Dutch harness horse drama. Update major mare/ foal neglect Nov 2023 post 1782 Update Kate Shearer responds post 1930 Nov 25/23

[Joanne]

@DownYonder

His dam’s maternal grandsire was Aktuell, who was registered NWP (Groningen). Aktuell’s sire was Holsteiner, SWB, and Trakehner but his damline was NWP.

Is there more than one Aktuell? The only Aktuell I know of is by Absatz.

edited to correct a spelling

[Scribbler]

@DownYonder

@SusanO

Totilas had old Gelderlander blood ,through his dam I believe,

It was Groningen (used primarily for light draft and agricultural work). His dam’s maternal grandsire was Aktuell, who was registered NWP (Groningen). Aktuell’s sire was Holsteiner, SWB, and Trakehner but his damline was NWP. And Totilas’s 3rd dam was also from an NWP damline.

Verdades’ dam had both Hackney and Gelderlander blood a few generations back. She was registered KWPN but I think those lines are essentially Dutch Harness Horse.

But the Groningen, Gelderlander, and DHH all fall under the KWPN umbrella these days. And they are considered Dutch Warmbloods because they certainly aren’t hotbloods nor are they coldbloods.

That makes sense, the horses are further back in the pedigree as the type evolved. I don’t think the top breeders are bringing in full Harness Horse crosses these days and hoping for an Olympic cross.

[SusanO]

Yes I stand corrected. I knew it was old blood but the Groningen horses were so heavy that I assumed it was Gelderlander.

And Verdades dam had multiple crosses to a hackney stallion ( I forget his name - Cambridge Cole?) that was pretty prevalent in DHH breeding. And yes all were KWPN.

[Ambitious_Kate]

@hut-ho78

Both Totilas and Verdades were Dutch harness and dressage crosses. I would think a lot of breeders are trying for a lucky nick. Schleese discusses horses backs changing as we breed more harness horses into the old cavalry standards for more power and movement in jumping and dressage and less stamina.

No they weren’t. You post made up stuff like it’s fact. What is wrong with you?

[Ambitious_Kate]

@SusanO

Verdades did have some DHH in his pedigree on his dam’s side.

That doesn’t make him a cross-bred

[DownYonder]

You are right. I had a brain skid while typing - it was Akteur.

[DownYonder]

@SusanO

And Verdades dam had multiple crosses to a hackney stallion ( I forget his name - Cambridge Cole?) that was pretty prevalent in DHH breeding. And yes all were KWPN.

Yes, the Hackney stallion Cambridge Cole is in on both sides of Verdades’ dam’s pedigree.

[DownYonder]

Yes, the Groningen were very heavy, whereas the Gelderlanders were a bit lighter in type. This horse is the preferent stallion Gambo. He was actually an Oldenburg-bred stallion, but he was used in Groningen breeding to preserve the heavy type (we are talking 1930s, 1940s). He had a tremendous impact on that studbook but also influenced the breeding of multi-purpose horses. I am not sure if he is in Totilas’ pedigree though - haven’t searched that far back.

[hut-ho78]

I love this thread when it gets into the details of breeding and different types. Thank y’all for sharing your knowledge.

[SillyHorse]

@DownYonder

Yes, the Groningen were very heavy, whereas the Gelderlanders were a bit lighter in type. This horse is the preferent stallion Gambo. He was actually an Oldenburg-bred stallion, but he was used in Groningen breeding to preserve the heavy type (we are talking 1930s, 1940s). He had a tremendous impact on that studbook but also influenced the breeding of multi-purpose horses. I am not sure if he is in Totilas’ pedigree though - haven’t searched that far back.

I wonder whether the artist exaggerated the short back. Otherwise,

[DownYonder]

@SillyHorse

@DownYonder

Yes, the Groningen were very heavy, whereas the Gelderlanders were a bit lighter in type. This horse is the preferent stallion Gambo. He was actually an Oldenburg-bred stallion, but he was used in Groningen breeding to preserve the heavy type (we are talking 1930s, 1940s). He had a tremendous impact on that studbook but also influenced the breeding of multi-purpose horses. I am not sure if he is in Totilas’ pedigree though - haven’t searched that far back.

I wonder whether the artist exaggerated the short back. Otherwise,

IIRC, that short back was part of the reason Gambo was desired in Groningen breeding - to improve the type while also preserving the “heavy” traits.

[Hankel]

So, unsure of how related to this thread this is, but there seems to be a good number of KWPN/DHH savvy people but does anyone have a list (at least better than KWPN-NA’s) of high % Gelder stallions or actual Gelder studs in the US/Canada? Or how to determine what percentage gelder in pedigree? I’m very interested but have limited information and unsure of which bloodlines are definitively Gelder. My understanding is quite a few DHH/harness type carry high % Gelder.

I guess the whole reason I got interested was my current mare. Shes a 3 yr old KWPN-NA Harness type and DHH registered, and THICK - she won me over with her type. She is harness bred, but has heaviness that is contradicted by her movement, she collects wonderfully so I bought her as my dressage horse to be. She seems thicker than other harness types though and I presume possibly due to some Gelder prevalence? Or is that just DHH in general? (Her sire is Windfall by Jonker, her dam is an ASB. She seems to be the spitting image of her sire though - just without the roadster trot). Most information I can readily find regarding DHH/KWPN/Gelder appears to be at least 10 years old.

[LookinForSpace]

@Hankel

So, unsure of how related to this thread this is,

For the record, you’ll probably get more responses by starting a new thread than by posting on a largely unrelated topic (aka “highjacking” a thread topic).

… your friendly, neighborhood PSA.

[trubandloki]

The Facebook thing about the wrong horse being braided and then how irrational Kate Shearer was is still going around. I saw it again yesterday on a different group.
The good side is that @haleybot is getting lots of compliments on her amazing braids.

[Warmblood1]

The DHH can have a lot of substance - I wouldn’t say a horse is necessarily higher Gelders blood because the horse is heavier. Windfall does carry some Gelders blood further back in the pedigree, however. I can’t think of a list of Gelders stallions outside of what the KWPN has and KWPN is my go to for tracking bloodlines but if you are interested in a point of contact for someone who is part of KWPN and who I consider an expert on Gelders blood, I can give you their info.

[MHM]

Wow, that’s kind of amazing, given the time lapse.

Where did it pop up now?

[trubandloki]

@MHM

Where did it pop up now?

I did not keep a screen shot of it and I do not remember, I just giggled when I saw it and moved on. Some other horse related group I belong to.

[Kasheare]

Absolutely loving the reading of this ridiculousness. Hey guys pop over to my fb to catch up on all things related to haleybot and others!

[fledermaus]

I think the barge pole metaphor applies here.

[skydy]

No thanks. Not interested.