Dutch harness horse drama. Update major mare/ foal neglect Nov 2023 post 1782 Update Kate Shearer responds post 1930 Nov 25/23

[hut-ho78]

@vxf111

Animals lack free will/autonomy and don’t choose ANYTHING they do. This is a pretty inapt analogy. Mares don’t ever “choose” to get pregnant, regardless of the means by which they get pregnant and whose foal they carry. They get pregnant because we allow or cause it to happen.

Isn’t that the premise of the Handmaid’s Tale? They don’t have a choice?

In theory, I’m ok with harvesting eggs to get foals while competing the mom mare. I’ve only tried to breed one mare. She never was in foal or absorbed it. At least she got to fall in love and hang out with the stallion in a big field for a while. There are so many nice horses needing homes and raising babies can be such a gamble, I never tried again. Sometimes I regret it. Then I’ve always liked the horse I have so it’s all good.

[CanteringCarrot]

I mean, I do think the reasons are justifications. Bottom line is that you can call it “different value” but ultimately that recip mare has less value to you and you’d be more “ok” with losing the recip vs your mare. I think it’s natural to feel that way.

I also understand when one wants to keep a mare in work (especially at the upper levels of the sport) and not lose time due to pregnancy, foaling, nursing, etc.

Basically everything we do with horses is a selfish endeavor if you really get down to it. I acknowledge that in my day to day life with my horse.

[vxf111]

@hut-ho78

Isn’t that the premise of the Handmaid’s Tale? They don’t have a choice?

And the reason it’s terrible to force a human to be raped and have an unwanted pregnancy is because humans have free will/autonomy.

We don’t consider it rape to breed animals. We don’t consider them to have a choice in whether to be pregnant or not.

We don’t consider it kidnapping to take baby chicks. We do consider it kidnapping to steal baby humans.

We don’t consider it homicide to shoot and kill a dog. We do consider it homicide to shoot and kill a human.

The premise that matters for this analogy is whether there is free will/autonomy and a human being involved.

[vxf111]

I think, probably universally, all horses I do not own/lease/personally get to enjoy have less value for me than ones I own/lease/personally enjoy. I think I’m probably not alone in that feeling, right or wrong. If you gave me the trolley problem with my horse or a random horse, I’d save my horse and I think so would most everyone else.

Do you value the dam of your riding horse less than your riding horse? Probably (unless you own her). She could have died producing your riding horse. Is it really any different just because you didn’t create the breeding personally? Your market for a riding horse created the market that caused her to be bred. Either way she could have died.

[hut-ho78]

We don’t make it a crime for an animal to rape an animal. To me, it can still be rape. If a bull or stallion or rooster approaches a cow or mare or hen that is not receptive and forces the breeding that is still rape. Cow, cat, goat whatever the female should be receptive before things proceed. It’s pretty sickening to watch out in the pasture or barnyard. Yes, it is worse to pick up someone cared for at a hospital after being beaten and raped or sit with a friend who cries all night because her jerk of a boyfriend “forced” her.

However, when I tried to get my mare in foal, she was receptive, the stallion was experienced and patient, and my mare fell madly in love. So, sadly I did not get a foal even after she was hand bred (halters and kicking harness in a controlled environment and turned out in pasture for 30 days) but it was a good effort by all. Later, I bought another nice mare and much later another and another.

[vxf111]

This is some outside-the-range-of-generally-socially-accepted anthropomorphising but whatever floats your boat.

[Jenerationx]

What the heck kind of Disney movie fantasy land are you living in where animals fall in love before they breed?

[erinmeri]

@hut-ho78

We don’t make it a crime for an animal to rape an animal. To me, it can still be rape. If a bull or stallion or rooster approaches a cow or mare or hen that is not receptive and forces the breeding that is still rape. Cow, cat, goat whatever the female should be receptive before things proceed. It’s pretty sickening to watch out in the pasture or barnyard. Yes, it is worse to pick up someone cared for at a hospital after being beaten and raped or sit with a friend who cries all night because her jerk of a boyfriend “forced” her.

However, when I tried to get my mare in foal, she was receptive, the stallion was experienced and patient, and my mare fell madly in love. So, sadly I did not get a foal even after she was hand bred (halters and kicking harness in a controlled environment and turned out in pasture for 30 days) but it was a good effort by all. Later, I bought another nice mare and much later another and another.

This is a really bizarre take. And if you are so concerned with consent and rape, then I really question your behavior on other threads (involving an actual human rape victim).

[Jenerationx]

@erinmeri

This is a really bizarre take. And if you are so concerned with consent and rape, then I really question your behavior on other threads (involving an actual human rape victim).

Seriously!

[CanteringCarrot]

@vxf111

I think, probably universally, all horses I do not own/lease/personally get to enjoy have less value for me than ones I own/lease/personally enjoy. I think I’m probably not alone in that feeling, right or wrong. If you gave me the trolley problem with my horse or a random horse, I’d save my horse and I think so would most everyone else.

Do you value the dam of your riding horse less than your riding horse? Probably (unless you own her). She could have died producing your riding horse. Is it really any different just because you didn’t create the breeding personally? Your market for a riding horse created the market that caused her to be bred. Either way she could have died.

As I said, I think it’s natural to feel that way. It’s “normal” and yes, most everyone else would also save their horse, of course!

Yes it is a bit different and not a direct comparison. I think I’m being misunderstood here, but that’s alright. We can have differing thoughts and opinions.

[SoCoPony]

I wonder if they got to sit in an alley and share a plate of spaghetti before doing the you know
*wink * wink.

[erinmeri]

FWIW, I don’t think using a recip mare makes you callous. I would be very concerned for any mare that I bred, my own or a recip.

My mare has more value as a riding horse than a brood mare, and even if she had value as an egg donor that doesn’t mean she should necessarily carry a foal. (Not that my mare is breeding quality, as amazing as she is otherwise). That said, I would vastly prefer to use a recip if I did choose to breed her because she has more value as a mount, she has not to my knowledge carried a baby, she is older, she has known health issues that may make uneventful foaling difficult, and she is my heart. I would much prefer to use a recip with a track record of carrying pregnancies and delivering uneventfully, as opposed to putting my mare at risk.

That doesn’t make me callous, it makes me calculated.

Mare would strongly disagree. She wants a baby very badly (you should see the way she looks at foals!), and is extremely “receptive” to horses of all gender identities and sexual orientations.

[erinmeri]

@Bristol_Bay

@Moderator_1 seems to be asleep on the job.

This is wholly unnecessary. Whatever your feelings are about the image(s) posted, the mods here work hard and don’t have an easy job. And as much as I found the posting of that exchange disgusting (by the subject of this thread, not necessarily by the person who reposted it), it isn’t up to you to police others. If you dislike something, flag it. Don’t disparage others, especially the mods, while doing so.

[Bristol_Bay]

If you read the whole thread, I flagged that post yesterday. The braider came in to request help from the moderators in taking those screenshots down. Yesterday.

[CanteringCarrot]

@erinmeri

FWIW, I don’t think using a recip mare makes you callous. I would be very concerned for any mare that I bred, my own or a recip.

My mare has more value as a riding horse than a brood mare, and even if she had value as an egg donor that doesn’t mean she should necessarily carry a foal. (Not that my mare is breeding quality, as amazing as she is otherwise). That said, I would vastly prefer to use a recip if I did choose to breed her because she has more value as a mount, she has not to my knowledge carried a baby, she is older, she has known health issues that may make uneventful foaling difficult, and she is my heart. I would much prefer to use a recip with a track record of carrying pregnancies and delivering uneventfully, as opposed to putting my mare at risk.

That doesn’t make me callous, it makes me calculated.

Mare would strongly disagree. She wants a baby very badly (you should see the way she looks at foals!), and is extremely “receptive” to horses of all gender identities and sexual orientations.

I don’t think anyone threw around the word callous (it’s possible I missed it). I can understand your reasoning behind making the decision to use a recip (if you chose to).

[erinmeri]

@CanteringCarrot

I don’t think anyone threw around the word callous (it’s possible I missed it). I can understand your reasoning behind making the decision to use a recip (if you chose to).

That was my word, just trying to add my opinion for context.

[vxf111]

I hear you. We do a lot of selfish things for our animals at the expense of other animals. I don’t think being a recipient mare (from a reputable herd, that is well taken care of) is such a bad life.

[CanteringCarrot]

@vxf111

I hear you. We do a lot of selfish things for our animals at the expense of other animals. I don’t think being a recipient mare (from a reputable herd, that is well taken care of) is such a bad life.

Agreed.

[Mohan]

I’ve seen this take from peta before. I think they had an article or it was on the news. It was specifically addressing racing but yeah, they went to the whole breeding is rape thing.

[erinmeri]

@Mohan

I’ve seen this take from peta before. I think they had an article or it was on the news. It was specifically addressing racing but yeah, they went to the whole breeding is rape thing.

Dear lord, I thought you meant MY TAKE! Thank Baby Jesus I clicked up for context! Yep, it’s pretty bonkers!