Drug used>> Epogen/Procrit?? Lasix etc..

[Sundown_Farm]

Okay, so we just bought an x-racer today… He was on a drug when he was around 2 yo, that caused his kidneys to stop doing what they were supposed to do (by synthetically doing it for them)… Needless to say, his kidneys took a beating, but they are still fine… BUT for education purposes, I would really like to know what this is…

What is Epogen?? (I have this answer now)

I dont remember exactly what she said, but I could find out tomorrow…

What drugs are race horses given (besides steriods) that affect the kidneys??

Is it just Lasixs that do this?? I know he was on the “Furosemide” list as a 2 yo.

Thanks in advance!

[Acertainsmile]

I believe the drug your referring to would be Epogen…very nasty and highly illegal.

http://www.thoroughbredtimes.com/horse-health/2000/July/08/Deadly-performance-enhancer.aspx

[Barnfairy]

Mmm. Epogen = Bad.

You may find this article from the Thoroughbred Times helpful: Veterinary Spotlight on kidneys

Causes of kidney damage

• Medications such as sulfa drugs or nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drugs given to combat colic or infection.

There’s actually a great article in the Horse that discusses epogen, but you need to register (it’s free) to read it: Blood Builders

[Sundown_Farm]

yup yup yup, thats it!

Anyone have any experience with their horses and this drug? It says right there that the drug makes the body over produce red blood cells, which makes the blood thicken, which then leads to the horse becoming a “bleeder”…

which is why he was put on the “Furosemide” list (lasix)… I mean, all of this happened at 2yo!!

Plus it says they are VERY expensive… Do I mention it to the trainer/owner and ask questions, or act like I know nothing? Know nothing sounds smart to me!

CRAZY STUFF

[Acertainsmile]

Most horses will race on Lasix, it’s just the way it is…so EPO (Epogen) wouldnt necessarily be the reason he was given Lasix…

We claimed a horse from a well known trainer, and after watching this horse turn into a different animal during the following two weeks, we suspected he had been given EPO… lack of appetite, dull coat, lethargic, etc.

We gave his some blood building meds, and some time off, and he bounced back, winning a few races for us before he was claimed again… He had a good career after he left us.

As far as mentioning anything, I would keep my mouth shut as far as talking the trainer, they will just deny it, and probably act highly offended.

Good luck with your new horse!

[Sundown_Farm]

How long after they are given EPO do those syptoms show up/get better?

He has not raced in over 6 months or so… Would he have been given drugs since? They did want to put him back on the track… But I didnt think that was anytime soon…

This trainer we got him from is HUGE on doing bloodwork (every 45 days) and gives TONS of electrolytes (does this regimin fit with giving EPO?)…

Basically, I do not want to get other horses from him if he is the culprit, but we are good friends with his parents (*who also race and get horses from, and they sent us to him)…

HIS vet is the one who told us that the horse had been given EPO, so I wouldnt think that she would be that honest if he was the one who gave it?!

OKAY, now that he is off the track, never going back, and will be a show horse the rest of his life, what long term effects could this have on his life?

How long after the medication has stopped being given will he start to have----- lack of appetite, dull coat, lethargic, etc.?

The vet said that his kidney issues were VERY mild, and he is completely fine… But there were “crystals” in his urine. One kidney is slightly larger than the other, and the smaller one has sclerosis…

Ideas?

[Cherry]

Epogen is the same thing as Procrit. Procrit was marketed in the U.S. and Epogen in Europe. The company had to pull it off the market when they discovered it turned the blood to sludge… :eek:

I don’t think at this late date you can assume anything–what did your vet say??? Steroids can stay in the system for a long time. It’s not unusual to to get a horse off the track and a few months later it drops weight, haircoat loses its sheen and the horse just generally looks bad, it will eventually pick up–I’ve heard it called “Letdown Syndrome”.

gives TONS of electrolytes (does this regimin fit with giving EPO?)…

I would think this is to replenish electrolytes lost after giving Salix (formerly known as “Lasix”–a rose by any other name)… :uhoh:

HIS vet is the one who told us that the horse had been given EPO, so I wouldnt think that she would be that honest if he was the one who gave it?!

Did you ask her how she knows this??? If she knows firsthand then she may be violating a client’s right to privacy, and if she’s repeating what she heard then she’s a gossip… :eek:

OKAY, now that he is off the track, never going back, and will be a show horse the rest of his life, what long term effects could this have on his life?

Did you ask your vet??? He/she is the one who examined the horse and is better able to tell you the prognosis… What did the bloodwork look like??? I would think that would be a pretty good prognosticator… :yes: Didn’t your vet explain any of this to you??? Did you ask??? When I have a vet examine a horse I ask him questions until his eyes glaze over!!! :winkgrin: :lol: I believe in getting my money’s worth! :yes:

we suspected he had been given EPO… lack of appetite, dull coat, lethargic, etc.

Acertainsmile, sounds more like a classic case of ulcers…

[DickHertz]

I train very close to a trainer who wins at 30% with 60 head.

They all run great when they enter the barn then 90 days later they are for sale for $200. They’ll run for allowance and win by 8 then be in for $4,000 in 10 days and never run good again. This is the real life effects of epogen…gets the trainer more horses and they make a lot of money. Horse racing doesn’t really seem concerned with EPO, however, because the test is expensive and EPO properties can remain in the blood for months or years. EPO could ruin horse racing.

[Sundown_Farm]

We literally picked up the horse yesterday… The horse was evaluated the day before we picked him up by the OWNER/TRAINERs vet…

The vet said all of the above info… It is not my vet, and I have not paid for the evaluation.

I ask the questions because you guys are obviously more knowledgeable about this information, and may have past experiences!

This vet (that evaluated the horse) said that he needs NO treatment, and will have NO long term issues… BUT, it is not my vet, and I have never seen this drug before… SO, I would like to know what you guys thought on the subject!

[gholem]

[QUOTE=DickHertz;3669846]
EPO properties can remain in the blood for months or years. EPO could ruin horse racing.[/QUOTE]

While I don’t know what the case is for horses, humans have their entire red blood cell population turn over every ~120 days. In humans, EPO that is taken more than 30 days before a race has very little, if any, impact on performance.

Is EPO just as much a problem for horse racing as it is for cycling, long distance running and cross country skiing? Yes. I also wouldn’t be surprised if it was being used in upper level eventing. Tests have been developed to detect its presence in humans, I don’t know if they would work for horses or how much they cost.

There is also a benchmark test that was used in cycling before a more direct test was found. It simply measured the hematocrit levels of the blood (basically the percentage of the blood that is red blood cells) anything above a predefined threshold (higher than any level found in an undoped athlete) was automatically considered doping.

Hopefully racing and eventing authorities take the necessary steps to discourage its use before its usage becomes widespread.

[gholem]

@Cherry;3669711

Epogen is the same thing as Procrit. Procrit was marketed in the U.S. and Epogen in Europe. The company had to pull it off the market when they discovered it turned the blood to sludge… :eek:

I think they knew it did this…that is the whole point of taking the drug - increasing your red blood cell count.

The problem is that when taken by already healthy individuals engaging in endurance training it boosts it so much, your heart can’t pump your blood around anymore and you die. It has happened to quite a few cyclists and x-country skiers, maybe some distance runners although I can’t think of any of them off the top of my head.

Anyway, it is still a prescribe-able drug for its intended uses - mainly anemia from a variety of causes.

[Acertainsmile]

Cherry, I’ve seen plenty of ulcer cases, and bad ones at that… this was beyond a horse with ulcers…plus the trainer had a “reputation”…

[Blinkers_On]

[QUOTE=Sundown Farm;3669979]
We literally picked up the horse yesterday… The horse was evaluated the day before we picked him up by the OWNER/TRAINERs vet…

The vet said all of the above info… It is not my vet, and I have not paid for the evaluation.

I ask the questions because you guys are obviously more knowledgeable about this information, and may have past experiences!

This vet (that evaluated the horse) said that he needs NO treatment, and will have NO long term issues… BUT, it is not my vet, and I have never seen this drug before… SO, I would like to know what you guys thought on the subject![/QUOTE]

Trainer and vet would be stupid to be laying claim to the use of epogen.
We give electrolytes after shipping, before and after racing, in their supper, after training. They sweat, treated with lasix…The use of electrolytes is far from a “clue” as to how the horse was treated to run.
Horses that have been given EPO will run through the bridle, break and re break again and be so impressive for several starts and then fall off dramatically. I once did work for a guy who did this. He would step horses up like crazy and they would run like super stars and then like Dick says, be running for $4000 maybe effectively shortly thereafter. They literally start to look “cooked.” Drawn up and dull, don’t perform. It’s a very nasty medication. It is banned from use and thanks to better testing, non competetive testing, more sensitive testing. Laying claim to the use of EPO would have huge ramifications for trainer or vet or both.

[Sing_Mia_Song]

Did the vet infer that the Epo was what he got as a two-year-old that affected his kidneys? It could have been something as innocent as Gentacin or Amikacin. Those are drugs that you tend to not want to use in a young animal, but if they’ve got an infection that’s only sensitive to that class of drug, you have to take your chances.

I bought a filly off the track who was a suspected Epo. The trainer I bought her from had claimed her in her first start after a spectacular win. He ran her back once and she was distanced, started backing off her feed tub and generally looking very poor. He took her home and kicked her out for a year, and he said he seriously thought she was going to die. She lost a ton of weight, just stood there shaking (and wasn’t cold), and looked like crap. Gradually, she came out of it and did come back to the track, but she was never able to duplicate her previous form.

Happily, she did go on to be a quite nice hunter, with no residual effects beyond the very severe letdown.