(Drifted to shoeing Qs) PSSM2/MFM Question: likelihood considering this diet?

[fivestrideline]

@PaddockWood

Are you able to lunge in big circles, go out for walks

Well, maybe? I took him out today - part of the reason he got retired from riding is a massive amount of tripping. I was hoping with shoeing changes and some other stuff that it would resolve, but if anything it’s happening more.

He stubs his toes (all of them) a lot. Sometimes this escalates into a trip in front or a “flat tire” behind. It doesn’t happen at faster gaits in turnout, but no matter the walk speed or terrain he’s tripping. It doesn’t seem to bother him but it bothers ME.

Is this a PSSM symptom? I’m thinking no?

(For clarity: I’m pursuing other diagnostic work but trying to decide what makes sense to do)

[PaddockWood]

I’d say tripping can definitely be a symptom of tight muscles/PSSM. When I got my guy two years ago one of my observations was being short strided and also grumpy about bodywork on his pecs and underneath and the inside of his elbow etc. His feet were long, flared and hadn’t had regular trimming in a year.

Since then I keep his toes short and his walls just outside the white line. I rasp in between the trimmer visits. Never the sole. With that and bodywork and probably everything else - a long long list - you wouldn’t watch him move now and point out being short strided. Or at least not like when I got him. You wouldn’t also comment how beautifully he comes out at the shoulder though either.

Would you put up video of your guy walking and trotting on the lunge and his feet?

[fivestrideline]

Okay round 3 let’s try again . Here’s what I could get today out there by myself.

Round pen trot:

Wesley round pen trot 2/25/24

In hand walk - near the end of this you see a mild version of the stub/trip that makes me nervous:

Wesley in hand walk 2/25/24

And here at the end you see a bit of the rope walking he does when going downhill:

Wes in hand walk 2/25/24

I still think it’s something else, but if anyone has resolved these type of issues with a PSSM management change I’m all ears

[IPEsq]

KER and Dr Valberg took a survey of horse owners feeding the MFM pellet product. Here is a summary of the results. [I bought the product but my horse had GI discomfort from it and then I found out it’s mostly soybean which he’s allergic to, so I don’t have any useful personal experience to report but they did send me the survey and results.]

https://ker.my.salesforce.com/sfc/p/#j0000000Jw0f/a/Jx000000S9Jh/8ZyTKB1K6lRsn_vDIJXEVb5rWk8ocyVk9ElQ2OpfXGM

[fivestrideline]

Interesting… I’m assuming their exercise recommendations are on their regular site?

[IPEsq]

https://ker.com/nmdl/resources/mfm/

[PaddockWood]

That video is so valuable. He sure seems pretty willing at the trot in the round pen and even pretty good in his shoulders and coming out nicely through his leg but then it does start to change in an odd way. Like in his neck?

The other videos are very very worthwhile and I see the stabbing into the ground and the stiffness in the second videos.

He sure is cute and wants to be good.

Did you already rule out PSSM1 with the hair analysis at UC Davis?

[PaddockWood]

It would be helpful to see up close photos of his feet too. I’m sure others will comment on what they see and thoughts on his movement in the video. I know many feel the Equisec hair analysis is of value. Have you considered doing that?

Did you say you ruled out EPM and Lyme?

[PaddockWood]

And what’s your history with him. How long have you had him and what have you been able to do with him?

[fivestrideline]

@PaddockWood

Did you say you ruled out EPM and Lyme?

By titer, a couple weeks ago yes. Nothing of note.

@PaddockWood

Did you already rule out PSSM1 with the hair analysis at UC Davis?

No, as up until recently I was under the impression it was not possible in full TBs - this one is tattooed and everything. Can that be done without going through the vet, or do I need them to come by if only to rule out PSSM1?

@PaddockWood

It would be helpful to see up close photos of his feet too

I can do that. FWIW - his feet are great quality, though we have him in 1 and 2 degree wedges up front (done by X-ray) and bare behind. One hind foot has a flare that just won’t correct and we think is an issue higher up (he always stands with it turned out).

@PaddockWood

And what’s your history with him. How long have you had him and what have you been able to do with him?

I’ve had him almost a decade, he’s not been doing anything in years however due to pervasive back pain and moving around (plus some awful farrier work and his various injuries and lack of time on my end). At one point he was jumping around 2’9" competitively, but somewhere around age 9 we started having issues. He has KS.

[fivestrideline]

@Amberley

In the video it looks like he does not know where his front feet are

Honestly this is my thinking, moreso than soreness. Well, he’s probably sore, too.

[fivestrideline]

Anyways, back on topic:

Is there any harm in DIYing the GA of the MFM pellet just to see? I think I can finagle his diet to mirror the nutrient profile for a fraction of the cost - whether he will eat it is TBD.

The high fat PSSM1 diet is far easier for me to do, but seeing as that’s unlikely I’m leaning this way. I will run it past my vet of course and I’m also compiling a video report for them of my “There’s No Way This Is ‘Just’ Ulcers Can We Please Dig Deeper” presentation - in case anyone thought I was ignoring the other weirdness in him that doesn’t point towards a muscle issue.

[Junebuggie]

My mare was diagnosed 6 months ago via muscle biopsy with PSSM2/MFM. The biopsy was a last ditch effort after working for over a year to figure out what was wrong with her. I posted more details here in this thread

Figuring out a NQR horse is like peeling an onion. Buckle up! (another good update post #32 MFM diagnosis)

I’ve learned so much from these threads, especially over the last year as I’ve had setback after setback with my wonderful mare, So to start: 10 yo KWPN I’ve had her since she was five. Last summer we earned our bronze medal, She is my love, and I absolutely adore her. Late last summer, she also developed a weird swelling in her left front fetlock, no heat, no soreness. Through the fall she was perfectly sound but every once in awhile, she would take a funny step, changing direction. As we got…

We are currently back working at our previous level 3rd-4th level and while some days aren’t great on the whole, she’s a completely different horse.

Here’s her current management:

Buckeye gro 'n win
KER MFM pellets (crazy expensive but you can replicate w/ individual ingredients)
KER EO-3 oil
KER CoQ10
emcelle liquid vitamin e
spirulina
Jiaogulan
assure guard
Mag-restore magnesium
Santa Cruz B-12 pellets
and hay of course in a slow feeder because she is an air fern!

I’m happy to fill in more on the whole journey…oh and the PSSM2 forum on facebook is great!

[PaddockWood]

My gut feeling after spending way way too many hours researching PSSM and having a horse who DNA tested at 36% European Heavy Horse and moves like the expression you hear about Warmbloods - Dumbloods. Now we know they’re not TRYING to be unresponsive…they just feel like glue is attached everywhere. Or worse. My PSSM horse - mostly pretty slow moving most of the time, stops and acts stuck, reluctant to move - which is a defining criteria for PSSM.

Your guy looks pretty willing and has energy - he just has “other” things going on. That’s my take.

My gut is it’s not PSSM. Kissing spine and foot pain - that’s where I’d put my money.

[IPEsq]

I think you can get some of the ingredients via Bulk Supplements. That’s where I buy ALCAR. But even starting with another complete protein like whey would be a start towards supplementing the aminos.

KER is a good company to deal with, though, if you want to give that product a try to see if your horse will respond. Because I had fed a little bit of the MFM pellet when I realized my horse couldn’t tolerate it, I couldn’t return it. But I did give it away to another COTH-er to try, and KER gave me store credit for the amount I spent (which I used to buy their HA supplement for a bit).

His spinal pain is significant, however, and that can cause a sort of neuromuscular windup that persists. It’s also why you have trouble correcting his hoof angles. That he has responded to the Gabapentin suggests that a true muscle disease may not be the bulk of his problem. And you have actual diagnosis for at least some of his pain. Did you ever image his neck?

[fivestrideline]

@IPEsq

Did you ever image his neck?

It’s up next. Vet didn’t want to - I think I need to convince her that despite having no need for him to be in any work, I want to figure this out. That’s why I’m getting video. That, or I haul him to VT. There are some things that could be SI damage, but neck issues are high on my list.

I really think this is something else besides PSSM now, but FWIW I finally de-bell booted and de-mucked his feet since I think it was @PaddockWood that asked - and I’m not sure the shoeing is helping. I’m thinking he may get to go back to barefoot if only to save my wallet. Maybe we go to flat pads first, I’ll ask the farrier.

[fivestrideline]

Don’t eat me or my farrier alive please - this horse has historically struggled to correct his angles. I’m aware that these pics are not to standard for giving any shoeing advice, I just snapped them when I had a couple seconds.

[JB]

How long since the last trim, and how many trims has he done on this horse?

[PaddockWood]

Well bless your heart because you clearly are trying to do the right thing. Between the bull nose and underrun heels I’d bet he’s pretty uncomfortable. Could we see the underside too? Really curious.

[fivestrideline]

@JB

How long since the last trim, and how many trims has he done on this horse?

4 weeks out since the last reset? And he’s done him… I think 4 times. 3 shoeings and one or two barefoot trims.

@PaddockWood

Well bless your heart because you clearly are trying to do the right thing.

lol southern me took this SUPER snarky for a second but I’m pretty sure you didn’t mean it that way

@PaddockWood

Between the bull nose and underrun heels I’d bet he’s pretty uncomfortable. Could we see the underside too? Really curious.

Yeah to be fair, it’s been a fight to fix those for years and with multiple farriers across several states. But yeah I can see about undersides - the pads block almost everything up front. He HAS lost all his good frog up front, though the hinds have widened a lot.