Dutch harness horse drama. Update major mare/ foal neglect Nov 2023 post 1782 Update Kate Shearer responds post 1930 Nov 25/23

[Scribbler]

I live in proximity to some fairly remote ranch country and there are still a lot of pretty basic trail and using horses coming out of there. Also there are some commercial QH breeders up there who overbreed and then cull their young stock to the auctions up North. Several of my friends have gotten fairly nice QH youngsters with no papers that way.

In my general region QH are much easier to find and much cheaper than WB. Even a kind of mediocre WB carries a price premium over a TB, QH or Appendix of equal or even better quality. QH are I think the largest registry in North America.

As far as my comment on piggybacking. Quality WB breeding is driven by the European breeders that stand stallions and broodmares and are relentless about their lines over generations, and there are also big breeders doing this in North America as well. The existence of these high quality long term well thought out programs allows smaller breeders or ammies to buy sperm from excellent stallions that are the result of decades of effort, performance, evaluation, etc. It lets small breeders who aren’t in a position to run a full scale breeding operation and build a line over years and years to have access to quality sperm that they can mix and match with the mares available to them.

But if the European WB breeders hadn’t put almost 100 years into breeding modern sport horses, with rigorous selection criteria and state support and focus, those horses would not exist and none of us ammies or small scale breeders would have access to the AI sperm of such excellent horses. Because they wouldn’t exist.

[DownYonder]

Relax. I was curious about what kind of documentation the various registries require these days from its breeders in order to register a foal. I noted the info about KWPN since we are talking primarily about KWPN registered foals on this thread.

As mentioned, if the registries doesn’t care how the semen was obtained, or from whom, or whether there were contracts involved or not, then I don’t understand why it is a concern for anyone that the registry issues papers for those foals. The breeder is in compliance with the registry’s rules, so has every right to register foals with them. Now, if there was a contract involved with the semen sale and it contained a clause regarding usage, then yes, the breeder is ethically bound to adhere to that clause. But it is not really in the best interests of the registry’s bottom line to try to police such activities, so the onus falls on the seller to try to enforce his or her contracts. I do surmise, though, that the big stallion operations have custom sales contracts for the semen importers and that it is very likely those contracts do not contain any language about use or resale, etc. - in which case, both the importer and the breeder are good (i.e., no contracts have been broken).

[Edited for clarity.]

[DownYonder]

@Kasheare

That’s unfortunate. I would never do business with someone I know is participating in shady business practices.

Again - to whom are you referring? The breeders who resell their unused doses? If they bought them with no contract clause that precludes resale, then why do you consider it shady? Can’t you do the same with the doses you buy? IOW, since there is no contract, the doses are yours to use as you wish.

[Scribbler]

@DownYonder

@Kasheare

That’s unfortunate. I would never do business with someone I know is participating in shady business practices.

Again - to whom are you referring? The breeders who resell their unused doses? If they bought them with no contract clause that precludes resale, then why do you consider it shady? Can’t you do the same with the doses you buy? IOW, since there is no contract, the doses are yours to use as you wish.

Yes, exactly. Also if a vet is using one single sperm for IVF fertilization it seems wasteful to not use up the whole tube on other embryos. Especially since the catch rate is lowish.

[roseymare]

I think the whole ICSI is still a gray area though and one where contracts and the law and breed registry rules may not have caught up yet. . A bit like sharing your music collection with your best friend.

[Kasheare]

I would not do business with someone that knowingly had a contract on the semen and split it. But straws are straws and if they were allowed to be split etc then nonissue. Just like I will let friends buy like a single cut off straws I own. I have a large semen bank only because I’m slowly growing my breeding vision so producing 12-15 a year now

[DownYonder]

@Kasheare

I would not do business with someone that knowingly had a contract on the semen and split it. But straws are straws and if they were allowed to be split etc then nonissue. Just like I will let friends buy like a single cut off straws I own. I have a large semen bank only because I’m slowly growing my breeding vision so producing 12-15 a year now

I also would not want to do business with people if I knew for a fact that they were breaking their contract by splitting doses. I think it is very difficult to know that though, without asking them directly - and then I would be in the position of having to assume they were being truthful (or not). I am betting that most of them would claim that their contract doesn’t forbid splitting - or that they don’t have a contract at all that contains usage language.

Also (FWIW), I know a fair number of breeders who - like you - have built their own semen banks over the years. Many of them have their own storage tanks, and some folks have quite the collection. I think some of the “resales” happen because the breeder is running out of room in the tank but wants to purchase doses from additional stallions, so will offer the doses they know they will never use. Some of them will only sell full doses but others will sell by the straw - and it is between them and the buyer to uphold any contracts in place regarding usage (it depends on the language in the seller’s contract as to whether they have to pass forward the usage policy - and the contracts I have seen don’t contain those provisions).

At any rate, I find your business model interesting and is close to what I myself considered some years back (unfortunately life got in the way - career demands, elderly relatives who needed care, health issues, etc.) One of my biggest concerns was regarding unsold foals - once they reach 3 years of age and need to go into training, costs go up dramatically. I was going to try to circumvent that by keeping mares in Germany (where boarding/foal rearing/training is much, much less expensive than in the U.S.) , but the savings would have been offset somewhat by import costs. At any rate, I never got to implement my plan due to the other demands on my time, finances, and focus.

[Kasheare]

It doesn’t mean you could not look into doing it now? I have had two other breeding operations just purchase foals from me for their programs and now we are doing some other business things together. And a very reputable breeder in Canada and I split a lot of our expensive icsi straws and help each other out. So there is a way! Yes sometimes it is completely overwhelming, but exciting at the same time. I have been blessed to make so many amazing connections throughout my business so that I have great people to lean and rely on through this crazy mess. Of course it was frustrating my first two foal crops the keurings were cancelled, but still I am looking forward to 2023 with 10 due!

[DownYonder]

@Kasheare

It doesn’t mean you could not look into doing it now?

Nah, the calendar has flipped too many times since I considered doing it and I am not in any position age-wise or health-wise to embark on such a risky endeavor. The last thing I want to do is leave my beneficiaries with a bunch of mares, foals, and frozen semen to have to figure out what to do with!

[SillyHorse]

@anon68314200

God forbid you’re a working woman wearing flip-flops around horses.

Do you wear flip flops around horses?

[skydy]

@Kasheare

It doesn’t mean you could not look into doing it now? I have had two other breeding operations just purchase foals from me for their programs and now we are doing some other business things together. And a very reputable breeder in Canada and I split a lot of our expensive icsi straws and help each other out. So there is a way! Yes sometimes it is completely overwhelming, but exciting at the same time. I have been blessed to make so many amazing connections throughout my business so that I have great people to lean and rely on through this crazy mess. Of course it was frustrating my first two foal crops the keurings were cancelled, but still I am looking forward to 2023 with 10 due!

I wouldn’t count on getting any business from anyone here. I suppose it doesn’t hurt to try…

Breeding horses is an expensive endeavor. Making business deals with people, who are novices, and not well established breeders with excellent reputations, is a very risky business. Especially when only knowing their online presence.

Add in some very dubious online discourse, some neglected mares which are blamed on others, several questions regarding honesty that have not been answered in a straightforward manner, and that’s a hard no for most breeders that have quality programs.

[Scribbler]

I can’t quite see buying a foal in utero to use in a breeding program, or indeed a foal at all. Even if one wasn’t committed to putting a performance record in the breeding stock, I’d think you’d want to see adult confirmation, mind, and talent before adding it to a breeding program.

[enjoytheride]

While I don’t know how many breeding programs buy foals in utero I do know that it isn’t uncommon at all to have mares with no performance records but based on bloodlines. Spycoast is a major breeder and many of their broodmares do not have performance records. What Kasheare is doing in that aspect is not unusual at all.

[omare]

With respect to Warmbloods, it takes 10 years (?) to see what you have-as to whether truly FEI quality. No breeder unless already a multi-millionaire is going to be able to develop their mares produce to demonstrate that quality and the mare is likely to be very old by that time.(Can you image how many horses you would have and how broke you would be after even 5 years…?)

In contrast quarter horses/ranch horses and thoroughbreds have a much shorter time frame in which to demonstrate performance. However, I don’t think expecting a breeder to develop the produce is a “do-able” business model there either, nor followed for the most part unless you cannot sell (you end up keeping to race for example and likely don’t breed that mare back!) The advantage of the latter breeds is you find out what the mare is producing performance wise a lot quicker and can “cull” as needed. (Cull meaning stop breeding that mare.)
(Edited to add: Of course as others have pointed out, it also underlines the importance of increasing your chances for success and increasing the chances you know what you will get by breeding from a strong mare family.)

[Arlomine]

It’s really not that unusual.
Many very successful Warmblood breeders invest in mares either in utero or very young, based on pedigree.
To bring a dressage mare up to High Performance standards requires a huge investment in training and time, and takes away many years of potential productivity unless they are so phenomenal that they are kept in training and ET is used.

Performance testing as young horses in the KWP help identify exceptional mares at a young age, minus a show career.

So, really there are some extremely successful breeding systems where exceptional mirrors are purposefully retained from a very young age for breeding. This also happens consistently in the Iberian world. So much so, that it’s a relatively new thing for the Spanish/Portuguese to invest in training in their mares.

Historically, the best mares are retained for breeding purposes, not performance. This is changing, but it’s still more the norm to retain the best mares for breeding rather than performance.

[Kasheare]

Guess that’s just your program? Would love to see what you’re breeding. And it’s funny I’ve gotten many prospective buyers from this discourse lol

[skydy]

@Arlomine

Historically, the best mares are retained for breeding purposes, not performance. This is changing, but it’s still more the norm to retain the best mares for breeding rather than performance.

I remember one of the Holsteiner breeders here mentioning this many years ago. The Holsteiner studbook gives great credence to, and has been very cognizant of, their stamm lines. The very well bred, well conformed mares were kept for breeding.

Of course , that was only done after several generations of that mare line had been proven, over and over again.
The Holsteiner breeder that I am remembering was very knowledgeable and very generous with their experience.

I do miss some of the accomplished breeders that no longer participate here…

[DownYonder]

@skydy

@Arlomine

Historically, the best mares are retained for breeding purposes, not performance. This is changing, but it’s still more the norm to retain the best mares for breeding rather than performance.

I remember one of the Holsteiner breeders here mentioning this many years ago. The Holsteiner studbook gives great credence to, and has been very cognizant of, their stamm lines. The very well bred, well conformed mares were kept for breeding.

Of course , that was only done after several generations of that mare line had been proven, over and over again.
The Holsteiner breeder that I am remembering was very knowledgeable and very generous with their experience.

I do miss some of the accomplished breeders that no longer participate here…

This what I often heard when I traveled to Germany fairly frequently back in the very early 2000s. We went to a plethora of stallion stations, broodmare and foal raising operations, and some operations that specialized in starting young horses. I remember seeing a lovely 2 year filly by De Niro that I was interested in purchasing. When I mentioned that I was envisioning a riding career for her, the breeder said “No, she comes from a top dam line and is super high quality, so she must go into a breeding program.” She told me that she would consider selling a co-ownership but the filly had to remain in Germany for at least five years for breeding. I didn’t want her THAT badly - there were too many risks involved - so I passed.

Also, most of the breeding discussions on this forum have taken place on the Breeding forum as riders in general didn’t have much interest in the nitty-gritty of breeding issues. That has changed somewhat - as evidenced by this thread - as more people have become aware of the importance of bloodlines and sound breeding methodologies. However, as you mentioned, many breeders with good experience and knowledge no longer participate on this forum at all and have instead moved their discussions to various FB groups.

[fordtraktor]

“Breed the best, ride the rest” is the old adage.

[trubandloki]

@fordtraktor

“Breed the best, ride the rest” is the old adage.

How does one know they are the best if they are never ridden doing what they in theory do?