DSLD in warmbloods and crosses

[beowulf]

[QUOTE=WildandWickedWarmbloods;8759642]
I never had the problem in any TBs I owned but I had friends with TBs who had problems with it.

WBs are crosses, so I would bet the problems would come from the TB lines used to create WBs.[/QUOTE]

there’s so many things that went in to make WBs that i doubt you can say that it came FROM tbs. TBs have been a closed studbook for hundreds of years and if it truly came from TBs I think it would pop up a lot more often than it does – it’s likely something that is congenital in all breeds… that being said, again, i deal almost entirely with TBs and have never had it with a TB - i have dealt with it in many warmbloods – warmbloods that did not have recent TB ancestry.

[mzm_farm]

Actually, it is this article that sparked my interest:
http://bmcvetres.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1746-6148-2-12

I was surprised to see the one Hano. mare with early onset and no family history of the disease.

Especially interesting the suggestion that it is a dominant trait, with one allele being enough to show symptoms.

Pretty exciting to see potential for testing for this disease, and a doable test.

Would be a great disease to eliminate!

Thank you for the information, please continue sharing!

[csaper58]

If it were dominant, only 1 allele needed, how could the mare not have a parent displaying the disease?

Isn’t gray color dominant, 1 allele needed? Isn’t 1 parent always gray?

[invinoveritas]

Yes, grey is dominant.
Don’t know what causes DSLD though.

[mzm_farm]

"csaper58

If it were dominant, only 1 allele needed, how could the mare not have a parent displaying the disease?"

One possibility is that since disease can manifest at virtually any age, the parents of the mare in question had not manifested it at the time, but may in the future. Another possibility is that there are modifiers to the gene - some combinations show sooner or more severe then others.

For example: dam of mare is 3yr at time of breeding, so 9yr at time 5yr old daughter presents with disease, same for stallion. In the article some animals did not manifest disease well into their teens or twenties.

I would be very surprised if chronic injuries to suspensories resulted in body wide ligament system failure.

It would be wonderful if a reliable test could help us eliminate this disease.

[sherian]

personally I think while there may be a genetic predisposistion to it, that it requires a combination of that and environmental factors - accident, lifestyle etc. I have known a tb, a dutch warmblood, arab, a quarterhorse and a mustang with the condition.

[csaper58]

[QUOTE=mzm farm;8761665]
"csaper58

If it were dominant, only 1 allele needed, how could the mare not have a parent displaying the disease?"

One possibility is that since disease can manifest at virtually any age, the parents of the mare in question had not manifested it at the time, but may in the future. Another possibility is that there are modifiers to the gene - some combinations show sooner or more severe then others.

For example: dam of mare is 3yr at time of breeding, so 9yr at time 5yr old daughter presents with disease, same for stallion. In the article some animals did not manifest disease well into their teens or twenties.

I would be very surprised if chronic injuries to suspensories resulted in body wide ligament system failure.

It would be wonderful if a reliable test could help us eliminate this disease.[/QUOTE]

Ahhh…

So carrying on with the comparison to ‘gray’.

A mare/stud may be ‘steel gray’ for a long time before turning ‘white’ in old age.

But a foal from that horse might fade more quickly and look ‘white’ by 4-5 yrs.

Is that it?

And of course diet, and lifestyle could play a role.

Hope they do isolate a gene and develop a test.

[jetsmom]

[QUOTE=MysticOakRanch;8758753]
I also have to question LadyJ’s comment -I’ve seen it (and know of people who have dealt with it) in several Warmbloods. I’ve also seen it in a couple of Arabians. I’ve never seen it in a Tbred (and I know a lot of people with Tbreds) - have seen lots of other leg/hoof issues in the Tbred, but interestingly, not yet this problem, although I’m sure it exists.

I wouldn’t say it is limited to a certain line of Warmbloods, so much as maybe a specific horse with specific conformation issues? That would be interesting research.

Lax (and long) pasterns are really common in WBs, and I don’t even know if THAT is an indicator of later DSLD? I would think that, combined with a straighter hind leg, might become an issue?[/QUOTE]

We have a tb at our barn with it.

[beowulf]

[QUOTE=MysticOakRanch;8758753]

Lax (and long) pasterns are really common in WBs, and I don’t even know if THAT is an indicator of later DSLD? I would think that, combined with a straighter hind leg, might become an issue?[/QUOTE]

i wonder if it is also being falsely diagnosed - as JB said upthread, there is a big difference between DSLD and suspensory ligament desmitis.

i do agree with you and wonder if the straighter hind end and lax pasterns contributes to some sort of issue.

[JB]

Gray - Gg horses almost always gray fairly slowly. GG horses almost always gray quickly, and some of them are almost fully gray on their first foal shed, and then a few rare ones are born all but “white” already.

DLSD is likely a co-dependent set of genetics, and maybe a major player gene where, if homozygous, cause the early onset. I don’t know the genetic diversity of the Paso, but if they are a relatively small pool of genetics, that would likely help explain why it’s more prevalent there, and shows up at such young ages.

i would LOVE if someone would do some halfway decent study on the post-legged halter QH’s and see what their fetlocks look like as they get into their teens.

I am SURE it’s misdiagnosed by owners who see late onset dropped fetlocks and they don’t understand it’s coming from conformationally straighter hocks. Or they call it DSLD when 1 fetlock drops because of a suspensory injury. They see a coon foot and call it DSLD.

[MysticOakRanch]

[QUOTE=jetsmom;8761886]
We have a tb at our barn with it.[/QUOTE]

I am not saying TBs don’t have it, just noting (in response to a prior comment by LadyJ that said it is extremely rare in WBs) that Warmbloods DO have it, and it isn’t limited to TBs and Pasos (well, I don’t know many Pasos, so I can’t comment on them).

[Lynnwood]

[QUOTE=mzm farm;8750382]
Please share your experiences - have you seen this ? Which bloodlines? Age of onset?

If anyone has had particular luck with a management/treatment plan would be interested in knowing the details.[/QUOTE]

Yes. Mare was never officially diagnosed but symptoms at an advanced age lead us to believe that she did in fact have DSLD.

Mare is WBXTB http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/in+a+pinch2. Had a very long fairly arduous hunter career that ended because of a splint bone fracture and a fall during surgical recovery injured her elbow. Was sound and non symptomatic other then being straight behind a little long in the pastern and fairly substantial hind wind puffs at the fetlock. Front legs were beautiful , tight and clean till the day she passed.

Had two foals who are both middle aged and thus far non symptomatic …one is straight behind although not as pronounced. That one is a gelding so no genetic concerns passing down.

Late aged (24) she was diagnosed with a heart murmur that was not existent one year and grade 4 the next. A long with the sudden murmur she went from being an easy keeper to fairly high maintenance and had started drooping significantly in her hind fetlocks. Over the year her condition escalated into some Neuro issues which we thought could be fall/age related but after a vet connected some dots we believe they were all late onset DSLD. In the end she had a significant probable grade 5 heart murmur , very lax behind , intermittent neuro issues , would tip over if asked to pick up a hind leg etc. Not EPM .

During the last year we upped her Vit E significantly , put her on high doses of msm , and omega 3’s to help with inflammation and Previcox . She did show some initial response and perhaps if the treatment would have been started earlier we could have gotten more time. Eventually her Neuro symptoms increased and we chose to help her pass.

[The_Blonde_amp_The_Bay]

My gorgeous five year old Hanoverian gelding was just diagnosed DSLD. He is by Furstenball out of Lady-Lou, a Londonderry mare and was imported from Germany last year.

He has had wind puffs in his right hind, has always dragged his hind toes and recently his hind legs have become ‘posts’ conformationally. His stifles catch so we attributed his weak hind end to weak stifles and treated this year. He was going well until recently so my vet came back out this week to assess, ultrasound found a lot of fluid and striation in his suspensory in particular as well as elsewhere in the leg. His left hind does not show any symptoms other than the post-ness.

My very excellent vet is fairly certain that DSLD is the culprit, due to his young age and lack of workload, it would be weird to be anything else. but I’m pretty sure I’m going to biopsy to confirm it. If there’s anyyyy chance it’s not degenerative, I want to know so I can throw everything at it. In any event, his career is over before it started but I’m hoping he can stay comfortable for a while yet.

Can anyone share their experience at the early stages? If it is DSLD, how long did onset take? I don’t know how long we have until the other limbs and tissue is affected. Wishing you all luck with this horrible affliction. I’m just utterly devastated for my gelding

[JB]

Definitely get a biopsy to confirm. I’m suspicious it’s not, given the other hind leg isn’t showing all the same issues. It’s nearly always bilateral - not sure I’ve even heard of a confirmed case that was unilateral. The reason being, it’s a systemic connective tissue disease, not simply a suspensory issue.

IIRC doing a biopsy on the nuchal ligament is a really good idea.

Do you have a conformation picture of him? I’m really interested in what he looks like, how he stands, etc. If you have a confo pic of his younger days (not that there are that many!) that would be really helpful too.

[Marex2]

Interesting. I have a dear friend who had a Top Filly (Han.) who developed DSLD in her RR only, as a long yearling. NOT due to any injury. Slowly developed. She was out of a Londontime mare. Not sure if it was biopsied, but nonetheless, confirmed by very reliable expert opinion. Owner was also a Veterinarian. Sad and horrible disease.
So sorry about your gelding, The Blonde & The Bay.

[ThirdCharm]

I have dealt with DSLD in two horses, one was a pinto racking horse, the other was a pony of indeterminate breeding (probably mostly QH). I have never seen it in a WB or TB, personally.

Jennifer

[beowulf]

[QUOTE=The Blonde & The Bay;8835771]
My gorgeous five year old Hanoverian gelding was just diagnosed DSLD. He is by Furstenball out of Lady-Lou, a Londonderry mare and was imported from Germany last year.

He has had wind puffs in his right hind, has always dragged his hind toes and recently his hind legs have become ‘posts’ conformationally. His stifles catch so we attributed his weak hind end to weak stifles and treated this year. He was going well until recently so my vet came back out this week to assess, ultrasound found a lot of fluid and striation in his suspensory in particular as well as elsewhere in the leg. His left hind does not show any symptoms other than the post-ness.

My very excellent vet is fairly certain that DSLD is the culprit, due to his young age and lack of workload, it would be weird to be anything else. but I’m pretty sure I’m going to biopsy to confirm it. If there’s anyyyy chance it’s not degenerative, I want to know so I can throw everything at it. In any event, his career is over before it started but I’m hoping he can stay comfortable for a while yet.

Can anyone share their experience at the early stages? If it is DSLD, how long did onset take? I don’t know how long we have until the other limbs and tissue is affected. Wishing you all luck with this horrible affliction. I’m just utterly devastated for my gelding :([/QUOTE]

So sorry to hear that and certainly hoping it is not DSLD. Out of curiosity, is there any way you could share a picture of the mare?

As much as I love Fuerstenball, he has very soft pasterns (that were apparent as a foal) and this was an issue with several breeders that I know that chose not to breed to him despite him being a wonderful stallion. After his first foal crop it seemed apparent his offspring did not ‘inherit’ soft pasterns, but I am wondering if it is something latent, as DSLD usually is. Meaning just because it didn’t show up in their first year doesn’t mean it wasn’t going to show up later… wonder how the oldest crop are doing?

[Angela_Freda]

[QUOTE=sherian;8761709]
personally I think while there may be a genetic predisposistion to it, that it requires a combination of that and environmental factors - accident, lifestyle etc. I have known a tb, a dutch warmblood, arab, a quarterhorse and a mustang with the condition.[/QUOTE]

I concur.
In my horses case he developed ulcers from a stressful situation and wham his fetlocks fell.
While there may be some inheritability to it, I have not heard any science or of any studies that seemed terribly well founded or reliable.
Most of what the DSLD group calls ‘genetics’ are anecdotal at best.

.

[JB]

There is absolutely a genetic predisposition to it. The fact that it’s bilateral, that it affects the whole body, that it runs in certain families and is more likely to be found in certain breeds, all prove that.

Pasos are a breed “notorious” for having it. But it’s not limited to that breed.

http://bmcvetres.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1746-6148-2-12

[beowulf]

[QUOTE=Angela Freda;8836000]
I concur.
In my horses case he developed ulcers from a stressful situation and wham his fetlocks fell.
While there may be some inheritability to it, I have not heard any science or of any studies that seemed terribly well founded or reliable.
Most of what the DSLD group calls ‘genetics’ are anecdotal at best.

.[/QUOTE]
DSLD is definitely genetic. I think the when it happens might possibly be environmental/circumstantial, but you are either born with the predilection for it or you’re not.