse from a saddle fitter (not a custom saddle though), who also told me I don’t need a shoulder relief girth, and though it fits her perfectly, it’s just the nature of jump saddles and the forward flaps. I’ll try to remember to comment back when I buy one and let you know if it helped or not.

[Lusoluv]

As a dressage instructor who works with mostly eventers/showjumpers, close contact saddles have the stirrup bar farther forward than dressage saddles. That’s why they’re called forward seat saddles Meaning they draw your balance forward and you’re not as centered as in a dressage saddle. You will have to work harder to keep your heels under your hips vs. a hint of a chair seat. Also, if you do not lower your stirrups a hole or two, you will have to work even harder as the shorter the stirrups, the more the forward stirrup bars affect your posture and balance.

I often get on client horses during a lesson to demonstrate something we’re working on. I rarely adjust their stirrups since I’ll only be on for 10-15 min. Though I can adapt my body and posture quickly in a saddle that’s not fit to me (stirrup length, seat size, etc), most people find it very difficult. Not a criticism, just reality of experience, etc.

This may be why the OP has a harder time keeping her horse on the aids (on the bit) when flatting in jump tack.