driving a hot horse--bad idea?

[Shiaway]

Hi. It’s me with another driving question.

Would you drive a ‘hot’ horse?

So let me describe the situation. I have a 9 year old Lusitano gelding. He’s super duper cute and has a superb personality (his best quality). And he is also very level headed and brave. He’s not easily scared of something but like every horse he can be afraid of some things but he’s very willing and will often conquer his fears. That’s why I say he’s brave–he’ll do something even if he’s scared, if I ask him to. Like he’s terrified of water but I got him (with a lot of convincing and it helped to have another horse) in the ocean. And once in he was much easier to get to go in again. He’s very bright.

But he is ‘hot’ in that he’s got lots of energy and pep. He’s a very “go” type horse and he does get nervous about stuff–like the whip for example. Although it seems cross fingers he’s getting over that one slowly.

My dressage trainer (who I don’t think knows too much about driving) said it’s not a good idea to drive him because he’s too hot. She’s worried he could bolt and I wouldn’t be able to stop him with a cart. I think she’s been here done that and probably seen some bad accidents with carts so that’s why she says that.

The other thing is that my guy was long lined in the Portuguese style and consequently he gets very upset when I try to ground drive him. He thinks it’s time to piaffe and he’ll go into that mode and act pretty nervous. He’ll kind of come out of it though after a little bit and then he’ll be ok but he just gets worked up because he tries so hard to please you and if he doesn’t know what you want he gets upset. He also thinks you’re going to smack him with the whip when you long line him so he gets nervous about it. But I really have not done much ground driving with him so I feel he could get more comfortable if I did it more.

Do you think it would be a bad idea to try to drive a horse like this? I’d like to do it some day… when I have the money to buy a cart (I have a harness from when I was driving my STB and it fits my lusitano, perfect). But I certainly don’t want to get myself killed trying it. I’d probably bring him to a driving trainer to help me out when I started. I don’t feel all that confident in my driving abilities to do it on my own.

Ifelt fine driving my STB because he was so laid back and calm. He was NOT a ‘go’ type horse by any means LOL He’d rather just stop. So I felt like a monkey could have driven him. But my lusitano is a million times more sensitive about everything.

Thanks in advance.

[Shiaway]

Here is a photo of him. You can see how he gets a bit tight/tense. This saddle was never ridden in before and I think it wasn’t very comfortable for him so it made him really tight. But even several days after this ride he was tight and my trainer had to get on him and ride for quite a long time before he finally came out of it. (please ignore my fat @$$)

http://s215.photobucket.com/albums/cc294/supersol25/Sol%20in%20Costume/?action=view&current=IMG_3500.jpg

[Renae]

For an experienced driver driving a hot horse is no problem. However if you are a beginner/intermediate driver and the idea of driving a hot horse makes you nervous you should not do it.

Also if someone has tried to teach a horse piaffe and passage via the method of doing it in long lines and using a whip on their hind legs and in the process made the horse nervous of long lines and whips the horse would need some pretty significant retraining before a person would even think about hitching it. When you are driving your reins, whip and voice are your primary aids and driving becomes a lot less safe, IMO, if you have a horse that is afraid of or oversensitive to the wip and you can not use it whn it is needed for fear that the horse will overreact.

[Cartfall]

Shiaway,

I drive “hot” horses, two of them–both Arabians. Both are bold, forward, and trust me not to take them places they will be hurt. Zanzer, my youngster, may stop look at it but when I ask he will go. We did that at Nature Coast HDT BIG water hazard this past weekend. WE walked that hazard, but he went. I would not want any other type of horse in front of me.

I would be concerned about this issue of lines and things on his legs due to the training he received. I have to agree with Renae here, with a significant amount of retraining and building his trust in you needs to be done. Lots of groudn driving until he is really really comfortable with it sounds to me the way to go.

He is a nice looking horse by the way.

[Shiaway]

Thanks. He’s not so afraid of things on his legs. I think it’s more that probably someone in Brazil gave him a nice smack to get him to start piaffing and he isn’t the kind of horse who would ever need a nice smack for anything.

He’s starting to get used to the idea of me holding a whip. Last time I was down to visit him (he’s down south with my trainer for training) I was able to even touch him with the whip and not get an over-reaction from him. He used to kind of scoot forward if he got touched by the whip at all.

I think I might try ground driving him a little more frequently just at a walk in the ring to see if he’ll calm down a little bit. Like I said, I really have not done it that much.

It’s so funny how he is not scared of objects and spooky-stuff but when it comes to things that are people-related that’s when he gets nervous. For instance. A tarp flapping in the wind. No big deal. Someone holding a pitch fork or wheelbarrow–don’t let them near me! He’s not afraid of the object he’s afraid of the person hurting him with the object. I don’t feel he was abused. I think he is just sensitive and perhaps he was not handled with that in mind. He was a stud until he was 5 and I think that the brazilins and portuguese tend to handle their horses in a certain manner (and I think it works out well for a lot of their horses who are usually stallions) but they didn’t adjust for him and I think he needed to be handled a little more gently because of how sensitive he can be.

I realized this about him within a few weeks of buying him. He was crosstied in the isle and started to get excited because a stallion in the stall was egging him on. So he struck out and I said “Hey!” and pointed my finger at him and he got so upset he backed up so fast he broke the cross tie. Then I realized he doesn’t need much to be told how to behave.

[Ashemont]

Instead of a lot of second-guessing and looking to a dressage trainer for advice, I think you should take your horse to a GOOD driving trainer for a couple of weeks. That would be long enough for you to find out what the horse’s potential is as a driving horse. Much safer for all concerned, too. Then I would be willing to take the advice of the DRIVING trainer. JMO

[hobbyhorse23]

It’s good that you recognize the kind of temperament he has. Horses like that will absolutely flourish if constantly praised and reassured that they are pleasing you. Like you said, they just want to know they are doing things right and worry terribly if they think they’ve messed up. Reassure him, take your time with him, and above all things keep his job interesting and fun and set him up for success. If he gets worried about ground driving then don’t do it in a formal way he’ll recognize! Take him for a walk out on the trail and slowly drop back into that position. Reward him, play with him, make it a game and as unlike the situation that makes him nervous as possible. Reward him for every little step (walking happily with you by his shoulder, by his barrel, by his hip, by his tail…) If he looks nervous and unhappy even for a moment move back up until he relaxes and then praise him for being brave. Laugh with him! Time with your horse should be a joy for both of you.

Give him lots of space to think his way through things with the mentality of “Warm, warmer, getting warmer, Good Boy!!” Don’t push him. As long as he comes to see working with you as a game and a place he can earn praise if he thinks hard enough rather than “Oh God, here we go again. I’m going to mess up, I know I am!” he’ll make amazing progress.

No one can say if he’ll eventually make a driving horse, but if he trusts you enough to work through his quite-reasonable human-instilled fears he’ll at least have a chance. There’s nothing wrong with a spirited horse as long as they’ve got their heads on straight.

Leia

[CDE_Driver]

[QUOTE=Ashemont;2963740]
Instead of a lot of second-guessing and looking to a dressage trainer for advice, I think you should take your horse to a GOOD driving trainer for a couple of weeks. That would be long enough for you to find out what the horse’s potential is as a driving horse. Much safer for all concerned, too. Then I would be willing to take the advice of the DRIVING trainer. JMO[/QUOTE]

Ditto what Pat said!

[Shiaway]

Thanks again to everyone for your advice!

[Drive_NJ]

If you are still up in NH - excellent people to possibly give you an evaluation would be Robin or Wilson Groves over in Brownsville VT

They have years of experience and both have driven “hot” horses over the years - with great competitive success

[Trakehner]

Hot horses are fun to drive, they tend to be responsive and happily chugging down the road.

BUT…not for a beginner.

As has been suggested…Get thee to a trainer, the can let you know pretty quickly if your guy will do well as a driving horse.

Have fun, be safe.

[Thomas_1]

I’ve trained a lot of lusitanos. Generally I’ve always found them pretty biddable and bright and with a lot of potential and ability.

Yours looks a nice sort and its nice to see the traditional classical riding tack and attire. I don’t know how experienced you are at long reining or driving, but for that you are totally dependent on your hands and voice.

Now if you have an “old faithful” that will just plod along no matter what the person is doing at the back, then you’ll get away with things. But for a novice, young, intelligent or opinionated horse you need to do it right or you will get evasion.

Because of the length of reins with driving and long reining you have a much greater leverage and so its vital that you have light hands. I notice in your riding photos that your horse is pulled in from the front using hands rather than collected and engaged through the hind quarters and when that’s the case your horse is grimacing, tense and evading. If when under long reins and trying to move him forward you had such a hold and so much tension on the reins and bit then I’d expect him to either go up or to bounce on the spot - dependent on how high or low your hands were.

I’m thinking you’ve not driven horses before though because of what you’ve posted and for me that’s the issue. Novice driver and novice driving horse is NEVER a good combination - no matter whether its hot and intelligent and well trained or a stupid hard of thinking numpty.

Because your interested in classical training and riding and that’s how he’s already been produced then I’d suggest that by all means if you want to add another element to his schooling then have him trained as a ride and drive lusitano but I highly recommend that you have it done professionally by an experienced driving trainer and instructor. And if you are intent on driving him, then I’d suggest that a year ahead of getting him put to harness you need to get started with regular driving tuition with a school master horse. He/she would also help you with long reining for driving. If you want to produce him classically for driving, then learn to drive coachman or auchenback style rather than with a rein in either hand. If you get a year of good tuition under your belt and then have him put to harness and drive him supervised by your trainer for a while then it may work out. But its a big investment and a lot of “what ifs” but this can work out.

I’ve currently got a classically trained lipezzaner mare being put to harness for a lady owner who came a year ago to start lessons. Now she’s an equine vet and a very experienced owner rider and she’s been a year of minimum once a week driving tuition. Her horse is now to harness but only being driven currently by me and my experienced staff. She’s sat in twice and will be taking the reins for the first time on Wednesday and we’re thinking she’ll have about 10 to 12 lessons before she takes her home again. In addition we’re driving her daily too and continuing to bring her on.

[Shiaway]

Thomas,

Those pictures were of a day I dressed up in borrowed tack my friend had to take just a few pictures. I don’t feel they are very respresentative of my riding or my horse’s training. He was very disturbed by the saddle and tack he was unfamiliar with (I don’t know if you can tell but the noseband is completly floppy and loose because it didn’t fit him and the saddle was so loose I could have fallen off if I lean in one direction) and also we were not really given time to warm up. It was a mistake on my part to push it because my trainer and the photographer (also a friend) were not very happy with each other and so the “photo shoot” was really not the best at all.

I have not done the training of my horse. Of course I had sat on him and ride him and when I’m on him then I obviously am training him whether I like it or not but for the past 9 months before this pic was taken my trainer had ridden him. Actually it went like this: 9 months, my trainer rode him (taught me on him on weekends), then she was injured (not by a horse) and couldn’t ride for 6 months during which I rode him in as many lessons (usually 2-3/week) I could get.

And my trainer has trained many horses up to GP and 2 students to the olympics and I feel she has done a fabulous job with my horse who wouldn’t even let someone approuch him on the ground when I first came to her (he used to run away if you were riding him and someone approuched) and couldn’t canter at all. When she first got on him she could only do litteraly one stride of canter on the left lead. That was it.

If he looks braced and tight, as I said it’s because of that day and because of my crappy riding. Not his training. He is not a complicated horse to ride at all but he is hard for me because he would rather do anything but carry you. He has very poor conformation and he has a hard time giving his back. Even with my trainer he has trouble staying round and relaxed. He’ll be fine but any little second he’d rather drop his back. My trainer is currently working on it with him now and he’s gotten so much better and stronger but because I’m not much of a rider I have the trouble to keep him round.

Before this ride we were doing really well and he was light in the bridle and carrying me much better and then we had this ride… It’s like you can’t do anything to shake him up or he gets tight like that. Like after the trailer ride down south he got like that again. And unfortunatly, I don’t have the ability to get him out of it so I have to rely on my trainer. I feel I’m just starting to be able to keep him good once he’s good though.

I had done just a little bit of driving with my STB. He was very good at it. I took lessons with him. He’s not really a plod type horse but he’s not hot either. He had never been driven before so far as I know. He doesn’t have a racing record so I can only assume he might have been raced but never won anything. So he might have been trained to drive a sulkey when he was very young.

I definitly will look up someone (maybe my previous driving trainer) to help me if I drive Sol. I think I have to wait a while because right now I’m in grad school. I have a harness but not a cart nor the money to pay for driving lessons. So I’ll stick with riding.

[Ashemont]

[QUOTE=Shiaway;2967327]
He has very poor conformation and he has a hard time giving his back. Even with my trainer he has trouble staying round and relaxed. He’ll be fine but any little second he’d rather drop his back. [/QUOTE]

This horse definitely sounds like a candidate for a Pessoa Training System! Once he builds the correct muscles and strength without a rider I’d be willing to bet he’d be a lot happier carrying one

[Yip]

I wouldn’t try to advise anyone on this board of anything - but I wanted to tell you, Shiaway, that your gelding is just gorgeous! And my favorite color to boot. Along with red bay.

Wendy/Yip
NC

[Shiaway]

Thanks Yip. I think they call it Roselo but it’s hard to see (he’s clipped). I think he’ll become flea bitten unfortunatly.

[MSP]

OP, regarding your horses fear of whips…

My Stb was beaten by a drunken trainer before my cousin (a race trainer) acquired him. I was also told he had been hitched to a cart and backed up to a building and beaten which ended in a wreck.

Not only was I able to rehab him physically but I was able to ride and drive him; he eventually trusted me enough to use a dressage whip. He was comfortable with me and whips but didn’t trust anyone else with a whip. He would get very aggressive; rear and try to strike at anyone holding a whip. I rode him with a dressage whip but I never drove him with one and I never hitched him to any thing but a jog cart. Every year that went by he got better about the whip until finally it was no problem at all.

AS a side note his biggest problem because of the wreck was his fear of backing. It took literally years to get him to back up. It was all about trust adn time.

For a STB he was very hot; a whole lot of GO! My father was unable to drive him (complete novice) and I always described riding him as strapping your self to a rocket. I loved it; he fulfilled my need for speed!

I don’t think you will have a problem getting him over the whip phobia; horses have a great ability to heal. BTW, he is very pretty!

[Shiaway]

thanks MSP. That’s truly and inspiring story. I love STBs and I would also love to beat the guy who beat your horse with a whip.

My goal in my riding is to be good enough someday to be able to rescue OTSTBS to retrain and sell to good homes. I don’t know if I’ll ever get there but it is my dream. I think there are so many who could do a lot of different things–dressage, eventing, driving, jumping etc. I evented my guy. He didn’t have a very good canter or much of a jump but he was so willing that his temperment made up for it. And he was a lot of fun.

My other stb, if someone had done the orthoscopy surgery (maybe it wasn’t around then) on him when he was young (he has bone chips in his ankles) I’m sure he could have been a great horse under saddle or in front of a cart. He has a lot of spark. He’s a bit spooky but I think that’s just because he’s spent his whole life in a pasture. I think if he had grown up getting exposed to more things he wouldn’t be so spooky. At the same time he’s not all that dangerous when he’s spooky. It’s more like he’s fidgity but he doesn’t bolt or completly loose it. He just looks at things and will do little jumps on the spot.

They’re great horses.

[Thomas_1]

[QUOTE=Shiaway;2967327]
Thomas,

Those pictures were of a day I dressed up in borrowed tack my friend had to take just a few pictures. I don’t feel they are very respresentative of my riding or my horse’s training. [/QUOTE] Now personally I think the fact he was evading isn’t a bad thing at all in the circumstances. Personally speaking I much prefer horses with opinions and who let you know that something is going wrong

Too often horses because cowed by such as constant poor riding and driving and ill fitting tack etc etc etc. In my opinion its those that do themselves the most disservice. Ultimately that sort often learn that if they evade, they suffer by being further corrected. So in time they plod on regardless and suffer in silence and furthermore they lull the rider/driver/handler into thinking they’re experienced and to demonstrate confidence beyond their true competence. With some breeds you are more likely than less likely to get away with such.

Horses that are well produced and brought on with light hands and light aids and with things correct every day often take HUGE exception when its not what they are used to.

In my experience a well produced Lusitano won’t like it if you do something that it considers to be wrong and it will let you know.

I’m thinking that when you describe him being nervous with the whip and long lines that its his way of telling you that you’re not doing it to his high standard. I can see he’s objecting fiercely to the contact in the ridden photos and if you’ve got 5 times the length of leverage (at least) and a rein in each hand and are trying to use a whip as well then you’ll be doing all sorts which he’ll feel at his mouth.

If he looks braced and tight, as I said it’s because of that day and because of my crappy riding.Not his training.
I could see from the photos exactly what was cause and effect but perhaps I just attempted to express it more diplomatically. Take advantage. Its not what I’m known for :winkgrin: (I also tend to be famous for tending to blame the rider rather than the horse.)

He is not a complicated horse to ride at all but he is hard for me because he would rather do anything but carry you. He has very poor conformation and he has a hard time giving his back.
I personally wouldn’t say “very poor”. I’ve seen a lot worse and I mean EVER SUCH a lot and MUCH MUCH worse

Before this ride we were doing really well and he was light in the bridle and carrying me much better and then we had this ride… It’s like you can’t do anything to shake him up or he gets tight like that. Like after the trailer ride down south he got like that again. And unfortunatly, I don’t have the ability to get him out of it so I have to rely on my trainer. I feel I’m just starting to be able to keep him good once he’s good though.
So he has opinions and he lets you know and you’re doing the right thing by having him produced properly and then bringing yourself on with the guidance of a good trainer. Really that’s no different to what I suggested you need to do if you come to decide that driving is something you’d like to do with him.

I had done just a little bit of driving with my STB. He was very good at it. I took lessons with him. He’s not really a plod type horse but he’s not hot either. He had never been driven before so far as I know. He doesn’t have a racing record so I can only assume he might have been raced but never won anything. So he might have been trained to drive a sulkey when he was very young.
So if he’d never been driven then how did you come to drive him? A horse has either been driven or it hasn’t and again IME its VERY easy to know and within minutes of attaching long reins and driving them.

I have a harness but not a cart nor the money to pay for driving lessons. So I’ll stick with riding.
Sensible because although folks sometimes will try to persuade others that you can drive on the cheap and its readily affordable, I personally don’t have the foggiest idea how.

What you will be able to do though if you know how to drive is to ride him and teach him the likes of voice commands and if you do that when you ride it helps with any subsequent driving schooling.

Likewise learning to long rein (coachman style) is going to be a fantastic skill for you and fantastic way for you to continue on with his training and build the relationship with him. Then once your circumstances change he’ll be much easier to make the next step to go into full driving harness and be put to.

[Ashemont]

[QUOTE=Thomas_1;2969846]
(I also tend to be famous for tending to blame the rider rather than the horse.)[/QUOTE]

As has every single GOOD trainer I’ve ever worked with - English, western, dressage, etc.
But how do you tell that to your spouse???