Educate me on crossing full Saddlebred with Oldenburg breeding

[531]

A few days ago, on a Facebook group I belong to, a video of a nice looking colt was posted. Nice mover. So I started looking into his breeding. When I see a nice horse I often look into who mom and dad are for future reference.

I was surprised to see that the colt was out of a full saddlebred. The mare is “Approved: ISR/OLDna, RPSI” and the stallion is a registered Oldenburg. I haven’t seen a cross to a full saddlebred before.

Are there many breeders who are breeding full saddlebred crosses? If so what are the reasons? What would a breeder be looking to add with saddlebred blood? And what discipline would that breeder likely be marketing to?

Thanks for your thoughts!

[Spike]

Why don’t you ask Formossus. She posts on this board. She bred some very nice saddlebred mares to warmblood stallions and always got very good looking foals. I’m sure she will be happy to give you her toughts about it.

[springer]

Also ASBjumper who posts here. She has bred several and they are outstanding! I think there is alot of mis-information where is comes to ASBs.

[MysticOakRanch]

And realize that there was some Saddlebred blood bred into the Dutch Harness horses - it doesn’t always work, but when it does, I believe the goal was to add more front action. Many of the Saddlebreds have nice shoulders and lots of action, so if you can improve the hind end with the WB, you can end up with a very flashy horse.

Not all Saddlebreds are created equal;)

[531]

Thanks so much for the input so far, I’ve PM’d Formossus and ASBjumper, I was very impressed with the colt’s video and wanted to know more about the cross from a wider audience as I haven’t seen any in person and am unfamiliar and wanted to educate myself!

[echodecker]

I’m also interested in this…I don’t doubt the quality that the ASB are producing.

My question is how does an ASB mare become approved by the ISR/NA? From looking at their mare pages, Saddlebreds aren’t listed as an eligible bloodline/registry. So, how can a foal from an ASB mare by an approved ISR/NA stallion become a Premium ISR/NA foal?

Link: http://www.isroldenburg.org/?pid=mares_eligibility
At the bottom, there’s a section called “Approved Registries + Bloodlines”

Certainly not trying to stir any pots here, just genuinely curious. Would such a foal, if a filly, then be eligible for approval/breeding down the road?

Thanks!

[MysticOakRanch]

[QUOTE=echodecker;6664091]

My question is how does an ASB mare become approved by the ISR/NA? From looking at their mare pages, Saddlebreds aren’t listed as an eligible bloodline/registry. So, how can a foal from an ASB mare by an approved ISR/NA stallion become a Premium ISR/NA foal?

Link: http://www.isroldenburg.org/?pid=mares_eligibility
At the bottom, there’s a section called “Approved Registries + Bloodlines”

Certainly not trying to stir any pots here, just genuinely curious. Would such a foal, if a filly, then be eligible for approval/breeding down the road?

Thanks![/QUOTE]

ISR wil approve anything - it is no different then RPSI or AWS. And the ISR foal can be a premium.

I should clarify - Old/ISR is kind of split into two registries - Oldenburg and International Sporthorse Registry. Oldenburg requires both mares and stallions be within certain Warmblood lines. ISR allows the mares to be anything - as long as the stallion is registered and approved Old/ISR. The foals are all presented at the same time, but the ISR gets a different brand then the Old, and they are in different “books”. But premiums are still awarded to the foals, irregardless of whether they are Old or ISR. I’ve seen Arabs, Paints, QHs, grade mares all go through and get approval from ISR.

RPSI is basically the same, they also use different books and a different brand.

AWS uses different “books” as well.

Most Warmblood registries are really not ‘pure breed’ registries, they document bloodlines and focus on performance.

[netg]

[QUOTE=echodecker;6664091]
I’m also interested in this…I don’t doubt the quality that the ASB are producing.

My question is how does an ASB mare become approved by the ISR/NA? From looking at their mare pages, Saddlebreds aren’t listed as an eligible bloodline/registry. So, how can a foal from an ASB mare by an approved ISR/NA stallion become a Premium ISR/NA foal?

Link: http://www.isroldenburg.org/?pid=mares_eligibility
At the bottom, there’s a section called “Approved Registries + Bloodlines”

Certainly not trying to stir any pots here, just genuinely curious. Would such a foal, if a filly, then be eligible for approval/breeding down the road?

Thanks![/QUOTE]

As MOR said, ISR will approve anything. Whether the mare will be ISR Pre-Mare Book or Mare Book depends on % TB blood, since TB is approved bloodlines. If someone just said Oldenburg (I always assume OldNA if someone doesn’t say GOV) then they would have been mistaken.

Good quality Saddlebreds will have a very uphill nature and very active hind ends. They can refine well without reducing the power of a heavier warmblood and help add activity in back as well if the WB is more of a heavy, powerful but toe-dragging type. Saddlebreds tend to have less mobile backs so that’s where the WB can help. They also tend to have great temperaments and a lot of trainability, though not for everyone of course.

I know some breeders use saddlebreds whose bloodlines they know inside and out, and they go for the best of those specific lines, not because they’re saddlebreds but because they’re qualities they want from those specific horses.

[columbus]

There are Saddlebreds and there are Saddlebreds

If you sort through the mares available in any breed you will find mares who are sport horses and non sport horses. There are MANY fewer sport horses Saddlebred types than there used to be but they are out there even still. The problems using Saddlebreds that are not sport horse type is the same as any non sport type mare fom any breed. The mare is MORE than 50% of the final picture. You don’t get a 50/50 split of the charecteristics…you get a 50/50 split of the genetics but you can end up with just as or more prepotent a Saddlebred as a warmblood stallion and the positive charecteristics can contribute to a positive result or the negative charecteristics really truely mess you up.

If you have 10 mares you can have 1 great foal with the best of both and 9 where the mix is not so good and a range in between. Bad traits are genetic sway back, zero width of chest, knock kneed, toes out, very long weak loined back and then charecteristics that are wanted in a Saddlebred like a long narrow head with a snorty roley looking eye, straight walled feet so you can lengthen the foot etc. They are not traits appreciated in warmbloods. If you have a true sport type mare and you know the produce of the dam and know the produce of the sire you have a better chance of predicting the offspring.

What is interesting is that dressage warmbloods at the top of performance have an increasing amount of snort and action…Saddlebreds have snort and action maybe you will win in the cross. If you love the look and mind of Saddlebreds…I loved the Saddlebreds of the 60s and before…then I think buying a cross would be a better idea than gambling on the cross as a breeder but that is usually the case with outcrosses. PatO

[silvia]

We are dedicated Saddlebred breeders taking lines to produce dressage horses and eventers. I’ve been breeding now for about a decade and could say the lure of using Saddlebred is that they are a hot blooded breed that performs as an excellent refiner. They are really nice horses to work with.

Our ‘test subject’ is a two year old purebred Saddlebred filly (Fame’s Nitro/I Ring Bells/Wildmoor’s Buccaneer) that we bred for dressage; she has received good scores and comments which is very encouraging. She is being bred to Regal Poetry in Motion (Pommery/Salute/Donnerall) and we’ll see how it turns out.

[Dance_To_Oblivion]

I have one, he is five and we evented Novice this year and will move up to Training in the spring. He is a gorgeous jumper and a lovely uphill mover. He has a wonderful temperament and is easy easy to work with. Highly recommend the cross.

[Marla_100]

I shopped and shopped for a Saddlebred cross that I could play around with dressage- couldn’t find too many out there. As others have said, sometimes you get a mix of the good and bad parts comformationally speaking.

I was looking for the mind and front end of a saddlebred with the hind end and back of a warmblood. No luck in finding that.

[silvia]

[QUOTE=Marla 100;6666001]
I shopped and shopped for a Saddlebred cross that I could play around with dressage- couldn’t find too many out there. As others have said, sometimes you get a mix of the good and bad parts comformationally speaking.

I was looking for the mind and front end of a saddlebred with the hind end and back of a warmblood. No luck in finding that.[/QUOTE]

I understand what you’re trying to look for, but I’m not sure that as a breeder that would be a suitable result. Saddlebreds have a different shape because they’re built to ride and drive, and under saddle they are built to be multi-discipline and multi-gaited.

They are hotbloods with no draught breeding. Their movement and action comes from being built light and agile. The shoulder structure is different, and the back is different as well, with their wither being extraordinarily long and well into the back past the shoulder.

Basically the Saddlebred works by being a lithe beast, put a lot of bulk on it and you lose the magic, unless you can get lucky and compensate somehow with the right stallion. Even the stallion we are breeding to (Warmblood) is very modern and similar fronted so we keep it light. The Friesian cross works because they have similar conformation and front especially the more modern type, just more bone/heavier movement.

So if you’re going to look for the cross look for something with modern light Warmblood and you might have more luck; I would personally avoid anything that looked too heavy. having said that, I am sure now someone will prove me wrong by producing a sensational heavy type cross

[Hawkridge]

[QUOTE=Marla 100;6666001]
I shopped and shopped for a Saddlebred cross that I could play around with dressage- couldn’t find too many out there. As others have said, sometimes you get a mix of the good and bad parts comformationally speaking.

I was looking for the mind and front end of a saddlebred with the hind end and back of a warmblood. No luck in finding that.[/QUOTE]

http://www.warmbloods-for-sale.com/HorseDetail.asp?HorseID=33774&UserID=13482 :yes:

[Renae]

The Dutch have used Saddlebreds in their Dutch Harness Horse breeding program, and a few that have not made it as Harness Horses have “leaked” into the dressage and jumper rings.

In 2008 a 1/2 Saddlebred stallion made it to the performance test for Dutch Harness Horse stallions in Holland. JZ Lightning is his name. Here is a photo of him as a 3 year old http://www.tuigpaarden.net/bestanden/hk_tuigpaarden_denbosch_ids_03_08.pdf The text says he has a good front end but his throatlatch could be finer and croup is somewhat flat. He has good bone in his legs and his hooves are well developed. The trot has good attitude and hind end usage and foreleg is enough. This is his pedigree http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/pedigree/405395

These are the 2 Saddlebreds most used by the Dutch:

Holland’s Golden Boy
http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/pedigree/405395
http://hengsten.kwpn.nl/openbaar/abonnees/details.asp?onderdeel=algemeen&lang=uk&knpnr=H0000003457
Much of his popularity has to do with the fact that he is palomino. Several of his offspring and further descendants went on to be jumpers or dressage horses. He had 2 KWPN approved sons, Kentuckyboy and Modern. He appears in the extended pedigree of Cream On Top http://www.creamontop.nl/, Allegria of ESBI http://www.eurodressage.com/equestrian/2010/12/08/two-dressage-stallions-licensed-2010-aes-stallion-licensing, and Zion-JC http://kwpn-na.org/stallions/details.php?unid=494&catid=33

Immigrant
http://www.horsetelex.com//horses/pedigree/14937
http://hengsten.kwpn.nl/openbaar/abonnees/details.asp?onderdeel=algemeen&lang=uk&knpnr=H0000003315
http://www.hbcstal.nl/index.php?core[navigationitemid]=1016&catalog[1][view]=item-detail&catalog[1][item]=53&catalog[1][category]=4&catalog[1][template]=4
This is truly a very well bred stallion who would have been a successful Saddlebred breeding stallion had he stayed in America. He sired the KWPN approved sons Majesteit (who is now in America) and Marvel http://www.hbcstal.nl/index.php?core[navigationitemid]=1016&catalog[1][view]=item-detail&catalog[1][item]=8&catalog[1][category]=4&catalog[1][template]=4, and is dam-sire to the approved stallion Tempelier. You do see some of his further descedents doing dressage or being used for dressage breeding, such as these mares Waroniem http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ckn39SrKIRc and Zeleen http://www.melissen.nl/nl/photos/search?q=zeleen&x=11&y=7 both granddaughters.

[Renae]

Several Dutch Harness Horse breeders in Holland are experimenting with breeding their mares to Sir William Robert. 2 Sir William Robert sons took part in the keuring process this year.
http://www.willowbankfarm.com/sir_william_robert.asp

In Holland they also have the 1/2 Saddlebred stallion A New Day
http://www.horsetelex.com//horses/pedigree/392738
This article says that his owners are using him for breeding despite the fact that he was not approved by the KWPN and they are showing him http://www.tuigpaarden.net/nieuws_detail.php?item=117&jaar=2008

[silvia]

[QUOTE=Renae;6668598]
Several Dutch Harness Horse breeders in Holland are experimenting with breeding their mares to Sir William Robert. 2 Sir William Robert sons took part in the keuring process this year.
http://www.willowbankfarm.com/sir_william_robert.asp

In Holland they also have the 1/2 Saddlebred stallion A New Day
http://www.horsetelex.com//horses/pedigree/392738
This article says that his owners are using him for breeding despite the fact that he was not approved by the KWPN and they are showing him http://www.tuigpaarden.net/nieuws_detail.php?item=117&jaar=2008[/QUOTE]

I absolutely love how sensations the DDHs are - however I have to say from the videos I have seen, there is definitely a major focus on the TROT, you don’t really get to see sales videos where you can see walk and canter, let alone if they are of any quality.

The concern for me is it’s easy to work on the trot, but if there is no focus on the walk and canter then it is a fair bit harder if you’re planning to breed for dressage.

When shopping it was an absolute bear to find colts with video of walk and canter.

I know this kind of breeding and cross has been successful in dressage, but I think you’d want to be careful to know what the breeder was trying to achieve, or just hope to get lucky when shopping

[Renae]

Silvia I was just showing some of the cross breeding that has been done in Europe with Saddlebreds. The base of the Dutch Harness Horse breed is the Gelderlander, it gives people an idea of how a Saddlebred crosses with a traditional European type. All of the negative things you are pointing out about Dutch Harness Horses I have also heard people say about Saddlebreds over and over again.

[acottongim]

[QUOTE=Dance_To_Oblivion;6664858]
I have one, he is five and we evented Novice this year and will move up to Training in the spring. He is a gorgeous jumper and a lovely uphill mover. He has a wonderful temperament and is easy easy to work with. Highly recommend the cross.[/QUOTE]

I’ll vouch for this one - I"ve seen him in person competing. If you didn’t “know” that he had Saddlebred you wouldn’t guess it at first glance. Lovely mover, lovely jumper, bold, good action but not too much and fantastic temperament. He’s going to go places :). Back in the early 90’s there was a saddlebred that competed in Jacksonville area in hunters and did pretty well believe it or not.

[silvia]

[QUOTE=Renae;6673505]
Silvia I was just showing some of the cross breeding that has been done in Europe with Saddlebreds. The base of the Dutch Harness Horse breed is the Gelderlander, it gives people an idea of how a Saddlebred crosses with a traditional European type. All of the negative things you are pointing out about Dutch Harness Horses I have also heard people say about Saddlebreds over and over again.[/QUOTE]

Sorry if they seemed negative, just my observations. The Saddlebreds get just as much from me in that regard as the DHH do - it took me years to pick out a colt to import because it seemed every single photo and video only ever showed the trot. Yes they have fabulous trots Just need to see the rest!