Dummy Foal Prognosis

[wikkid]

Hello everyone! My first post on the site, desperately looking for some feedback from people who have gone through the dummy foal saga! I will give the full (sorry for length) situation - would appreciate your insights!

On Saturday 19 November at lunchtime, my warmblood mare gave birth to a filly. Many things went wrong that day. The mare had a red bag birth, the vet was already on another call and the stable manager had to cut the bag. The foal was born a while later. The mare suffered a prolapsed uterus and nearly died. Luckily, the stable manager and help were fantastic and nothing ruptured and the vet was later able to reinsert the uterus and today (27 Nov), the mare is 100% fine. Later we were to find out that it was at this time that the foal suffered some oxygen deprivation.

The foal was born premature at 315 days, and had collapsed fetlocks/pasterns (which is not unusual in preemies). because of this (or so we thought) the foal was unable to stand properly and kept losing her balance. She couldnt suckle as a result. Vet came out and between replacement colostrum and milking the mare, they managed to bottle feed the foal that day and through the night. However the following morning the foal was not right and she was fairly floppy - our vet diagnosed dummy foal syndrome and recommended specialist treatment. Her and the mare were driven at lunch to the specialist hospital 6 hours away and foal was put on drips etc as soon as they arrived. The foal also lost the suckle reflex at this time and a nasal tube was put in.

Foal has now been at the hospital for 7 days and is still being tube fed. She is now able to stand on her own but still is being fed by tube. Only today has she started to show a slight suckle reflex, but almost non existent. She gets full meal though via tube but is still lying down a lot and vets are now doing physio to try help with muscle exercise. They say she seems tired lots. Her organs are fine, and she is passing faeces and urine ok. Apparently she is showing SLIGHT improvement signs in her alertness and activity but she is still a long way from “normal”, however she does seem to be “with it” ie she nickers at mom, responds to movement etc.

So we are now at day 7 post start of treatment (and day 8 from birth). Very slow progress, but no backward sliding.

I guess my question is has anyone else had a dummy foal that has taken a long time to come back to normal? I dont mind keeping her in the hospital if this is a slow and steady wins the race situation, however if it is futile, I really know Im just setting myself up for huge heartache if this is, in fact, going nowhere… At what point do you say “enough”?

Would really love to hear from any of you…

Thanks

[WildandWickedWarmblo]

Are you willing to keep this foal forever, however long she lives?
If not, please have her put down. Her life may never be normal and if you give her away or sell her she won’t have a good ending.

[wikkid]

Its the reason why Ive put the post up - the vet says we shouldnt be at the “giving up point” yet. I want to know what other people have experienced in a similar situation.

To answer your question, yes. I would. Im also able to make a hard call if I need to to have her put down if this ends up being the kindest route. But since this is the first time Ive been through this, Im seeking more information before making any decisions. There isnt a lot of information out there that is specific to the prognosis of dummy foals that have lost the suckle reflex. That is why Im hoping that someone on the forums may have experience that they could share. Internet refers to 80-90% success rate within 5 days - 2 weeks but it doesnt give a very accurate timeline of this along the way…

[ElementFarm]

We went through something very similar this spring. Mare foaled red bag at day 318. Filly was dummy (though had a good suck reflex), and extremely lax and under-developed. They went to the ICU at the State University within a few hours. Filly was on feeding tube and oxygen and catheter for 24+ hrs, and had to be helped up and held up to nurse for several days. Progress was back and forth by the hour and day and it was very scary and stressful (and extremely expensive). The State clinic did an excellent job, and the filly was well enough to come home at about 2 weeks. There were some followup scares, but now, at 7+ months she’s absolutely healthy.

I know there are tragic endings as often as there are happy endings. So HUGE jingles to you from Element Farm.

Here she is Day 0

Here she is at her inspection in mid Aug

[wikkid]

Thank you! That is very helpful. My gut says to keep going for as long as there is progress - she is such a little fighter. Not being a vet though, I just keep trying to look at it logically.

Also, the vet started her on DMSO about 36 hours ago and this seems to have been what has triggered the start of being more alert (ears now pricking up etc).

I guess Im just scared to consider getting my hopes up…

Edited to add - your foal looks awesome - this is my secret dream at the moment…

[oldernewbie]

Google “Madigan foal squeeze” and see if your vets will give it a try. Many articles recently about this approach and it seems like it might help your baby. Good luck!

[wikkid]

Thanks ON, unfortunately that seems to only really work with the very young foals (up to 3 days) and also those who are in a more coma-esque state. My foal was alert and suckling on bottle, and then “crashed”, at which point she lost the suckle reflex. Just today the vet said there is very slight suckle reflex coming back but a long way from being at the point where the tube could be removed.

Oh I so badly want the foal to be ok, but I know these things arent always that simple…

[tuckawayfarm]

We have used the Madigan foal squeeze very successfully on a foal about the same age as yours who was doing well initially and then seemed to be floundering. There is really no downside to trying it. We weren’t hopeful given the time frame, but the results were excellent.

Several years ago, prior to the foal squeeze, I had a red bag delivery. The foal suffered oxygen deprivation and began seizing on his second day. He was given DMSO. He is showing on the AA circuit today.

There are many stories of successful recoveries and heartbreaks when it comes to treating foals. As long as I’m seeing improvement and can afford to treat, I have given mine a chance.

Good luck with your filly!

[MysticOakRanch]

I have a friend who had “this” foal - dummy foal, very lax in pasterns. Four 1/2 years later, he’s perfectly normal, going under saddle, nice hunter prospect. The vet hospital told her with dummy foals - they either make it or they don’t, there isn’t a whole lot in between. I don’t know how true that is, but hers made it with no lasting issues:)

[gumtree]

As much as anything IME it depends on how much money are you able and or willing to spend. I breed, raise and work with TBs for a living, or at least I try and make a living.

There are many rewards there are many heartbreaks. But the worst part of the job, the worst part of looking after horses period is the fact we have to as I call it, “play god”. Sometimes the decision is obvious but for me is never easy. Other times the prognoses for a successful recovery is high if the horse is sent to a clinic and a LOT money is spent.

Be it on the business end or the hobby end one should still weigh the financial aspect. I know people and have read about people who have put themselves into extreme financial difficulty thinking with their heart.

For me it is much easier with a foal because I have not developed the same emotional attachment as with older horses. The majority of horse owners have never and will never bred and raise their own horse/s. We all develop an emotional bond with a horse regardless at what age it came into our lives.

When I went into the hands on breeding side of things I found that horses I have brought into the world, raise and taught them just everything they know it is a different type of bonding. I have made some very poor financial decisions because of this.

For those that are in the fortunate position to be able to throw as much money as it takes, IMO it is still a tough “ethical” choice. Foal neonatal can cost $8-10,000+ in the first couple of weeks. If not a lot more. With no guarantees that it wouldn’t end up being nothing more than a pasture pet for the rest of it life. Which maybe fine for most hobby breeders.

But if a person has that kind of money to basically “throw away”. Wouldn’t it better serve the greater good to give it to a needy charity. Horse, animal recuse? I pass no judgement on someone either way. I do feel for me it is an “ethical” judgment call.

There are plenty of compromised foal that ended with a happy ending. But IME a lot more that didn’t. We don’t usually hear about all of those. People generally don’t want to think about it.

I had one successful red bag foal with none of the other complications this one had. The statics are against most red bag foals and my partners wanted to put it down. I checked it at the clinic a few days later. It was much stronger and active than others I have dealt with. Made the decision to spend the money and it worked out well. But they mare and foal were only in the clinic about a week or so.

A couple of others the decision was also easy. They were not very viable and it was going to take a boat load of money to see how things would end up. Cut our loses, get the mare ready to be bred for the next season.

If this had been me based on what has been written I most likely would have put it down after a week if that long. But I am in the TB business, a cheap stud fee for me is around $5,000. Payable when the foal stands and nurses, in general, healthy for around a week. It the breeder decides to take the chance and save what maybe a unusable and or unmarketable foal/yearling they owe the stud fee.

OP, I share your anguish. A red bag and a prolapsed uterus is IMO and experience the worst case foaling scenario. Something I wish on no breeder. Especially the latter. Had a client mare prolapse shortly after being turned out. It is extremely visual especially when more is involved than just the uterus. I knew what was happening and there was very little we could do. We are located very close (for a reason) to the New Bolton Center. They know if I call and say I need you now they are in their truck before hanging up the phone.

Two trucks, two surgeons and a team were here within 15 miniatures or so. We lost the mare but they got the foal out. The mare was in extreme discomfort slowly dying. Thank god we are close and have excellent vets in our area. If I didn’t I would keep a bottle of the “juice” on hand. The foal was compromised as expected and the client made the decision a few days later have it put down. Later that year the mare’s 3 year old won several VERY important TB races. The client accused us of “killing” the mare. We only had her for around 2 months.

That’s the long of it, the short. No one here can say what is the best thing to do and or what to expect in the long run. Either way IMO if it is going to cost a boat load of money to find out. That kind of money can buy a really nice foal and or mare.

[JJ_sLuckyTrain]

So sorry to hear about the difficulties facing your foal.

If the main problems she is facing are primarily related to being a dummy, and she just needs basic nursing care, I would absolutely keep going with her is the costs are not too high for you.

When I would consider calling it quits would be if she was also battling complications of sepsis, with often go hand in hand with neonatal maladjustment syndrome. This would include diarrhea, pneumonia, septic joints… The presence of these complications make survival (especially survival into a useful horse) less likely.

Not to minimize what she is going through, but if she is just short a few brain cells, horses really do ok with that. Makes you wonder!

I also agree that it won’t hurt to try the Madigan squeeze technique.

I am a veterinarian and though I do not specialize in this sort of care, I have always loved working in the NICU.

[JJ_sLuckyTrain]

Should have added – How are her hocks and carpus’ looking on radiographs? Incomplete ossification may be a problem given how early she was. That would be another important factor to consider. If those are looking ok, I would be more in favor of continuing treatment.

[BeeHoney]

IMO, what I really want to know when I have a sick foal are what are the chances of the foal recovering to the point where they can have a productive career. As far as dummy foal syndrome, I’ve had dummies (where that was the only problem) turn out great. One of my favorite show horses was a dummy as a foal, you never would have known. I only knew because I was there when he was sick and I well remember the hopeless feeling at the time. I’ve seen other dummy foals turn out completely normal as well. JJ is a vet and knows more than me but I can confirm from a breeder’s perspective that his/her statement about nursing care is correct. Your filly’s situation is complicated by being premature, and not being a vet I can’t comment on how both issues might together affect her prognosis. I can tell you that the lax joints don’t worry me.

At this point, though, having already spent 7 days in the hospital, and now nickering at her dam, standing on her own, it sounds to me like she is over the worst. If you haven’t put her down yet, I wouldn’t put her down now! Of course, something terrible can always be around the bend where foals are concerned (diarrhea, joint ill, sepsis, pneumonia, accident) but that’s true for any foal.

If expenses are out of hand or you have other reasons factoring into your decision, I would not judge you for your decision, but at this point I don’t see the point of euthanizing. There are times as a breeder when it’s hard to see past the sick foal in front of you, but if you can afford to, this might be a time to have a little faith.

If things go south with issues with other organ systems, infection, or anything that compromises future soundness, then I’d think differently.

[wikkid]

[QUOTE=tuckawayfarm;8950424]
We have used the Madigan foal squeeze very successfully on a foal about the same age as yours who was doing well initially and then seemed to be floundering. There is really no downside to trying it. We weren’t hopeful given the time frame, but the results were excellent.

Several years ago, prior to the foal squeeze, I had a red bag delivery. The foal suffered oxygen deprivation and began seizing on his second day. He was given DMSO. He is showing on the AA circuit today.

There are many stories of successful recoveries and heartbreaks when it comes to treating foals. As long as I’m seeing improvement and can afford to treat, I have given mine a chance.

Good luck with your filly![/QUOTE]

Thank you Tuckaway for your post - Ive contacted the vet and asked her to do the squeeze procedure on the foal - worst that can happen is nothing at all I guess. Worth the shot! x

[wikkid]

[QUOTE=MysticOakRanch;8950466]
I have a friend who had “this” foal - dummy foal, very lax in pasterns. Four 1/2 years later, he’s perfectly normal, going under saddle, nice hunter prospect. The vet hospital told her with dummy foals - they either make it or they don’t, there isn’t a whole lot in between. I don’t know how true that is, but hers made it with no lasting issues:)[/QUOTE]

Thanks Mystic Oak - Im so hoping that she falls into the former! She is bright and alert today, just struggling with movement for extended periods of time and with the suckle reflex still. I think if she was still floppy and non responsive, I would be making the hard call but whilst her organs are all still functioning fine and she seems lucid, I will keep trying.

[wikkid]

Thanks Gumtree - I totally get where you are coming from. However if there is hope for this little one, I am trying my hardest to save her. She is exceptionally well bred and the sire is one I will not be able to get another cover off, so I cant have another go for this pedigree again.

I do count myself fortunate regardless as at least my mare is back to 100% after the prolapsed uterus - which was a potential death sentence. Silver linings and all…

[wikkid]

Thanks JJ - he biggest challenges at the moment are her lack of energy to keep getting up and down (she can get up and stay up for a while but then lies down and sleeps a fair bit) and her very poor suckle reflex. All bloods, organs, passing of feces and urine, bone and joint development (with the exception of the lax pasterns which the vets arent concerned with) are fine.

I think because of the above, this is what is making it so hard on decision-making. If she was going downhill, in pain, struggling etc then the decision would be an easy one…

[wikkid]

Thanks BeeHoney - as Id mentioned in another one of my replies, the fact that the limited capacity for extended periods of movement and the very limited suckle reflex are the “big” problems, this is what is making it hard. Other potential issues at this point are non-starters (sepsis, organ failure etc) and touch wood, continue not to be a problem for her…

I guess I will keep going as I have, with the theory that as long as she keeps moving forwards, I should do my best to support that…

[somanyhorses]

Sorry to hear you are going through this. There is some great advice here and support from experienced breeders. If you are on Facebook, I recommend joining The Foal Club. It is a closed group with over 10,000 members, and like here, some very experienced breeders. If you post the same question there, you will probably find many people willing to share their stories. It’s Australian, but has members from all around the world.

At the end of the day, only you know your situation, budget etc. Good on you for reaching out to hear others’ experiences. I really hope your little one pulls through. All the best.

[ElementFarm]

OP, Thanks for the update – I’ve been thinking about your girl.

Ours slept a great deal too. Vets didn’t seem concerned, as she was supposed to be “sleeping” in utero for another several weeks…
Ours had, it sounds like, more developmental issues than yours does. So if she’s bright and alert, just not up/running a lot, I would still be cautiously optimistic.
If/when you do bring her home, you should check with the vets about limiting her turnout/movement for several more weeks while the hocks/joints finish ossifying. That’s what we had to do, but it turned out okay – just gave mom and foal a double stall for a while.

Here’s another picture, at ~3 days, to show just how small ours was

again, continued Jingles, and please keep us updated.