I’ve been to a bunch of the big thoroughbred farms in Kentucky. Not only have they stuck with live cover, but they video every single interaction so that if anyone ever has any question, they have absolute proof of which stallion covered which mare.
13 Likes
That would likely depend on the registry.
Any that I am familiar with require the breeding be on a breeding report (so no freebies from splitting a dose) submitted by the sires representative.
1 Like
Yes, generally multiple foals are allowed out of the same mare in any given year. I’ve registered five out of the same mare by different stallions in the same year.
I’ve also registered clones.
6 Likes
Bit of extra cash to be made on the side with an OnlyFans account too.
“Horse fluffers preparing the next Derby winner!”
As with the best jokes, it’s funnier in the fact that I’m only half joking.
3 Likes
Yes I had three icsi foals from same dam in 2022 all registered with Kwpn-na no issue.
3 Likes
I also should add I had an additional two icsi babies (baloubet du rouet x evie) registered Kwpn as well. So both were embryos from the same oocyte pull
2 Likes
Guess you don’t deal with the warmblood registries then.
1 Like
13 Likes
Not to mention, live cover is also much more successful, in an economical way. With live cover, I don’t have to fret and panic that my FedEx shipment got delayed in Memphis, and semen arrives to me dead… costing a missed cycle on the mare: lost $$ in vet bills, another delay in the breeding season for the year, and more bills to get her in foal on a subsequent cycle. With live cover, I know she is getting the intended stallion (! Capone, anyone?), and I know she got plenty of live swimmers to do the job. (Also, the big farms routinely collect the “dismount sample” and study under a microscope to determine semen quality at time of cover.) Also with live cover, I have a day or two of leeway…I can breed today, and as long as she ovulates within 48hrs (sometimes longer!!) I’m good. I don’t have to inseminate within 12 hrs, as with a frozen breeding (requiring more vet checks). And there is reasonable belief that “the other stuff” in semen (seminal plasma, “gel,” removed in collections) has a positive, anti-inflammatory effect on the uterus to improve conception rates. It may explain why some mares are unable to conceive AI, but do with live cover.
Does it mean you have to ship your mare to the stallion? Yes. But honestly, I prefer to haul my mare from FL to KY overnight, to be bred the next day (and board her there for a month) instead of praying my FedEx semen arrives on time. (I’ve been on BOTH ends of this, as standing a TB sport stallion of my own, and breeding commercial TB mares in KY. FedEx has screwed my stallion more than once.) If my mare is in my trailer, I know she’ll get there on time…versus the disaster that is FedEx, weather delays, wrong address delivery, etc. And it doesn’t cost that much more for me to drive her myself, compared to collection and shipping fees.
14 Likes
Good point about rising costs, and esp,. veterinary expenses as more complicated processes and techniques such as using frozen semen, ETs, etc., require more expertise and specialized equipment on the part of the vet.
And yes, many SOs have realized they cannot control how doses are managed or used once they leave their facility, although some still have contract language about it. Schockemohle for instance (arguably the biggest and most well known stallion operation in Europe) has language on his website such as: (Bolding is mine.)
2.2 The order should contain the following information:
- Desired stallion
- Type of insemination (delivery or insemination from the stallion owner)
- Type of semen (fresh semen or frozen semen)
- Name, full address, telephone number and e-mail address of the breeder
- Exact shipping address, if different from the breeder
- Details of the mare (name, life number, copy of the certificate of pedigree)
IMPORTANT: The delivered semen may only be used for the registered mare!- Details of the inseminating veterinarian/user
- Membership number of the breeding association to which the insemination is to be reported (breeding certificates must be submitted to the stallion owner at the beginning of the breeding season)
- whether embryo transfer is desired (possible from March 15th to August 15th of each year)4.3 The stud certificate will only be issued and passed on to the respective breeding association once the stud fee has been paid and all other costs incurred (veterinarian, stable fees, shipping, etc.) have been settled.
4.4 Should the breeder use the semen without permission (e.g. insemination of non-registered mares, non-reporting of a successful embryo transfer, etc.), this will be punished with a fine of €2,500.00 without exception, in addition to the outstanding items .
9.1 The frozen stud fee is charged per mare and includes up to a maximum of 2 insemination doses. After that, the full TG stud fee is due again, without credit or entitlement to a credit due to non-pregnancy.
9.6 The frozen semen can only be sent if a usage agreement for the frozen semen signed by the breeder has previously been returned to the stallion owner by fax or e-mail.
9.7 The frozen semen remains the property of the stallion owner. If not used, the frozen semen must be returned to the stallion owner. It must not be passed on to third parties or used on mares that are not intended for this purpose.
I thought I saw something somewhere that specifically referred to the policy on split doses, but can’t find it so maybe I saw that elsewhere (for instance, on a semen importers website). However, as mentioned earlier, it would be a very expensive and frustrating endeavor for a Euro-based stallion owner to try to sue a NA-based mare owner for “mis-use” of semen - and NA breeders know that, so they just proceed with their breeding programs without much concern about being sued.
I will also add that I am in no way implying that ALL breeders routinely split doses. Some adhere to standard breeding practices such as using full doses per insemination attempt. But again - splitting doses has become so commonplace that it doesn’t cause raised eyebrows like it once did.
1 Like
In addition to the good information provided by EventerAJ, there has been plenty of discussion over the years that part of the reason JC is sticking with live cover is to help support the “small breeders” who have traditionally been considered the grass-roots of TB breeding. There are many, many small operations who stand a stallion, which helps support those operations financially. There is also a great deal of belief that this practice helps enhance the diversity of the gene pool. If JC allows shipped semen, then most breeders will start using the core groups of stallions standing at the big operations, and the gene pool narrows. The Thoroughbred gene pool is pretty narrow as it is, so I can understand that philosophy.
25 Likes
I think this is an important point.
7 Likes
Didn’t the thoroughbred breeders just recently shoot down an idea to limit the number of mares a stallion could cover each year?
If so, they must not be too worried about the narrowing gene pool.
7 Likes
I’m curious to what breeders you are referring to? I deal mostly with icsi straws and if not have fresh contracts on other mares. I am not familiar with any breeders that I deal with doing what you mention at all. In fact once I realized I had more Diabolo d’Esquelmes frozen I immediately reached out to Rhonda and let her know and she just said if I choose to use it just pay another contract fee, which of course I would. But I am interested to hear which breeders you are talking about.
1 Like
That’s great but majority of stallions I have semen for are deceased. So icsi is the only way to use those stallions and keep the lines alive.
2 Likes
Out of curiousity, I looked at the KWPN-NA website and saw this:
C. To register foals bred by imported frozen KWPN semen:
- The mare owner must report the breeding on the frozen semen insemination form that is available from the website or office. The form must be completed and mailed to the office. A birth declaration will be issued and the foal owner must then follow the instructions in ‘A’.
This is the form they are referring to.
So although they don’t require a Breeding Certificate per se, they do require the mare owner to submit the Insemination Form. I also noted this language on the form:
Owners of Activated KWPN-NA stallions and Affiliate stallions typically submit a breeding report. You can call the office to see if your mare’s breeding has already been recorded.
I wonder how it works when the breeder is using imported frozen semen that has been obtained from a semen importer. In those cases, the stallion owner usually has no idea who the mares are, and I would be surprised if the semen importers submit breeding reports to the registry - it seems like a lot of paperwork the importers would have to keep up with. And as mentioned earlier, there are many cases where doses aren’t even used for a specific mare that year and are instead stored for future use or sold to another breeder. It sounds like such a headache for the importers and the registries to manage, that it is no wonder they have caved in and are no longer trying to help police how semen is used.
3 Likes
In regards to what? The ones who don’t split doses? Or the ones who resell their unused doses?
At any rate, I am not naming names but suffice to say, I know of multiple breeders who do both - and some are pretty highly regarded breeders and in very good standing with their respective registries.
1 Like
In case you missed it, the person that does all the registering of our Kwpn-na horses has spoken a few times on this forum. I get that you are doing as much research as you can but yes we file a semen identification but that is only so they can send out the dna form and request and to match the dna to who we say. It has nothing to do with illegally obtained semen etc.
Unlike other breeds the majority of stallion owners I deal with sell just straws. They give a recommendation as to how many straws would be a dose but it’s up to you to buy one or more. At that point no one cares what you do with it. The problem that arises is when there is a LFG is attached. For me I don’t worry as I buy just singular straws and have never had any restrictions put on the use of them.
3 Likes
That’s unfortunate. I would never do business with someone I know is participating in shady business practices.
1 Like
That was my thought. If there is no foal guarantee then sure mare owners will try to get what they can out of what they get (from the SO.).
1 Like
