(Drifted to shoeing Qs) PSSM2/MFM Question: likelihood considering this diet?

[fivestrideline]

My Mr NQR (with incredible muscle tightness for no discernible reason) has me stumped. We are chasing it, but in the meantime my bodyworker put PSSM2/MFM on my radar. My understanding is that these are high protein needs horses, and in theory one can feed “the diet” and watch for changes to see how likely that dx might be. To be fair, the biggest change in him has come when treating for ulcers and adding a daily pain killer (at the same time… of course ), so I don’t think these muscle diseases are likely. Robaxin doesn’t seem to help.

Anyways, as far as I can tell my horse is getting 1500g protein a day. He’s on TC 30, 3ish lb K&E, hay pellets, and grass hay (sometimes a round bale, sometimes squares thrown over the fence 2x daily). I could add another AA supp, or BCAA supp, but I’m unsure how to tell if that’s overkill/too much.

He’s a TB so I’m assuming PSSM1 is out, but he’s on a higher fat diet (though not as high as he’s been on before). Thoughts?

ETA he’s on 5000mg Magnesium, and 2500 IU E as well… not sure if that matters.

[JB]

PSSM1 does exist in TB, it’s just not very common at all. You can at least rule that out

Not all MIM variants do well on a high protein diet, which is frustrating. Sometimes they need extra BCAAs, so that’s something you could try

Have you done blood work for E and Se? If not, consider that too.

[fivestrideline]

@JB

PSSM1 does exist in TB, it’s just not very common at all. You can at least rule that out

Huh. Color me (and google) misinformed!

@JB

Have you done blood work for E and Se? If not, consider that too.

I have not. It would be an easy add to spring shots though, so I’ll have them do that. None of the other horses eating the same things in the last decade have been like this, so I feel like it’s unlikely. Unless he’s just been chronically low despite E supplementation of at least 2500IU and up to 8000IU for years?

Se hasn’t been on my radar at all. But he’s been all over the country and stayed like this, so that might be interesting.

@JB

Sometimes they need extra BCAAs, so that’s something you could try

Okay! Maybe I can do that while I wait on vet money and testing. Being different than just a regular AA supp, I’ll have to go shopping.

[Sdel]

Have you tried gabapentin? That has done wonders for my chronic tight muscle horse.

[JB]

@fivestrideline

Huh. Color me (and google) misinformed!

“The prevalence of type 1 PSSM is very low in light horse breeds such as Arabians and Thoroughbreds,” said Valberg.

Update: PSSM in Horses - Kentucky Equine Research

It’s just so uncommon that most think it’s not a thing

@fivestrideline

Unless he’s just been chronically low despite E supplementation of at least 2500IU and up to 8000IU for years?

Yeah, you’re right, that level of supplementation almost guarantees no deficiency

[fivestrideline]

@Sdel

Have you tried gabapentin? That has done wonders for my chronic tight muscle horse.

That’s what he is on!

Sudden huge change for the better in his personality. Muscles are still crazy tight (and gabapentin works on a lot of sources of pain) so we are still trying to root out the cause

[Sdel]

How long? It takes a while. At least it’s really cheap.

For my horse the source is his neck.

[Pepsy]

Hi there,
I am dealing with a horse with very tight muscles who was found to be selenium deficient, low E in December. I suggest ruling Selenium/E issues out ASAP as it takes awhile to replenish selenium. Good Luck

[fivestrideline]

@Sdel

How long? It takes a while. At least it’s really cheap

Two and a half weeks? Ish? Saw a marked improvement in attitude and soreness after about a week. Unfortunately that coincides with the completion of a month of omeprazole, which muddies the waters.

@JB is the 1500g protein plenty for a potential PSSM2 case? Or would adding more (not just BCAAs, maybe whey protein) be fine? I can’t seem to find any hard numbers on how much is “enough”.

I’m suspicious this is an arthritis or bone issue at its core, but I’m just chipping away at things while I make money to hand straight to my vet

[Sdel]

Give it another 2-3 weeks. The longer mine has been on it the better his muscles have gotten.

Cold still seems to affect my guy but we are starting to hit the warm temps so it’s less and less.

[JB]

@fivestrideline

is the 1500g protein plenty for a potential PSSM2 case? Or would adding more (not just BCAAs, maybe whey protein) be fine? I can’t seem to find any hard numbers on how much is “enough”.

1500 is plenty but if you’re able to make some swaps, you could reduce that a bit and add in whey protein. Or, you could just add in the whey protein (isolate) and see what happens. If you get a positive result, then you could try lowering the other protein if possible. There aren’t hard numbers unfortunately as it seems to be about the individual unfortunately.

And to Sdel’s comment - if he’s not blanketed, add one. If he’s got a medium, try a heavy. Some of these guys need ricidulous blankets. I’ve got a friend in TN - so cold but not AK cold - whose MIM horse often wears a heavy over a medium, with a full neck, to be happy

[fivestrideline]

Thanks! I could maybe make some swaps, but not super easily.

He’s got the heaviest blankets of anyone out there - whatever the other horses have on, he’s got one step up. Last night he went out in a 220g when everyone else was either in a no fill or naked.

[RedHorses]

How much exercise does he get? I have s PSSM horse who I’ve been managing since before different types of PSSM were identified. I can’t tell you which type he has because I figured out what works for him.

He turned around in 3-4 months when I made the dietary changes. Exercise has always been very important, even though he lives out full time. The past year plus has made exercise difficult with his lameness issues, and he started rope walking (every hoof lands on one line like he’s walking on a tightrope) last summer. I was concerned about it, then discovered it can be a sign of PSSM. Some carefully increased hand walking exercise fixed that. He really needs it as close to daily as I can manage, especially when it’s just hand walking.

I have his needs figured out, but little things can upset the balance - second cut grass hay, shared apples in the paddock from another boarder (she never did it again after I mentioned it to her). It’s subtle, like NQR lameness. I learned to keep riding, low stress, instead of giving the day off on those days.

[fivestrideline]

That sounds a lot like PSSM1! This one is out 24/7 but in no work because he’s been SO uncomfortable. He loves his handwalks on the trail though so I plan to start those back up. He trips so much though I have to wait for good footing.

It’ll be interesting to get him out again since adding the gabapentin.

[Sdel]

I’ve gone round and round with different people about if my guy is PSSM2 or not. He tied up last summer, head to tail. It was ungodly hot, so I’m not sure if that was more of a heat/electrolytes or if we over did it on the carrot stretches and it was his neck arthritis or something else. He has had gait issues ever since I brought him home and he stopped working: canter, rope walk, toe drag. The animal communicator only comes back with “very tight miscles” and anticipates pain in the neck and shoulder when ridden. His muscles do get very bunchy and/or flat and hard, especially in the shoulder/neck. Depending on the temp he goes from no topline to a decent topline. He was at a trainer’s to be evaluated and he went from being a W/T horse who didn’t care if you were bouncing on him while the temps were warm to bucking, rearing, can’t stand still in the cross ties mess as soon as the weather got cold. But that trainer said he didn’t feel like a PSSM horse under saddle.

So, just you’re not the only one out there dealing with a horse that just can’t seem to be comfortable and is difficult to figure out.

[PaddockWood]

I’m just a sample of one but bought a mustang coming up on two years ago that had so many odd behaviors and it’s been a journey. Reluctance to move and even while out hand walking would stop like he was “stuck”.

One of many diagnoses and problems was biopsy and + for PSSM2. I DNA tested and he’s 36% European Heavy Horse. I also recently had a consult w Clair Thunes, PhD in equine nutrition, and she upp’d our protein to 1250gms protein and I do feed both Santa Cruz BCAAs and also ALCAR - Uckele is the source. I’ve fed the AAs and BCAAs for a while now and did definitely notice a remarkable softening of his muscles. His hind end felt very very tight and now soft. He has some old tears and lumps and big bumps in his hind end - muscle damage.

I also keep my guy blanketed to where he feels warm at all times. It’s interesting how cold he feels compared to my mare with much less of a coat. Before I got the dx (a year ago) I noticed he rolled every single day no matter how cold or wet etc and that has stopped with the blanketing. Think he feels much more comfortable and the rolling was discomfort.

He’s also more forward and now going under saddle at the trot but still does not want to canter. Just fine out in the field so I’m thinking he needs big space and straight lines.

So, after your ulcer treatment how much of an improvement have you noticed? Is he still not in work or able to be ridden?

[WNT]

Is that 1250g protein whole ration including your forage? Just curious.

[PaddockWood]

Yes it is. 1041 lb horse.

[fivestrideline]

@PaddockWood

So, after your ulcer treatment how much of an improvement have you noticed? Is he still not in work or able to be ridden?

The attitude and general soreness has improved, no change since the ulcer treatment ended (yet). He’s in no work, since he was collapse-when-touched sore and SO uncomfortable. Now he’s back to enjoying a grooming session at least.

My impression is that there’s an underlying pathology that is causing his discomfort. Gabapentin seems to have helped, but hasn’t made the issue dissolve entirely. A muscle disorder might make sense - hence why I’m here tossing around PSSM questions.

[PaddockWood]

Are you able to lunge in big circles, go out for walks, and do bodywork? My PSSM2 guy can be quite reluctant to begin a trot session after walking 10 min but once we get going I can tell he feels better and starts moving more willingly. And we’ve got him doing formal exercise 5 days a week - 20 min split between walk and trot.

Someone else said rightly that exercise is so important. Are you able to do something even though it’s not ridden and what is that like?