Hi all
I have a draft/tb who is 6 years old. Thinking about teaching him to drive. Just wondering if this affects riding? For better or worse?
I’ve found that driving only improves riding. It helps build topline, fine-tunes communication, develops a stronger relationship if approached correctly. Do you have a professional who can help you start your horse?
I don’t have a professional as of this moment. Is it possible to “do it yourself”? I have had 2 horses I drove, both came taught.
Just about everyone on this board will tell you no, you are far better off with help when introducing a driving horse to harness. Are there people who start their own without experience at starting or help to do so? Yep. Do they and their horses have “holes” in training? Yep. Are there books that can help? Again, yep.
It is well worth finding someone to help you start, even if that means traveling or waiting. I speak from serious experience.
I promise you it’s worth it!! You’re about to become addicted to a sport you will love forever!
Dale
[QUOTE=workinggirl;3290366]
Hi all
I have a draft/tb who is 6 years old. Thinking about teaching him to drive. Just wondering if this affects riding? For better or worse?[/QUOTE] Every one of my own driving horses is (has been) ride and drive. (Though I’ve quite a few riding horses that don’t drive).
Its becoming increasingly common for folks with money and who have top level driving horses to buy high end ridden dressage horses to put to harness. There’s quite a few over here that compete upper levels both HDT (CDE) and ridden dressage.
Several of my own have competed high level in 2 disciplines. One of mine was my singles and pairs driving champion and an advanced *** eventer.
Its no detriment at all and beneficial in terms of furthering training and enabling non weight bearing exercise to aid muscle development.
Is it possible to “do it yourself”?
No!
If you don’t know how to do it, then how can you train the horse. You may well get some folks tell you how they managed, but I’m of the strong view that they may well have been lucky and personally I’ve never seen one done well.
I think you’d be safer with a second person - if not a professional, at least someone who is familiar with driving or familiar with training horses in general. With a lot of the steps in training a driving horse you have a lot of equipment to deal with and might need hands at the horse’s head during the process to prevent an accident.
Recommendations?
OK, anyone in southern NJ or surrounding area?
riding and driving dressage
It affects riding very positively (we do both) but with one caveat.
We do not drive our mare anymore that I used to drive almost everyday (and have shown very successfully in cart). She is now in level 2/3 ridden dressage and we have worked like crazy to get her to bend and be less stiff. I am sure that all that driving was part of the reason -she just had no real bend -she is used to moving fairly straight either in the shafts or by the tongue, no lateral bend. She also (likes lots of driving horses) is all power in the front and we had to train her to get under herself and use her rear end.
I used to train our horses to drive before we trained them to ride. I have changed that a little. I now teach them to ground drive (and I mean take them out on walk-abouts, trails, etc), to the point where they are SO responsive, then I teach them to ride and then go back to driving. The problem is that the two horses I have started like this have so much more bend and are under themselves so much better, that I am hesitant to get them driving. One of them is the daughter of the horse I wrote about above, so we can really see the difference when we are riding her (she is in training level dressage). I will eventually train them to drive, as I love to drive.
I have had so many driven horses that I have broken to ride, they all tend to be a stiff.
Now, for the trail horse, english pleasure horse, etc, I don’t think if makes that much difference but if you are seriously into ridden dressage just be aware of this little issue (or at least one person’s perspective on it because I know many people will disagree with what I have just written). I just keep observing it though. I will say that I only drive Percherons on a regular basis. They come with the typical driving horse build, so that could also have something to do with my observations (they are more stiff, less under themselves as a breed -so, the difference is more pronounced).
Of course, it could be all my mind also (grin).
You can do a lot of ground work at home yourself. Up to the point of putting a horse into the cart (which you definitely want a professional here) you can get them used to the harness, desensitize them, ground drive, long line, etc. But get some driving lessons first!!! If you can find a dressage trainer who drives so much the better.
I have to disagree with CieloAzure on the bending issue. But I am not a serious dressage rider. Both of my horses have come to use their back ends better from driving than riding and bending has never been an issue.
I presently have a gal who has ridden dressage to 4th level and higher and trained both horses and people to do so. I taught her to drive. She has so much more knowledge than I and once she got past the “I don;t have my leg” to cue the horse, she has taken my horses to high levels of dressage. One horse does not carry a rider by my choice but is doing wonderful and improving daily in his dressage. He had nice bend prior to her starting driving him. My horses are Arabians, so it may be a breed difference or perhaps correct use of the whip to tickle the horse to bend correctly.
So working girl, driving is lot like riding, you get lots of opiniions!!! You have to decide what works for you. :D:lol::yes:
Me too. My draft cross started bending and using her hind end much better after driving training. If you work with a driving trainer that does driven dressage or CDE, and understands dressage principles, it should only improve your horse undersaddle. My trainers driving horse that had a beautiful bend and very round, and working from the hind end through the back. This horse could do one tempis under harness, collected and extended gaits. Of course moves such as half pass and canter piroutte can’t really be done in harness. Something similar to a leg yield is common in driving though. I rode dressage when I started driving and was very excited to see so much in common with ridden and driven dressage. I love dressage! I am one of the odd ones that thinks the dressage portion is more fun than the marathon in an ADT or CDE!
Do get a trainer to work with though.
Good luck and I know you will have a blast. Driving is very fun and addicting!
[QUOTE=Cartfall;3291020]
I have to disagree with CieloAzure on the bending issue. But I am not a serious dressage rider. [/QUOTE] Me too and I am both ridden and driven dressage.
I have to say I agree with Cielo Azure. Way before I got into driving I ended up working for a BNT (dressage) who got 2 horses in from a BN driver although both horses were originally (imported) FEI dressage horses, they hadn’t had serious dressage (ridden) for awhile. You could tell, they not longer swung, tended to push off there front ends first and bending was mostly in the neck and not the body. Also seat aids were non existant. They changed quickly, and that BN driver now sends his horses to dressage trainers regularly.
Right now I am also training another driving horse in dressage. I think it is much easier to teach a horse self carriage and develope the “sitting” power on a horse undersaddle. I have a very hard time transfering it to driving, as I use my seat alot.
[QUOTE=Happy Feet;3291314]
Way before I got into driving I ended up working for a BNT (dressage) who got 2 horses in from a BN driver although both horses were originally (imported) FEI dressage horses, they hadn’t had serious dressage (ridden) for awhile. [/QUOTE] The requirements and demands are different and I personally wouldn’t expect a horse to meet the demands of one or the other without being routinely conditioned and schooled.
Right now I am also training another driving horse in dressage. I think it is much easier to teach a horse self carriage and develope the “sitting” power on a horse undersaddle. I have a very hard time transfering it to driving, as I use my seat alot.
I’d agree that what you can do under saddle is quite different to what you can do from a carriage behind the horse. A horse won’t have the same outline with a rider rather than a carriage. Personally speaking I do most of the training for paces and developing outline under saddle when I’ve the benefit of seat and leg and a double bridle. Makes it MUCH easier.
However Cielo posted very specifically that his/her (sorry don’t know which) experience was that driving horses were stiff and lacked bend. That is most definitely not my experience and hence I disagree.
The OP specifically asked if driving made the riding experience worse and again, that is most definitely not my experience.
Ours both ride and drive, and have no problem with bend. I am not a Dressage rider, but DO expect good response from leg and seat aids. Bend is CERTAINLY required in my riding needs. A good Western horse needs to be as flexible, doing all those responses, while balanced by himself. My horse should not care what saddle he wears, response should be immediate, correct, to any of my aids when ridden. We use bend for barrels, turns in poles, along with turns for a Hunter course, ridden dressage test in 4-H. Leg give, sidepass, is needed for Trail class, ridden tests, rail classes in a group.
Knowing HOW to do the requests is part of being a well-broke horse, responsive to rider, jobs required of him.
What we have noticed with Driving, is horse NEEDS enough shaft room to be able to turn, GET THE BEND, to do it correctly. Older carriages, the Pleasure wood carts with long shafts often don’t allow the bend in body. We did a horse show last week using one of the antiques. Shafts had no shaping, bend room. Funny we had never noticed this before, but horse could not bend in shafts, and placed accordingly, low. Horse CAN bend in other vehicles, under saddle, so not his fault.
Husband watches a lot of Dressage horses go, high levels under skilled riders. He expects the same body carriage from our horses, on long lines, going single or in Multiples, when Driven. Self carriage of body is only achieved by driving correctly from behind.
I feel very confident that a more skilled rider could easily get more advanced movements from our horses, with the training they have now. Horses would not be stiff.
This same horse ALWAYS drives from behind, has great overreach, flexibility of body. He came broke to ride Western, pulled logs in the forest. We taught him long-lining, more flexibility in handling his body, lightened up the bit contact responses as we got him going on the vehicles. Actually took him to reining school, learned a GREAT deal there. His flexibility made some of the manuevers easier for him than typical Western bred horses. He is never behind the bit, takes contact well, but not hanging on you.
So I would look elsewhere for the Dressage stiffness problems in a horse, training steps, driving equipment used, not point at the Driving itself as the problem. Maybe we ask differently here, set him up in another way, out on the long lines.
Driven Dressage horses can be doing the fake headset, same as the ridden ones. Not actually coming thru from behind, to allow the front end to be truly correct, just a vertical headset. Drivers can be doing things wrongly, not able to see the problem, like riders. Even upper level Drivers.
There is a BUNCH of stuff coming along as Driven Dressage expectations keep being raised. Some great Dressage articles by Hardy Zantke in the Carriage Driving World and Whip. How to build towards the more skilled Dressage horse, using the present tests to work upward. Again, higher expectations from the Judges, drivers themselves. I think the more recent articles do a better teaching job than the original books, like Heinke Bean’s. I really didn’t care for that book, though many others do.
“The requirements and demands are different and I personally wouldn’t expect a horse to meet the demands of one or the other without being routinely conditioned and schooled.”
Thomas, you are very correct. Maybe the point is if you intend to keep doing both disciplines, do them both regularly!
I do have to elaborate though, The horse did feel different just because it had been driven not ridden. Of course the better the driver the better the horse is going to feel. Because there is no lateral work in driving (maybe some slight leg yielding and shoulder fore) most horses get rather stiff laterally. Maybe mostly because of the pure fact you can’t really do it while put to a carriage.
It does seem that the best driving horses (CDE - not sure about Pleasure) were upper level dressage horses that took to driving
Anyway just my 2 cents!
Good luck OP, have fun and be safe!
Edited to add: On point of lateral stiffness, I am sure there are ways (like long lining) that can be used in driving training to keep/improve/maintain that lateral suppleness. I don’t hear many people in my area doing long lining, but since my ponies don’t ride, I long lined them alot to get bend, and work on lateral suppleness. It probably took twice as long as if I were ridding but it was a great alternative. Maybe it just has to be a priority in ones daily training.
There are many dressage (yes I am admitting it!) that are also laterally stiff too…
S. NJ Recommendations
OK, anyone in southern NJ or surrounding area?
Hey… you should contact either of the well known driving clubs in your area for some names. They all have a list of resources. Recommendations are freely given but these are folks who hold themselves out as qualified.
Clubs in your area:
*My Lady’s Manor Driving Club (members all over the mid-Atlantic)
*Delmarva Driving Club (members all over the mid-Atlantic area, most in Delaware)
*Delaware Valley Horse Association (membership is closer to Buck County area of PA I believe)
*Brandywine Driving Association.
Good Luck!
Thanks for the info on the local clubs!
[QUOTE=Happy Feet;3291314]
I ended up working for a BNT (dressage) who got 2 horses in from a BN driver [/QUOTE]
Explain BNT and BN please.
[QUOTE=Cartfall;3296586]
Explain BNT and BN please.[/QUOTE]
BNT is Big Name Trainer last I heard. BN was used with Driver so would be Big Name Driver. Folks who are well known in their equine circles, areas of expertise, famous maybe!
I didn’t use BNT for the driver only because he doesn’t teach much (I don’t think he did at all back when I rode the horses)
Also the only reason I made mention of it was so people knew they weren’t a new to driver or a really bad example of driving…
