I owned a DHH/Arab cross (I think there was some saddlebred in the sire line, too, just for kicks). He was supposed to be a county/park type horse but lacked the movement for that. Made a nice low-level horse for me, though. He was sold/fipped (upwards, happily) and is currently showing 3rd/4th level on the Arab circuit, I think.
I can’t imagine someone purpose-breeding that cross for English disciplines, though. He’s a nice ammy-friendly Dressage horse because he utterly failed to live up to his breeding, not because he was a successful, purpose-bred cross. He’s absolutely one of those cases where you look at the horse in front of you, not the papers (half Arab in his case; I don’t think his pedigree even has more than the sire name listed, much less any claims about the sire’s bloodlines – so at least no “Dutch Warmblood cross” make believe in his sale history, as far as I know).
You could say this over and over and people still either will not get it or just not believe it. It’s been said numerous times in the thread. The thread was started 2k posts ago over KS possibly misrepresenting her horses as KWPN because they are half KWPN jumper bred, half KWPN registered DHH. They are registered KWPN, therefore they are Dutch WBs. People don’t understand that the KWPN has different breeding directions but each of those directions are still under the KWPN umbrella. People are also confused by the concept of an open stud book. They believe KWPN to be a closed stud book when it is not. A KWPN registered horse may have Trakehner and German bloodlines while still being registered KWPN and thus, considered a Dutch WB by registry.
If the horse is sired by a KWPN approved stallion, then it would be a Dutch WB cross. If the horse is out of a KWPN registered or approved dam, then it would be a Dutch WB cross.
ETA: keep in mind, it isn’t technically DNA that makes a horse a Dutch WB. Since it is an open stud book, the registry will approve, say for example, an Oldenburg mare to produce KWPN registrable foals. I’m fact, KWPN is a registry that doesn’t even require that an Oldenburg mare be inspected to have her offspring eligible for registry if sired by a KWPN approved or affiliate stallion.
You weren’t incorrect about the infection part. I can’t explain the science part very well but wood shavings can harbor kliebsella and pseudomonas so it’s safest to not take the chance
Many years ago, there was a push to cross Arabs with DHH and create a new “breed”, much like the National Show Horse (Arab/Saddlebred). Is that still going on, or did it lose steam?
That was in the Arab world, trying for fancy English Pleasure and Park horses.
Well… I definitely didn’t get it before this thread, and still thought I was misunderstanding something.
So I went to the KWPN-NA website and tried to look closely at their breeding rules.
And you all are right.
If a KWPN DHH mare is bred to a KWPN riding type stallion (either jumping or dressage) or an Erkend stallion…
The foal is considered a “riding type” foal in terms of breeding direction, and is eligible for full papers.
KWPN will accept DHH mares into their studbook that have significant percentages of Hackney and American Saddlebred in their pedigree.
KWPN-NA will also apparently accept some ADHHA mares into their studbook. ADHHA only requires 50% DHH blood in the pedigree for registration. The other 50%? It seems like it can be any number of things. Including grade or unknown things. Not sure how KWPN-NA deals with that or what their selection process is when looking at ADHHA papered horses. The website was short on details.
Sooooo… in theory… Kate’s mare “Ivanka” might indeed have a Hackney x Draft cross as a dam, who was a decent harness type and somewhat stylish… who was bred to the fully approved DHH stallion “Dondersteen”, and thus “Ivanka” got ADHHA papers, and then the mare possibly made it into the main KWPN DHH studbook. And then Kate crossed this driving type KWPN studbook mare with a fully approved riding type stallion, and… voila! The resulting foal is recorded in the KWPN studbook and does have full KWPN papers, like other quality warmblood sport horses. But… this foal’s granddam is quite possibly a grade Hackney draft crossbred, or something else like that. Maybe a really nice, practical, somewhat stylish buggy horse… who did that job very well… but NOT a riding type. Not at all. Not a mare that other warmblood registries would approve for sport horse breeding.
I find this to be an odd loophole.
I wonder if other people will identify this loophole, and also start trying to use DHH mares for riding horse breeding. My guess is that DHH broodmares can be sourced for very affordable prices in some parts of the US…
Buyers definitely need to beware, and learn about the relevance of mare lines when buying sport horses.
It’s not a loophole, it’s how this registry works. People can and do use them for riding horses and other people can and do cross them with other breeds. Just like any breeder good DHH breeders don’t let their well bred stock go for cheap.
I do understand this. And there are certainly some very nice DHH who are great for people to ride. I’ve also seen many who look like grade horses, and move like driving horses.
When people buy a “warmblood” with full papers from one of the top tier registries, that has typically meant 4 generations of riding type sport horses with verified pedigree, and only outcrosses to blood (Thoroughbred, Arabian) with verified pedigrees, or specifically designated and approved riding type horses (some PRE and Lusitano stallions have been approved for Dressage breeding by GOV in recent years).
People have regarded a KWPN riding type horse with full studbook papers as comparable to a GOV or Hanoverian in terms of the quality of the breeding and the stringent standards for verified pedigree. Other registries like OLD NA and RPSI were regarded as not as stringent in terms of careful pedigree requirements, and AWSSR has been regarded as in another tier below that. Of course there are many quality horses with each of these registries who are very nice to ride, but verification of pedigree to a high standard is important when people are evaluating a papered horse and considering its value as potential breeding stock.
With this policy of allowing KWPN DHH studbook mares with Hackney or American Saddlebred or whatever else possibly being present the first three generations of the pedigree - the policy of recording foals from these mares in the main studbook as “riding type” ? It is something some people will take note of, and it might change how people regard KWPN registered warmblood horses… especially with respect to their potential breeding quality. My guess is that GOV will decline to accept these KWPN mares and resulting goals into their main studbook, even though they are also an open registry, as these mares and fillies likely do not meet GOV pedigree requirements. In the past, a KWPN studbook mare would very likely meet pedigree requirements for the GOV main mare book.
This isn’t a KWPN thing. Many of the registries allow similar. And sometimes it works—Galoubet A, for example, was out of a French Trotter mare.
Besides, there are many full WB horses of poor quality out there. Just because a horse comes from riding types doesn’t indicate quality.
People purchasing a horse of any breed/registry need to do their due diligence and understand what it is they are buying.
Your expectations are unrealistic. If someone buys ones of these foals without bothering to notice it is out of a crap harness mare with no performance record, that’s really on them.
Galoubet’s dam was a very specific French Trotter mare from a VERY specific mare line that could and did produce jumpers. And she was used well over 40 years ago.
I doubt there are many French Trotter mares being used today for Selle Francais breeding
As I just said in my post… I absolutely agree that there are great riding horses from all different breeds, and certainly terrible fully pedigreed warmbloods who have any number of issues. But when it comes to buying a horse that has papers from the MAIN studbook of a well respected registry… especially a mare with main studbook papers… they can be priced at a premium to a certain extent, because they have greater breeding value.
Also… it would be news to me if GOV, Westfalen, Rheinlander, Hanoverian or Holsteiner accepted a mare with Hackney or American Saddlebred in the first three generations into their main studbook. Maybe I’m wrong… but I think they would automatically relegate a mare like that to a pre mare book, and resulting foals from approved stallions would only get COP.
You may want to go back through and reread the thread. There have been a lot of resources already posted. A lot of people here, including myself, are sharing information they have learned over time by direct involvement with breeding and the KWPN registry.
I don’t understand why you have the impression that the DHH isn’t for riding? The DHH, aka the Tuigpaard, was developed from both the Groningen and Gelderlander lines. It was essentially a family horse used both for agricultural work and transportation. The Tuigpaard, aka the DHH, has been used for riding and there are both DHH and DHH crosses competing in sport. I know a full DHH stallion training Grand Prix dressage currently and he is phenomenal.
Once again, the DHH is KWPN. They are just as much a KWPN horse as the dressage and jumping directions. People do not typically cross the harness lines to get jumpers, however. DHH is a KWPN breeding direction.
KWPN became on an open stud book because they realized the risks of being a closed book with too few breeding candidates. So yes, they do approve the hackney and other breeds (for example) to create genetic diversity within the harness lines. They do this with every breeding direction. Most modern dressage lines descend from combining dressage and jumper lines. Breeding has become more refined as we have developed horses specifically for certain lines of sport. That does not mean that a hackney can not be a certain type that is compatible with the KWPN breeding direction. That does not mean Kate is using a loophole for breeding either. That is the concept of an open stud book. KS is using poor quality breeding candidates and starving her horses, yes.
Also, why do you keep referring to the broodmare as a draft? If it is because of the belly marking, then that’s an incorrect assumption to make - Tuigpaarden lines frequently have sabino and rabicano markings. It is not uncommon at all to see belly markings or high whites (etc) in Dutch horses.
I think Galoubet A also was not approved as a stallion due to his pedigree until after he had established some very serious sport results. It wasn’t as Kate suggests that the trotter blood was crossed into the pedigree intentionally to bring a certain type, he was approved despite that not because of it.
Based on your previous post, I know that Drew in the KWPN office reviews pedigrees of ADHH horses before they can be registered KWPN and I am quite certain she would not accept a horse out of a grade dam. The dutch rules and regulations are definitely very complex- I have a KWPN colt who is lovely and some of the processes within that stud book I think are hard to understand until you have a horse to do the thing with and have a specific example to work off versus just the theoretical, if that makes sense.
You are comparing apples to oranges. Each registry has a breeding direction, and several with different breeding directions within the registry. For example, the SBS stud book focuses primarily on jumpers. They have no use for hackney blood for a harness breeding direction because of their emphasis on producing jumpers. I wouldn’t go to the SBS stud book and expect to pull from it a dressage stallion to produce GP dressage offspring either. The KWPN isn’t an inferior registry because it has a harness line. They are a superior registry because they have very specific breeding directions with very successful horses produced for an intended purpose in each.
