Drugging: Will the Horse I Try at Seller's Stable Be the Same Horse When I Get Him Home?

[phippsie62]

We’re researching toward buying a horse for my adult, fairly savvy daughter, but a couple recent situations concern me:

1. Our trainer takes clients on horse-shopping trips to Canada. Typically these are two-three day trips and frequently result in at least one purchase. Recently a client bought a horse, got it home, and found it consistently much hotter under saddle than it had seemed when she tried it. Seller was contacted and explained that she injects her horses, does it all the time–with what, I couldn’t say. Seller was very forthcoming with the information, as if it were no big deal.

2. At my home barn, a barn-mate whose horse was for sale rode him three times during the day in advance of prospective buyers coming to try the horse that evening, and then aced him before the trial ride. She didn’t advise the buyers of either preparation, but I like to think she would have been honest if asked. I like to think so, but I can’t say for sure.

As prospective buyers in the future, we now know to ask what preparation the horse has received prior to a trial ride–but of course asking doesn’t guarantee an honest answer. Would it help to include a blood test in the PPE–that is, if a blood test would reveal the presence of a drug in the horse’s system?

Is there any way a buyer can assure herself that the horse she tried has not been drugged?

[RugBug]

I sure hope your trainer has nothing to do with either of these people anymore. Ridiculous. If my trainer continued to buy from the seller in #1, I’d be finding a new trainer. If Seller #2 is a client of trainer’s and trainer condones the extreme prep and druggins, I’d also be looking for a new trainer. Stuff like that makes me crazy angry.

If you want to protect yourself from these types of shenanigans, consider if you trust your trainer’s judgement or not. Absolutely pull blood and have it tested. Ride any horse as much as possible.

That said, it’s important to remember that horses change with different riders and in different barns. Horsekeeping differences make a HUGE difference in how a horse behaves. A strong rider can keep a spooky horse confident, even through some rides from a weaker rider…whereas if the weaker rider becomes the primary rider, the spooky horse can quickly lose confidence and become a handful.

[hb]

There really isn’t any way to be 100% certain.

My Trainer advises being present at the pre-purchase, determine if the horse has the same demeanor they had when you tried it, and pull blood at the pre-purchase. Have the vet hold the blood sample, and if the horse changes once you get it home then test. She advises having something in the sales contract voiding the sale if the horse tests positive within a certain length of time post-sale. She has had at least one seller back out of the sale when they were asked to include that in the sales contract.

However, there are a lot of calming drugs in use so you’d have to have an idea what to test for, there are substances that are difficult to test, and there are long-acting drugs that could stay in effect until several weeks post sale.

There are also horses that do well in one program and take a long time to settle into a new program.

There are certain barns and sellers that my trainer is wary of. If you are using your trainer as an agent, she should know of some local sellers that are more trustworthy than others. If she is often taking clients on shopping trips, she should be getting to know the sellers in that location and who is more likely to be drugging. However, if she knows of your barn-mates actions while selling the horse and does not object, your trainer may not be one of the honest ones…

When I was shopping a few years back there were two horses from a local breeder that I wanted to try. One was based at home with the breeder, one was at a trainer’s barn a couple of miles down the road. My trainer told me that if I was interested in the horse that was at the trainer’s barn, I should arrange a second trial ride to see if the horse was the same as in the first ride, and have the vet check immediately after and pull blood. I asked a couple of friends in the area and they both had stories about horses changing personalities after being sold out of that trainer’s barn. The breeder was a very honest person but had known that trainer since she was a young girl, so had a bit of a blind spot to the trainer’s business practices. So, even if the seller is honest their trainer may not be.

It’s tough.

[fordtraktor]

You can’t know. Pull blood during the vet test. Otherwise, it can be that they simply have a different program and very possibly haven’t done anything wrong.

i keep my horses out 24/7 and am sure two would be hotter if kept in most of the time! That said I have no secrets about what I do here. If someone else changes the program I can’t guarantee results.

[mrs_beasley]

Ideally, a pre-purchase should be done by YOUR vet or a vet not affiliated with the seller. When any of my sale horses get to a point of being vetted, I always tell the buyer which vet I use so that they can find a neutral party for the PPE if they prefer. If they wish to get the vet records and health history of the horse from my vet, they are welcome to. ALWAYS do a drug screen, no matter if it is a $5,000 horse or a $500,000 horse. This is not a 100% guarentee of the horse being clean, but it does help to weed out the ones needing pharmaceutical support. Make sure your test ride is close to the day of the blood draw, so that whatever might be present in the system while under tack is still at a testable level. If something is floating around in there, knowing about can be a deal breaker (and probably SHOULD be, imho).

As a trainer, I can tell you that I do not recommend clients purchasing horses that they cannot take on a brief trial, no matter how horse savvy they are. This is more difficult when considering horses abroad or far from home, but it is important to see how the horse behaves “away from home”, if only for a day or two; if not drugged, perhaps it gets discreetly lunged for an extended period to make them quiet before a trial, like MANY show hunters these days endure before going into the show ring. Knowing what they are like right out of the stall is quite important.

[chunky_munky]

If you are truly interested in a horse you try and are concerned about the seller, have a vet pull blood the day you ride it (or within 24 hours)

[snaffle635]

Agree with the others - have the vet pull blood. Try to be there for the PPE.

In some situations, you don’t have a lot of time or information about a horse to make a purchase decision. I know people who buy horses from Europe off 4 minutes of video tape. Or a 1-day visit and test-ride. That’s a lot of risk to assume. Some people are comfortable with that.

Some people like to reduce the amount of risk by seeing the horse multiple times in multiple environments. If this is more your style and you’re concerned that the horse you buy for your daughter is the ‘same’ as the one you try, then don’t let yourself be pushed into making a quick decision.

One of my friends doesn’t buy unless she’s seen the horse at home AND at a horse show. She’s more cautious.

Another friend just bought a 5-year old from Europe off 4 minutes of video tape. The horse has turned out to be a dream.

I bought my mare off video from Denmark. Video and about 50 emails between me and the seller. And when I say video, I had video of everything - the horse being lunged, the horse jumping indoors, doing a dressage test, galloping cross country, being ridden bareback, getting on the trailer, the entire PPE, etc. My seller was a saint! (Actually she was just as worried about me as a buyer - I sent HER video of me riding, my other horses, and where the horse would live.

Yes, some sellers go to great lengths to ‘prepare’ the horse for sale. If you don’t know the seller well and are concerned, then that sales situation probably isn’t for you.

[SuzieQNutter]

No the horse is not going to be the same. It will also not be the same the next week or the next month. It is a horse.

If you want something that is the same, it is called a motor bike.

[Midge]

If at all possible, try to ride the horse again the before the PPE. Do pull blood.

[GrayMare]

There is no guarantee. But, here are some things to help.

First, many trainers are very helpful because they have connections to reputable sellers that represent horses honestly and have a history of fair sales/satisfied customers in order to have repeat business. If shopping with someone new, your trainer might be able to ask around through their connections about a sellers reputation, or simply be savvy enough to help recognize a horse that might have been inappropriately prepared.

Next, when looking at horses, get all the information you can ahead of time. Competition videos or videos taken when the horse was schooling away from home are helpful, because those are more stressful situations for horses. Of course, the horse could have been drugged for those situations as well. Ask a lot of questions about the horse’s program: How often does the horse get ridden? By what level rider? Does the horse need a lot of professional training rides to stay tuned up? Has the horse ever been ridden by a beginner? How does the horse react to new situations? Do they typically longe the horse before riding? How does the horse behave if it has had a week off or the weather is cold and windy? Ask about spookiness, what bit they use, etc. Make a list before you call and listen closely to what the seller says–no seller is going to come right out and say that the horse is crazy, but they might suggest that the horse is more appropriate for a more advanced rider or tends to be very forward or needs to be longed, etc.

When you go to see the horse, ask if it has already been ridden that day. Ask if it was given any medications or calming supplements. IME, if you have a good conversation with a seller and ask enough questions, you will get some honest information. Most sellers want the trial ride to go well and want to get the horse sold, but at the same time don’t want to sell a horse to an unsuitable situation.

If possible, come back and ride the horse a second time. Then, as others have said, if you are interested in the horse, don’t delay with your PPE and have blood drawn for testing.

Lastly, listen to your instinct. If something seems off to you, be ready to walk away. If things the seller says don’t add up, it’s better to potentially miss out on a good horse (there is always another one) than to be stuck with a horse that is unsuitable or has an issue.

Of course there is always risk when buying a horse, and you have to be comfortable with that to a certain degree. And as others have pointed out, horses are living creatures that can behave very differently in a different environment or program–and that is no one’s fault.

[Katona]

This is weird to me, because EC drug rules are much more strict in Canada than the USA. I’ve had several people sell horses to the US because, “they can give them xyz there to keep them happy/comfortable.”

I wonder if it was Depo? Still something that should have been disclosed, but not illegal in the USE[F] circuit. (yet)

[lmlacross]

OP, is the trainer you’re working with here the same one who is still jumping the 18 y.o. brain-fried mare and considering selling her as a broodmare prospect? Is this trainer also overseeing the sale of barnmate’s horse who is aced for showings?

Red flags for me.

[skydy]

@phippsie62

We’re researching toward buying a horse for my adult, fairly savvy daughter, but a couple recent situations concern me:

1. Our trainer takes clients on horse-shopping trips to Canada. Typically these are two-three day trips and frequently result in at least one purchase. Recently a client bought a horse, got it home, and found it consistently much hotter under saddle than it had seemed when she tried it. Seller was contacted and explained that she injects her horses, does it all the time–with what, I couldn’t say. Seller was very forthcoming with the information, as if it were no big deal.

2. At my home barn, a barn-mate whose horse was for sale rode him three times during the day in advance of prospective buyers coming to try the horse that evening, and then aced him before the trial ride. She didn’t advise the buyers of either preparation, but I like to think she would have been honest if asked. I like to think so, but I can’t say for sure.

As prospective buyers in the future, we now know to ask what preparation the horse has received prior to a trial ride–but of course asking doesn’t guarantee an honest answer. Would it help to include a blood test in the PPE–that is, if a blood test would reveal the presence of a drug in the horse’s system?

Is there any way a buyer can assure herself that the horse she tried has not been drugged?

Quote

[phippsie62]

Yes, Imlacross, this is indeed the same trainer with the 18 yo mare. But now she’s being advertised as “stepping down” from a h/j program and looking for the “right person” who would like to ride her on the flat. The ad doesn’t say that the mare requires a skilled and tactful rider, just the “right person.” I suppose suitability (or not) will become evident when the mare is tried. To her credit, the trainer has already turned away a prospective buyer, not because she couldn’t ride well enough but because she wasn’t confident that the person had adequate resources to keep the mare well housed, fed, vetted, etc. I don’t know that the trainer had any input in the decision of our barn mate to do all the pre-riding and acing.
As to the plan to sell the 18 yo mare as a broodmare, that must have been just a wild idea that didn’t get very far. Not only is the mare 18, but she has a club foot and a super-sensitive temperament, as described. Not a good candidate!

And in response to Katona, wouldn’t Canadian drug rules, like American ones, be enforced only at shows and not at the home barns of h/j horses?

Thanks to all for the good advice. I will print out this thread and keep for future reference.

[Daventry]

@Katona

This is weird to me, because EC drug rules are much more strict in Canada than the USA. I’ve had several people sell horses to the US because, “they can give them xyz there to keep them happy/comfortable.”

That wouldn’t stop someone from drugging their horse in the comfort of their own barn. EC drug rules only apply at EC shows, nowhere else.

[kcmel]

I pulled blood when I bought my horse, and I sure wish I had tested it! Although I didn’t think about adding a clause to the seller’s contract about the sell being voided if the test came up positive for anything incriminating. The seller was a little shady.

My horse’s reactivity, especially on the ground, changed a lot when I got him home. He is especially sensitive to strangers handling him, so I am sure he would have been very nervous around the vet during his PPE if he hadn’t been drugged. That being said, I love him to pieces and he is a fantastic horse to ride, even though it has taken a while to gain his confidence. So really it is only out of curiosity that I wonder what he was on during his PPE.

[kelsey97]

Before I ride the horse I’m trying I ask how it was prepped…body language says it all!

[541hunter]

I bought from a sales barn in Canada with a somewhat iffy reputation. I was nervous but the horse had a great show record with multiple trainers and had been leased by a trainer we knew. I pulled blood within 24 hours of trying him and tested it, and again during the PPE a week-ish later. I actually found something that hadn’t been disclosed (Previcox), which was more annoying than anything—I wouldn’t have cared if I’d known he was on Previcox.

Pulling blood doesn’t cover you from all methods of prep (lunging, riding, etc.) but it’s a start. I also do extensive show record searches, hunt for video and social media posts, and try to call around to former owners/leasers/anybody I trust who might have some connection with the horse. There’s a lot of info out there on most horses these days, if you have the patience to do some sifting through Google.

[Brutus614]

I avoided this issue by taking the horse on trial, at my barn. Not always possible for a variety of reasons, but something you might consider.

[Katona]

@Daventry

That wouldn’t stop someone from drugging their horse in the comfort of their own barn. EC drug rules only apply at EC shows, nowhere else.

Oh, I totally understand that. I was trying to guess at why the “trainer acted like it was no big deal.” I was trying honestly wondering what a trainer here would give a horse regularly knowing it was going to the USA rather than competing here.

I suppose I could be acting like an idiot assuming people were following any sort of rules. :lol: