Dutch harness horse drama. Update major mare/ foal neglect Nov 2023 post 1782 Update Kate Shearer responds post 1930 Nov 25/23

[enjoytheride]

@RHdobes563

It’s possible that this horse is registered as a Half-Arabian. Years ago, a lot of Arabian people were buying/breeding Saddlebred/Arabian crosses to get “Park” and “English Pleasure” horses in which high trotting action was desirable. They might be moving on to the Bred-for-Fancy-Driving-Classes breeds (European and American) to get those crosses now for the Half-Arabian classes.

Now, it seems that Arabian/warmblood-of-choice horses are being bred/bought for the Arabian Sporthorse classes and shows.

LOL. Arabian/Saddlebred crosses are still incredibly common in “Main Ring” under saddleseat as well as Arabian/DHH crosses and often show in both fine harness and under saddle. Classes are going to vary by action. Arabian/WB crosses are increasing in popularity for those who do Sporthorse as they tend to have the desirable conformation but you’re still gonna see a lot of half Saddlebred and half DHH in Sport Horse. It’s very likely the horse is registered half arab AND Dutch Warmblood because if you could, why wouldn’t you.

Graaf Kelly is a popular stallion for Arabian crosses and showed both in harness and under saddle in the Saddleseat world, and yes he canters. For people who aren’t familiar with the Saddleseat world he probably looks pretty hot but that’s all just normal for Saddleseat people, and actually the canter is very easy to sit. If you’ve never hand galloped a park horse you should. For someone looking for more of a Sport Horse cross Gaudi is VERY popular.

I’m not sure how this thread went from talking about a breeder advertising her horses as something they aren’t and starving them to death to bashing the Amish breeding programs and the Saddleseat world. The Arabian people take bloodlines VERY seriously. There is also A LOT of money in DHH in the Amish world, the Amish import stallions and spend a lot of thought on their breeding programs (they also breed Friesians, Hackneys, Halflingers, and Morgans) but the horses are advertised as what they are and their showcases and shows are a very big deal. It might not be someone’s cup of tea but it’s a different world with different purposes and doesn’t deserve to be casually lumped into what Kate is doing just because someone doesn’t like the way the horse moves. The top end Amish breeding programs are EXPENSIVE and not some random “Amish cross” What Kate is purchasing for her breeding program is not comparable.

As an example of Amish breeding and prices, the Superior Morgan sale just wrapped up in which a sexed male EMBRYO sold for 74,000 because it was a full brother to the stallion “Jus Sayin.”

[bingbingbing]

Her new profile pic doesn’t help make her case. Especially the hoof in the left corner.
Those poor mares and babies.

[McGurk]

Re: that profile pic. This is a tiny point, but for ever and ever and ever, I was always told to bed foaling mares on straw, not shavings, because the shavings stuck to the umbilical stump and contributed to navel ill.

I remember having straw shipped in to a small barn with one foaling mare for exactly that reason.

Is that no longer a thing?

Also, regardless of bedding type, who thinks that’s adequate bedding for a foaling stall?

[enjoytheride]

I worked at a barn and we bedded on sawdust, we always got straw in for foaling season and the only time I saw a foal born on shavings/sawdust it was an early pregnancy where the mare didn’t exhibit signs of foaling, foaled overnight unexpectedly, and even after birth they were moved onto straw for the first week. That picture shows very little bedding in the first place!

[Tracygraci]

It’s never going to be. Look them up from the previous states. This is almost a year.

[Laurierace]

That is not why you should not foal out on shavings but yes you should not foal out on shavings. Some people do and never have a problem just like some people turn their horses out in barbed wire and never have a problem. Until they do.
The reason you don’t foal out on shavings is klebsiella

[Paint_Party]

Did you see how many straws of frozen semen she has listed for sale? Some are partial straws (and very much so), yet still. It seems like she was planning a lot of future jumping harness hunters.

[Zlotych]

Non kwpn registered parents can have foals in the register b book.

[enjoytheride]

Good lord, I was first noticing the foal being foaled on a barren stall on shavings and didn’t even notice the horrible feet on that mare.

[firecracker]

@enjoytheride

Good lord, I was first noticing the foal being foaled on a barren stall on shavings and didn’t even notice the horrible feet on that mare.

Uhhh, all I can say is, YIKES. That foot in the bottom left corner looks awful. Surprised she’s intentionally foaling out on shavings. And a very thin layer of shavings, at that. You can see the pooled fluids between the foal and dam, there aren’t enough shavings to absorb it. I have very limited experience with breeding and foaling out, but it is my understanding that a deep bed of straw is safest.

Here’s the photo, in case anyone is wondering (it’s currently her profile photo on Facebook):

[enjoytheride]

The Amish have very very serious breeding programs and care a great deal about bloodlines, import horses frequently, and sell for a lot of money. A sexed embryo recently sold for 75k from and into a Amish breeding program of fine harness Morgans. Their harness horse breeding programs (several breeds not just DHH) are entirely different from what pulls their buggy or what they might have around the farm for general riding or use, or what winds up at the sale barns. What someone buys from them is a different story.

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

Yes. The shavings stuck on the foal are making me antsy just looking at that.

[enjoytheride]

@firecracker

Uhhh, all I can say is, YIKES. That foot in the bottom left corner looks awful. Surprised she’s intentionally foaling out on shavings. And a very thin layer of shavings, at that. You can see the pooled fluids between the mare and dam, there aren’t enough shavings to absorb it. I have very limited experience with breeding and foaling out, but it is my understanding that a deep bed of straw is safest.

Straw is safest and farms that usually use shavings typically switch out to straw when foaling is imminent. If a unexpected foal lands on shavings, people certainly don’t take pics of it AND they swap the mare and foal to straw immediately. I personally hate straw so always liked when the foal was old enough to be switched back!

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

@enjoytheride

The Amish have very very serious breeding programs and care a great deal about bloodlines, import horses frequently, and sell for a lot of money. A sexed embryo recently sold for 75k from and into a Amish breeding program of fine harness Morgans. Their harness horse breeding programs (several breeds not just DHH) are entirely different from what pulls their buggy or what they might have around the farm for general riding or use, or what winds up at the sale barns. What someone buys from them is a different story.

I hear you and understand that.

My question in the post you were replying to though is how KWPN registration works when an approved and licensed KWPN DHH stallion is crossed on a mare who is not DHH. I really don’t know much about harness breeding rules. Is it possible to get a nice, registered Hackney or Morgan mare approved by KWPN (the way people can with certain breeds for sporthorse purposes ), and the resulting foal could get foalbook or register A papers? Or is this not allowed by KWPN?

It does seem clear that the ADHHA would give those foals full papers, given their 50% rule.

Anyway… it’s just curiosity about registry rules on my part. I’m not trying to slam all Amish breeding. There definitely are very high end breeders who produce very nice harness horses. There also are Amish beeeders at the other end of the spectrum, who produce more random crosses. The Amish do utilize auctions for horses that no longer serve a useful purpose, and thus limit their financial losses associated with these horses. It is what it is.

[fordtraktor]

Yes, there are quite a few Hackney, etc stallions approved KWPN. For example, Cambridge Cole is a famous Hackney in Ulandro’s pedigree.

A Harness type can be bred with a Dressage or Jumper type and registered in that breeding direction. That is what Kate is doing.

[CanteringCarrot]

A barn I boarded at once did have a mare foal on bedding other than straw. She had allergies and couldn’t tolerate straw. All other mares I ever saw foal there were always on straw. They switched to straw in a timely manner.

Everything was fine with the mare that didn’t foal on straw, and I understood their reasoning behind it.

[McGurk]

@Laurierace

klebsiella

Can you give me some more details on this? A quick Google didn’t give me much equine specific info.

Maybe I heard “risk of infection” and erroneously concluded navel ill?

PS - This is why I love this board, I love learning from the experts here.

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

@fordtraktor

A Harness type can be bred with a Dressage or Jumper type and registered in that breeding direction. That is what Kate is doing.

Hmmm. That’s interesting. So you think these foals do have full KWPN papers, as a result of studbook rules?

I guess this is a matter of buyer beware then.

[fordtraktor]

I don’t just think they do. They absolutely do.

[2DogsFarm]

@Paint_Party

planning a lot of future jumping harness hunters.

Well, she might look into CDE buyers for that.
I witnessed a young stallion decide the way Out of a water obstacle was to jump one of the solid gates.
He got onto the top, Marathon carriage stayed in the water, miraculously, both got out unscathed.

Back to regularly scheduled programming…