Dutch Harness Horse CROSS temperment update

[winfieldfarm]

Don’t worry Hitch! I’m not expecting anyone to take anyone’s side on this one. It’s soley between Thomas and I as a difference in opinion on forum flavor, that’s all. He thinks me to be uneducated and inferior. I think him to be an old fart. Hasn’t a lick to do with what I think of his boundless knowledge.

Agree to disagree, I say. Totally harmless to me. Not loosing a wink of sleep over this one.

I’d hate to see Thomas leave too but you said it quite correctly. A crusty, salty boy he is. He isn’t going anywhere. He likes ruling this roost!

[tallyho392]

what is that wise saying…about one who must step upon the heads of others in order to feel tall?

if the cap fits, wear it…

[goeslikestink]

[QUOTE=Daisydonk;4897908]
There was me thinking that this was a nice friendly forum and I now discover that it aint.[/QUOTE]

you know the saying dont judge a book by its cover

you havent been here long enough yet loads to learn and loads of good people on here

[goeslikestink]

[QUOTE=winfieldfarm;4898233]
oh thomas…now you have me really laughing out loud…

chip on my shoulder? nope, not at all. feeling sorry for a grouchy ol’ Scotsman who must have the last word. sure…

Are you referring to me as the one posting behind anonymity, well, hard to be anonymous when my profile name is my farm name. Not that I would expect you to search me out. Have I had as much experience as you? no. Have I driven as many horses as you? no. Do I think you are a wealth of knowledge? yes. but…

I just don’t see any other point in your harshly replying to others’ posts other than the sheer fact that you are annoyed with our ignorance. Otherwise, why would someone who touts himself as a trainer and instructor use such methods to educate? Far be it for me to say that teaching by way of the rod is fairly old fashioned, don’t ya think. But you have a rep of pounding knowledge into the underlings by way of harsh corrections and references to our incapability to ever match your standards. I guess you could say that people should expect that from a forum but why? Why be like this? You’re right, I don’t get to determine the response. You are responsible for your responses. But why be so nasty.

I’ve read and reread both threads and I just keep coming back to you starting this by getting so annoyed that the titles didn’t say Cross. I just think it’s sad and comical that you have to get so bent over my not typing Cross in the title of my thread when the original thread so CLEARLY talks about it being an Arab cross (or Ayrab as you so affectionately insult the breed). The thread talks about the DHH side of the cross and asking questions about that half. And then you get bent when I light heartedly correct the (in your eyes) mistake and jab at you to not be so fussy. Then you keep dragging it out, inferring all kinds of nastiness my way. I think this is kinda fun to get you so annoyed with me. Showing a bit of your ugly side again, Thomas.

Whatever… can’t get me riled Thomas, I’m just skipping through the daisies having fun. I’m sorry you have to share the same planet with such a dolt as me! Tralalalalalalala

Count me in as a member of the “Thomas finds me annoying” club.[/QUOTE]

i dont think hes annoyed at you rather the other way around as you are of him
as he pointed out your mistake

funny thing is people only get agrressive or defensive when they know they are in the wrong as they cant accept honesty or in this case

facts

breeds and colour types markings etc are all taught here at the earliest covenience ie at pony club level D for a kid which is aged approx around 5-7

to the new horse owner then its often later in life

but one is is a trianer is one not so if ones any good then one should know already colours, marking , breeds, bred types and triats

one would hope one has the wisdom to learn from a master

[winfieldfarm]

oh geez, goeslikestink, are you getting in on this too? Okay, I’ll bite…

One is a trainer, yes, but like both you and Thomas, one was not born with all the knowledge of ever breed and discipline. Pardon the hell out of me for not already knowing all information about a breed I so clearly expressed never having worked with before. Heaven forbid one come to a social forum and ask a question of the masses. One would think that others would just get the gist and answer as socially acceptable as possible, not berate others for not knowing the knowledge or not presenting it in perfect format.

One has no problem learning from self proclaimed masters but one does find it condescending when said masters frequently spread knowledge with a good bit of verbal beat downs to question askers being so dunce-like as to even dare to ask the question.

I really wish COTH has voice recognition. It’s unfortunate that the tone can get lost in the written word. Then you would all hear that I am a very easy going gal who is markedly sarcastic in my humor. Oh well, the perils of the internet. No biggie to me…

I guess I just didn’t think that referring to the horse as a cross in the first few sentences of both threads instead of the title was a “mistake”. Don’t so many COTH posters chide others for not reading for comprehension? Thomas even admits he didn’t read the first thread thoroughly.

I’m happy to learn from others but social graces are social graces. I don’t think anyone could deny that some posters are harsher than others, regardless of their knowledge. Personally, I learned a long time ago not to let self righteous folks get to me. I’ve worked for lots of men the likes of Thomas. They are all very intelligent and knowledgable, able to get a job done that many couldn’t. But they are also the personality type that tends to look down their noses at lots of other folks as deficient. They are also the last person to be invited to the party, like a cat strolling through a mouse family reunion. I prefer to have fun with the mice that being the cat that everyone fears and revears. Thomas isn’t a god or a rock star. He’s a person, just like all of us, with flaws. He puts his pants on one leg at a time just like you or me. Different strokes…

So tell me how I can respect someone who can’t take a little ribbing and tells me I’m ackin to a cow pissing on a flat rock or a yapping dog?

[system]

As with all horses they have either a fight or flight. DHH’s tend to be hot so if they have the fight then you better watch out. I’ve had some in my charge that just couldn’t work out to drive or ride. End up with me, learn some ground manners, and then get to live out a life as a pasture potato.

[winfieldfarm]

Hey Hawk, I have a question for you.
This DHH CROSS! is very vocal in the pasture and we finally found her to only like going out with an old gelding. But she squeals like the dickens to horses over the fence, even if they haven’t even made a gesture towards her. She is also very fussy in the cross ties while getting tacked up. The biggest personality trait is her tendency to be very free with her hind feet. She kicks a bit in her stall for now apparent rhyme nor reason. She still squats and bucks up with the crupper and breeching after half a dozen workouts wearing the breeching. I’m doing lotssssss of desentisizing on her to body contact and obstacles so she can learn to accept the world. Still not sure she will cut the mustard for driving but she’s teaching me a lot too about how to handle her. Love new challenges I can learn from.

would you say that the fighters that you have had carry these same tendencies?

My apologies to the rest of the forum for not already knowing the answer to question. (wink)

I agree with you on the ground manners thing. If you read my earlier posts, I’ve mentioned this mare not having much exposure to the Equine Good Citizen program. It’s cool. everyday i just keep giving her ediquette lessons and she’s catching on - slowly!

[Thomas_1]

[QUOTE=Hawk;4899275]
As with all horses they have either a fight or flight. DHH’s tend to be hot so if they have the fight then you better watch out. I’ve had some in my charge that just couldn’t work out to drive or ride. End up with me, learn some ground manners, and then get to live out a life as a pasture potato.[/QUOTE]Horses are flight and FRIGHT animals.

Never had one yet that’s a FIGHTING animal!?

[hitchinmygetalong]

Windfields, has this mare been thoroughly vetted? She sounds like she’s got quite a bit going on mentally and I have to wonder if she might have some pain issues.

[Chaila]

Lauren Sprieser a COTH blogger got kicked out of the dressage arena at a show on hers:

http://www.chronofhorse.com/article/pvda-morven-day-2

[dressagediosa]

[QUOTE=Chaila;4899718]
Lauren Sprieser a COTH blogger got kicked out of the dressage arena at a show on hers:

http://www.chronofhorse.com/article/pvda-morven-day-2[/QUOTE]

…due to some rather spectacular athleticism, tragically not in a way that is encouraged in modern dressage.

I’ve chimed in about my DHH in a few posts over the years (you can search through the forum), and you’ll have to excuse that I have not read all the posts on this thread. Victorious is VERY hot. He’s spooky, quick as a cat, and once that neck is up and that back is down, I’m in a world of trouble. He also likes to bang on his stall door when he’s impatient for food or turnout, and he can be a bit of a pest with other horses in a playful way. We do individual turnout, which has solved that, but he’s an arrogant horse.

All that said, he’s an unbelievable athlete. He’ll be 8 in July, and is getting big scores at Fourth Level and Prix St. Georges (when he’s not rearing, of course). He’s got UNBELIEVABLE talent for piaffe and passage. He’s a mischevious horse, a blast to ride, and a great student. He’s a good boy at shows - a little spooky, but he’s himself, and he’s pretty much the same away from home as he is at home. And his coat is very coarse, like a Frieisian’s, but it does get quite shiny.

Because of his electricity, he’s not an amateur’s horse. And he can pull some fabulously naughty tricks! But he’s truly the highlight of my day, and I ride some damn nice horses every day. I also think he’s got a better canter than most, and is more compact and “warmbloody” than most, which makes him able to do what he does. He’s also been ridden very correctly (if I dare say so myself) from the very beginning, so I haven’t had to undo anything.

Here are two videos of him doing the Prix St. Georges at a schooling show this Spring. There’s two videos because halfway through the test the judge realized she had the wrong copy of the test. (Hilarious.) With some creative mathematics, I figured out what the score would have been - 71.5%. Not bad for his first effort!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=csMIr78J5Y0 - trot
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cpxca46CUVM - walk and canter

[winfieldfarm]

With regards to the vetting, she was thorough vetted out before coming here. Could she have some pain? Possibly but she also has had extremely inconsistent Saddle Seat training. She’s seven and hasn’t been shown. The barn that bred her has an ammy that rides and shows many of the farm horses. I think this mare’s personality was more than the ammy wanted to contend with so the riding was spotty at best- a few weeks here, then throw her out, a few weeks there, then leave her stand. So she got into this mentality that, when asked to canter under saddle after time off, she would hump and buck. They use a saddle with a very unorthodox tree, one I don’t find comfortable as I’ve tried it on our saddle seat horses. She was probably uncomfy and annoyed to say the least.

But…she has had lots of time off before coming here. In fact, she hadn’t been ridden since end of last show season before coming here.

I’m not making any excuses to cover possible pain issues. I’m just saying that until she gives me very valid evidence that work is truly hurting her, I think I will keep up the ground work and intro to line driving. She did very very well today. Only humped her butt the first few laps on the lead. It seems to me to be more annoyance with the breeching and crupper than pain. She’s very comfortable voicing her opinion! But once we went to work she really buckled down and had a very productive day.

She’s dropped some blubber already, muscled up and is settling in a bit more each day. I have high hopes for her. I think she’s all bark and not much bite. She just probably needed consistancy and a job she enjoyed. They were hoping for a park horse and she had other plans!

Poor Laura! How embarassing! Nothing like making the horse show blooper reel. If you’re going to make a spectacle of yourself, make it a show stopper, right!

[Cielo_Azure]

Did you read the most current version of the Whip? It isn’t in front of me but the gist of it was a story about major PITA DHH, who had a lot of the same issues as yours (part 1).

There were some physical issues but to come (in the next issue) is the fact that he needed some “remedial” training. The time line when this person began working with this horse and until the present is quite long…and she was talking bad, bad horse.

Yep your mare is an Arab cross, it appears to me that she is as much a DHH cross.

Off topic…

EXCEPT that having studied the DHH story -it seems like almost all modern DHH are crosses as well! The fact that many of them are half hackney or half ASB or a quarter or more of both and yet are still considered DHHs…kind of boggles the mind. They have done so much outbreeding into DHHs in the last couple of decades, I am not sure just what they are. Certainly, one doesn’t have a half hackney, with some ASB mixed in and then decide that based on a single inspection, it doesn’t carry hackney or ASB behavioral traits! Those claims by the registry seem half baked to me. A good stallion handler at an inspection can make even the most nasty horse appear benign! So, I don’t buy those claims about careful inspections weeding out bad behavioral apples, not for one minute. It isn’t the KWPN side of the DHH that bothers me, it is all the other breeds that they keep mixing in the genetic mixing pot! How could they possibly be homozygous in personality (as in easy going) as the registry claims, when many on the market today are half hackney or ASB?

Anyway, you should check out the article. As soon as I read it, I thought of your girl.

I also re-iterate. There is nothing wrong with a hot and/or forward horse, if that is what you like and can handle! It is the claims that they are homozygous in personality - easy going, and not difficult that bothers me. When I read the article above, it sure sounds like the author got suckered into the same quagmire (has a “few” issues, which turned out to be quick sand of behavioral badness).

I will add, when I was a young and foolish teen (1970s), I bought an Arab -based on the popular myth about what wonderful and sensitive horses they are and how trainable (yeh, trainwreck all right), etc. The bottom line, I hate it when I see smoke being blown up anyone’s bottom (espcially by breeders or even worse, a breed registry).

[winfieldfarm]

Laura. many of your horse’s traits sound very similiar to this mare, even if it is a cross with the Arabian.

She too is sort of impatient but just brimming with athleticism. I think the Arab half gave her the coat texture as she is very fine coated and thin skinned over the face like an Arab.

When she was shown to me, the farm said she’s not big enough for Half Arab English Pleasure. I thought “really?” But it occurred to me today that really, she isn’t that tall. I’m 5’4" and stand a head tall over her rump for sure. I have two full sister Half Arab Saddlebred crosses that stand easily a full hand taller that this mare but are much finer structured. She gives the impression of big mass not from height but from shear solid beefy stucture. She is like a line backer!

I am going to download these vids and watch them. Your guy sounds like a blast! I like the horses that make you stay thinking ahead of them. I think they challenge us to be better horsemen! When you say naughty tricks, what do you mean!? I’d love to hear!

[winfieldfarm]

Cielo - are you talking the June issue? Haven’t gotten it but will watch the post box for it.

Isn’t it funny about the DHH? I have to admit when the Arab crowd starting importing them to cross with Arabians, I didn’t have too much of an opinion either way. Saw a lot of babies down at LaCroix’s in Kentucky. Saw a lot of DHH mares that, to my Arabian eye, looked really coachy, coarse and out of proportion front to back. Many mares had huge shoulders with these wierd wimpy hind ends. They all had hock action but it was just…weird. A lot of the neysayers were speculating that the DHH registry was only letting the throwaway mares come to America. Isn’t this a common theme when a breed crosses the ocean? Didn’t know squat about the breed so I thought I would just keep my ear to the ground and see how the first five years of cross outs went. To tell you the truth, I don’t think they have made toooooo much impact overall. Now adays, the Arabian and Half Arabian is such a specialized type based on what the horse is bred to do, why would we be suprised when someone wants to try a new out cross.

I looked at many weanlings and yearlings and the nicest one out of the bunch wasn’t an Arab cross but a DHH stallion crossed on an ASB mare. It looked like a really upright pretty ASB with bone like a freight train. Couldn’t tell you what happened with it because at the time, the only breed registry shows it could have shown at were that new Renai Registry.

Oh well, to each their own I guess. I love a good horse, no matter the breed or discipline but it does make you wonder if the horse industry falls under the same spell as the LabraDoodle, Pugapoo, Yorkipoo.

[dressagediosa]

[QUOTE=winfieldfarm;4900500]
When you say naughty tricks, what do you mean!? I’d love to hear![/QUOTE]

His MO when he’s frightened or frustrated is to stop, or stand up. He’s got this charming little spook and turn trick, too, and while he’s quick, I’ve known him since he was 3, so I can usually feel all of the above coming and ride accordingly. He’s not for the faint of heart!

On the ground, he’s very clever. He can catch his curb rein in his mouth and chew on it if he flips his head a very specific way, and he likes to play with his feed tub in turnout - picks it up, flops it against his chest, even uses it as a frisbee and can hit the other horses with astonishing accuracy. I have a Jolly Ball hanging in his stall from a rope, and he cuddles with it - puts himself between it and the wall, closes his eyes, and leans into it. It’s a little pathetic, but it’s also pretty adorable. He’ll also put it in the middle of his back, like a rider. When we’re not fast enough (for his tastes) in getting food to him, he’ll fling the ball around and bite it, and it makes a pretty terrific noise. And he runs his nose against the stall bars, and he flaps his lips together… he’s really terribly entertaining! Never a dull moment.

http://www.laurensprieser.com/wp/horses/victorious/ (not sure how long this link will work; I’m hoping to get my new website up and running today) has a bunch of photos, including of his favorite hobby, swimming in our pond!

[winfieldfarm]

OMG, this mare flaps her lips too! How funny!!

Gotta love goofballs.

[system]

[QUOTE=winfieldfarm;4899399]
Hey Hawk, I have a question for you.
This DHH CROSS! is very vocal in the pasture and we finally found her to only like going out with an old gelding. But she squeals like the dickens to horses over the fence, even if they haven’t even made a gesture towards her. She is also very fussy in the cross ties while getting tacked up. The biggest personality trait is her tendency to be very free with her hind feet. She kicks a bit in her stall for now apparent rhyme nor reason. She still squats and bucks up with the crupper and breeching after half a dozen workouts wearing the breeching. I’m doing lotssssss of desentisizing on her to body contact and obstacles so she can learn to accept the world. Still not sure she will cut the mustard for driving but she’s teaching me a lot too about how to handle her. Love new challenges I can learn from.

would you say that the fighters that you have had carry these same tendencies?

My apologies to the rest of the forum for not already knowing the answer to question. (wink)

I agree with you on the ground manners thing. If you read my earlier posts, I’ve mentioned this mare not having much exposure to the Equine Good Citizen program. It’s cool. everyday i just keep giving her ediquette lessons and she’s catching on - slowly![/QUOTE]

Yes, they can be very quirky. The one I have now would run you right out of the field. I’ve never had a horse that would charge like that, no respect for your space. Kicking in the stall equates to not getting fed. I never reward my horses for a bad behavior. I don’t beat up on my horses either. I’ve also had really bad horses that are rogues and dangerous. They get euthanized. There are just to many nice horses out there that the dangerous ones don’t deserve the good life. You have to decide for yourself how long you are willing to work with this problem before you or someone gets hurt. You could try having her spayed, but most of her behaviors now are probably learned. I had someone call me to help with their TB that would rear and throw herself on the ground not caring if she hurt herself in the process of killing someone. She flipped with me once, thankfully I wasn’t hurt. Could I have fixed her, most likely, but I would have never trusted her for anyone else to ride. She just wasn’t going to be anything more than a backyard horse so she wasn’t worth the risk. She was sold to this family as a horse suitable for a 13 year old kid. I hope some of this helps. Just know when it’s time to cut your losses.

[CDE_Driver]

Well, I am going to go out on a limb here, don my flame suit, and give my .02.

The Harness Horses I have seen/experienced that come from the Amish in this country are not always of the quality that the Dutch breeders in Holland have intended. The Dutch horses I have seen/experienced that come from KWPN breeders in this country seem to be of higher quality, better temperament, better conformation. I think that thoughtful breeding rather than the willie nillie breeding that seems to go on may produce a different horse than the KWPN intended. Yes, there are Hackney and Saddlebred stallions in the bloodlines of many Harness Horses, but only after those stallions have undergone a rigorous stallion selection process and been approved by the KWPN for breeding. Maybe Harness Horses are a bit more complicated and are not for a beginner horseman, maybe not. I have an imported, well bred Hanoverian that is not a beginners horse and will most likely never be, that doesn’t indict the entire breed though.

[winfieldfarm]

Thanks so much for all the good opinions of the DHH temperment. I think maybe it seems my words make this mare out to be some kind of fire breathing dragon. She’s not, she’s just not the in your pocket puppy push over that so many of our Arabian horses are here.

I like her a lot. I don’t think her intentions are to be malicious or mean. I do find that she has some impatience with waiting for supper, having other horses look at her over the fence, getting polo wraps on. Nothing hard core. She is presenting herself as fairly level headed with what we did yesterday. My indoor looks like a playground half the time. We have traffice cones, horse balls, swim noodles, the high line hanging down. I’ve deliberately left it a mine field and we just line drive around it all. My carriage trainies will pull weight via a second set of tugs hooked to a flat square of combo panel wire. We add one or two lengths of 6 x 6 with break away twine to the panel, depending on horse’s size. At one point, we were dragging the drag over the traffice cones and noodles. She was very focused and listened to my voice. No panic. Then the medium horse ball bounced off the trace and ended up between her and the drag rolling along well behind her. I steadied her, she gave me an ear and make two circles at the trot with this big blue ball rolling along in front of the drag. At any point, She could have really said it was too much stim but she was enjoying the work. She has really learned that I am to be trusted and she said, okay boss, let’s just keep plugging along. After a short two laps, she halted on the first ask and stood while I walked over and rolled the ball out of the tugs.

Very unorthodox to some but the more our horses are exposed to safely and harmlessly, the better they learn to handle the world, right?

With regards to blending two breeds for an outcrop- I think the mare has gotten the best of both breeds. She is smart like an Arabian. She doesn’t catch the lessons as quickly or holds them as well. We have to do a lot more repeat, repeat, repeat for it to stick. She has a very distinct look. Very big bodied but not too tall as to be super intimidating. She didn’t get the overwhelming motor of the DHH but she got pure athleticism from both breeds. As I said before, Sport Horse Deluxe.

Regarding spaying - well, she did the typical “I’m at a new barn. I’m in raging season as soon as I come off the trailer”. Week one was difficult because she was so distracting with hormones. But We’ve only had her three weeks now and she’s made leaps and bounds in her progress. Once I feel she isn’t needed heavy reminders on the Whoa and Go commands, we will venture out to the outdoor where there is more distraction. Plus, she isn’t mine. She’s still owned by the other farm. I’m only evaluating for Sport Horse potential. She is for sale but they are realistic about the market and don’t expect to get rich on her. They like the way I train and she’s taking up space at their farm. This is an experimental deal. If they like what I do with her, they will send me many! more horses. Not all breedings will work out for their saddle seat program but they just don’t have time to train outside their breeding goals. Doubt they would consider spaying her. She’s harmless and will make someone a really nice show horse!

We are going to do a progress video for the owners by next week so I can post snippets for you all to critique, discuss, make fun of!!!

FYI - her registered name is Watersprite but they call her Tootsie. She came so chubby, we call her Tootsie ROLL! Anyone with Arab Datasource can look her up to see her bloodlines. I mentioned she was one of 5! embryo transfers. They got 5 babies all different colors and she was the most boring of the bunch to them. Always a bridesmaid never a bride… poor tootsie rollllll