Endurance Saddle advice please

[Guilherme]

gothedistance you are quite right; I think the “treeless” saddles as marketed to the general public are monstrously bad ideas. That the concept might work in very narrow circumstances is quite possible. The TB jockey saddle is one example. Of course when was the last time you saw a TB jockey saddle on a 50 miler?

I don’t do endurance riding. But that does not make me “chopped liver” when it comes to evaluating the physics of the treeless saddle. Or noting the extreme complexity people engage in to make it “work.” Which, from some posting right here, it doesn’t in at least some cases.

So I will, from time to time, add my dissonant voice.

G.

[Kitt]

[QUOTE=chicamux;7308605]
A typical “treed” saddle is rigid, your horses back isn’t. The saddle that appears to be a good fit for the stationary horse doesn’t fit that horses back as they raise their back or lower their head or bend their body. You can spend money over and over again having you saddle reflocked and customized and possibly screwed up with $$ flushed down the toilet. They your horse looses weight or gain muscle mass and the saddle doesn’t fit any more. You have two horses and each needs their own saddle. Yadda yadda. [/QUOTE]

Active fit is the key here, whether you’re talking about treed or treeless. What looks great when your horse is standing still can be a nightmare with rider up and horse moving, and what looks pretty “meh” in the crossties can turn out to be THE saddle under real-time conditions. That’s why I always go on about “Don’t buy it if you can’t try it.”

It’s also why it’s vital to work with a good fitter. Treed or treeless, a saddle needs to have the correct features for the individual horse and rider, and needs to be fitted (either with flocking or pads). For treeless saddles, it’s hard to go wrong with Abby at www.saddlingsolutions.com. For treed saddles, I’ll repeat my recommendation of Nancy Okun.

And re: the Duett Tango: the hoop tree in this saddle gives it a wide twist, and the straighter flaps can make that uncomfortable for a lot of people. It’s also an Argentine-made saddle; good value for the money and good fit for the wider horses, but it won’t have the cushy feel of a UK-made saddle.

[californianinkansas]

[QUOTE=Guilherme;7304006]

[QUOTE=sbwinde;7303534]

What you’re describing is the classic pattern of failure to effectively distribute weight.

But, let’s be positive.

There’s an entire class of saddles out there designed to carry 250-300 pounds, 35 miles a day, each and every day, for 5-7 days. I’m speaking of cavalry saddles.

The U.S. Cavalry used the McClellan from 1859-1948. I personally don’t like it but it is very light in weight and works very well as an edurance saddle. The seat is hard, but if get the Officer’s version they are more comfortable.

Or you can look for a Grimsley Dragoon saddle. These were used immediately before the Mac. Very comfortable and were used by a lot officers curing the ACW.

Then there’s the British Universal Pattern (UP). The Model 1902 is still in use by the Household Cavalry. A flexible tree version was tried in 1912 but was not really very successful and was abandoned.

More difficult to find is the M1936 Phillips saddle. This was the last, official Army saddle. Comes in one size (because by then Army Remounts came in one size). I like it better than the Mac but only slightly.

I ride a Stubben Scout. It’s a 1948 design for the Belgian Army and Police. It carries my larger than it should be butt comfortably for me. My horse has never had a sore back. Not cheap, but quality doesn’t cost, it pays. And no vet bills.

Recently I acquired a British Yeomanry saddle (also called a Staff or Colonial saddle). The UP is a “sling seat” design and really can haul a load. The Yeomanry saddle is a modified foxhunting saddle. The bars are wider and extend past the cantle. I’ve not had that much time in it but it fits the horse quite well.

I know some folks who really like the German Armeesattle Model 1925. I’ve not ridden one but a good friend of mine has one. He swears by it.

There are others, but this should give you a start.

If you go this route, pick a reproduction of saddles before 1900. Horses in those days tended to be somewhat narrower and you can create problems for yourself with them. After 1900 you’ll find wider trees. The later you go in the 20th Century the wider they get. The Armeesattle fit the Trakhenners and Holsteiners that were common in the German Army. The Yeomanry saddle does well on the TB type horse (but fits my Marchador just as well).

Treeless seems to me to be a recipe for causing horses problems. There are better alternatives. Seek them out.

G.[/QUOTE]

Guileherme,
If you are ever near Fort Riley, you might want to stop by the post museum. It has a lovely display about the evolution of US cavlary saddles and tack.

Anywhoodle, I’ve read Dr. Deb’s book Conquerors; I frequently see the mounted color guard ride in the repo cavalry tack. Is there a repo cav saddle that works well for the female pelvic bone structure? And/or one that works for oil-barrel Arabians?

My understading is that the McClellan saddles work great with the male pelvic bone structure -not so much the female’s. I know that Arabians were a part of the cav’s inventory until the end, so they must have had saddles to fit these types of horses.

The saddle that I’ve been drooling over the most is the Heraldic endurance saddle by ReactorPanel. http://www.reactorpanel.com/RPstore/product.php?productid=166&cat=1&page=1

It appears to be based off the classic cav “template.” What are your thoughts? Have any of the posters here ridden in one? It’s a pricey saddle, but I’m willing to save up if the design is worth it.

Thank you for your time and guidance.
V/R,
Amber

[Guilherme]

[QUOTE=californianinkansas;7403703]

[QUOTE=Guilherme;7304006]

Guileherme,
If you are ever near Fort Riley, you might want to stop by the post museum. It has a lovely display about the evolution of US cavlary saddles and tack.

Anywhoodle, I’ve read Dr. Deb’s book Conquerors; I frequently see the mounted color guard ride in the repo cavalry tack. Is there a repo cav saddle that works well for the female pelvic bone structure? And/or one that works for oil-barrel Arabians?

My understading is that the McClellan saddles work great with the male pelvic bone structure -not so much the female’s. I know that Arabians were a part of the cav’s inventory until the end, so they must have had saddles to fit these types of horses.

The saddle that I’ve been drooling over the most is the Heraldic endurance saddle by ReactorPanel. http://www.reactorpanel.com/RPstore/product.php?productid=166&cat=1&page=1

It appears to be based off the classic cav “template.” What are your thoughts? Have any of the posters here ridden in one? It’s a pricey saddle, but I’m willing to save up if the design is worth it.

Thank you for your time and guidance.
V/R,
Amber[/QUOTE]

I’m on the BofD for the U.S. Cav. Assn. so I make it to Ft. Riley at least one a year! The Cav. Museum there is excellent. The Cav. Assn. has a number of interesting saddles in its historical collection. I’d say it parallels the Museum and the Museum items are in better condition and better displayed. Some of ours have more interesting “provenance” however. And you can touch them!!!

Regarding historical saddles, the Mac has been around since 1859. I don’t think there was much change in the tree. When the Remount Service was founded in 1908 they chose the TB-type horse as the desired remount. This was not without controversy (in those days you could start a good fist fight in the Officer’s Mess over the “best” type of cavalry horse).

Much is made of the presence of Morgans and Arabians, but they were a tiny minority compared to the TBs. It would appear that most of the Arabian stallions in the Remount Service came from Dr. Kellogg’s gift of his Arabian Stud at Pomona, CA. He gave it to the U. of CA in 1932 and the Army took it over in 1943 as the Pomona Remount Depot. This was in the deep twilight of the U.S. Cavalry and had no real impact on the Army’s horse type.

There was a competition in the early '20s and the Arabian horse did quite well, but by then the Army was deeply committed to the TB-type horse and, given low budgets, they decided not to change.

Many individual officers rode Arabians. An officer could provide his own mount (and tack and weapons) if he choose to do so. Many did. They did have to meet the general Army standard. Maj. Frank Thompkins (who wrote the very excellent book Chasing Villa) was a fan of the Arabian horse.

I’m not an expert on Macs. I don’t know if the tree works better for men than women. There is a significant different in pelvic conformation so it might be true that Macs work better for men. I know some women who ride Macs but I’ve never asked this question. One lady I know rides an M1936 Phillips Officer Saddle and loves it death. I tried it and it wasn’t for me.

For a real, honest opinion from a genuine expert contact Mr. Doug Kidd of Border States Leather. He is in the top tier saddlers who make reproduction Macs. You will likely be better off with a repro and an original for real, field service.

I’ve just a acquired a British 1903 pattern Yeomanry Saddle (sometimes called a Colonial or Staff Officer’s Saddle). It is much more substantial than the Mac (and also much more comfortable for me). I’ll use it for show but will stick with my Stubben Scout for daily work.

The Heraldic saddle looks interesting but I’d want to put my hands on one before I committed that much money. It’s really rather different from a Mac. It’s much closer to a European army saddle, such as the Armesattle25 shown here:

http://www.ebay.de/itm/Wanderreitsattel-Pfiff-Trooper-ca-17-5-Zoll-braun-super-bequem-/131090622007?clk_rvr_id=580035193490

You might also consider a British Universal Pattern saddle. They are heavier and you have less contact but they are very well designed to distribute weight. Here is an example: https://www.google.com/search?q=British+1903+Universal+pattern+saddle&rlz=2C2OPRB_enUS0537US0537&tbm=isch&imgil=E_Ud4UCcUAQfjM%3A%3Bhttps%3A%2F%2Fencrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com%2Fimages%3Fq%3Dtbn%3AANd9GcSbDhDXMsP4Jje8awssu9fhZiE5qb6PU5OVSCfzWEfW1BafPBx9%3B300%3B223%3B_pHtgRF-V_hUlM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.homefrontfriends.org.uk%252Fwwihorse%252Fwwihorsetr%252Fpage4.html&source=iu&usg=__zavRUE6ha9xeKjsAEY191PJWFWE%3D&sa=X&ei=e8zqUvbPA4b6kQeFu4CICg&ved=0CGsQ9QEwCw&biw=1120&bih=616#facrc=&imgdii=&imgrc=E_Ud4UCcUAQfjM%253A%3B_pHtgRF-V_hUlM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.homefrontfriends.org.uk%252Fwwihorse%252Fwwihorsetr%252Fimg9.gif%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.homefrontfriends.org.uk%252Fwwihorse%252Fwwihorsetr%252Fpage4.html%3B300%3B223

You can also find saddles of this era from France, Italy, Belgium, etc. Many are quite well designed.

Good luck in your search!

G.

[californianinkansas]

[QUOTE=Guilherme;7404189]

[QUOTE=californianinkansas;7403703]

I’m on the BofD for the U.S. Cav. Assn. so I make it to Ft. Riley at least one a year! The Cav. Museum there is excellent. The Cav. Assn. has a number of interesting saddles in its historical collection. I’d say it parallels the Museum and the Museum items are in better condition and better displayed. Some of ours have more interesting “provenance” however. And you can touch them!!!

Regarding historical saddles, the Mac has been around since 1859. I don’t think there was much change in the tree. When the Remount Service was founded in 1908 they chose the TB-type horse as the desired remount. This was not without controversy (in those days you could start a good fist fight in the Officer’s Mess over the “best” type of cavalry horse).

Much is made of the presence of Morgans and Arabians, but they were a tiny minority compared to the TBs. It would appear that most of the Arabian stallions in the Remount Service came from Dr. Kellogg’s gift of his Arabian Stud at Pomona, CA. He gave it to the U. of CA in 1932 and the Army took it over in 1943 as the Pomona Remount Depot. This was in the deep twilight of the U.S. Cavalry and had no real impact on the Army’s horse type.

There was a competition in the early '20s and the Arabian horse did quite well, but by then the Army was deeply committed to the TB-type horse and, given low budgets, they decided not to change.

Many individual officers rode Arabians. An officer could provide his own mount (and tack and weapons) if he choose to do so. Many did. They did have to meet the general Army standard. Maj. Frank Thompkins (who wrote the very excellent book Chasing Villa) was a fan of the Arabian horse.

I’m not an expert on Macs. I don’t know if the tree works better for men than women. There is a significant different in pelvic conformation so it might be true that Macs work better for men. I know some women who ride Macs but I’ve never asked this question. One lady I know rides an M1936 Phillips Officer Saddle and loves it death. I tried it and it wasn’t for me.

For a real, honest opinion from a genuine expert contact Mr. Doug Kidd of Border States Leather. He is in the top tier saddlers who make reproduction Macs. You will likely be better off with a repro and an original for real, field service.

I’ve just a acquired a British 1903 pattern Yeomanry Saddle (sometimes called a Colonial or Staff Officer’s Saddle). It is much more substantial than the Mac (and also much more comfortable for me). I’ll use it for show but will stick with my Stubben Scout for daily work.

The Heraldic saddle looks interesting but I’d want to put my hands on one before I committed that much money. It’s really rather different from a Mac. It’s much closer to a European army saddle, such as the Armesattle25 shown here:

http://www.ebay.de/itm/Wanderreitsattel-Pfiff-Trooper-ca-17-5-Zoll-braun-super-bequem-/131090622007?clk_rvr_id=580035193490

You might also consider a British Universal Pattern saddle. They are heavier and you have less contact but they are very well designed to distribute weight. Here is an example: https://www.google.com/search?q=British+1903+Universal+pattern+saddle&rlz=2C2OPRB_enUS0537US0537&tbm=isch&imgil=E_Ud4UCcUAQfjM%3A%3Bhttps%3A%2F%2Fencrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com%2Fimages%3Fq%3Dtbn%3AANd9GcSbDhDXMsP4Jje8awssu9fhZiE5qb6PU5OVSCfzWEfW1BafPBx9%3B300%3B223%3B_pHtgRF-V_hUlM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.homefrontfriends.org.uk%252Fwwihorse%252Fwwihorsetr%252Fpage4.html&source=iu&usg=__zavRUE6ha9xeKjsAEY191PJWFWE%3D&sa=X&ei=e8zqUvbPA4b6kQeFu4CICg&ved=0CGsQ9QEwCw&biw=1120&bih=616#facrc=&imgdii=&imgrc=E_Ud4UCcUAQfjM%253A%3B_pHtgRF-V_hUlM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.homefrontfriends.org.uk%252Fwwihorse%252Fwwihorsetr%252Fimg9.gif%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.homefrontfriends.org.uk%252Fwwihorse%252Fwwihorsetr%252Fpage4.html%3B300%3B223

You can also find saddles of this era from France, Italy, Belgium, etc. Many are quite well designed.

Good luck in your search!

G.[/QUOTE]

I used the names of the saddles that you’ve listed as a Google search -the results were fascinating. There really is nothing new under the sun. The materials have changed with the times, but that appears to be about it. Lots of food for thought here.

Note (so I don’t get clobbered by my fellow COTH-ers): This does not apply to every modern saddle in existence. I am in no way intending to disparage anyone’s very favorite saddle. Each horse and rider pair is unique. YMMV.

[Guilherme]

[QUOTE=californianinkansas;7404216]

[QUOTE=Guilherme;7404189]

I used the names of the saddles that you’ve listed as a Google search -the results were fascinating. There really is nothing new under the sun. The materials have changed with the times, but that appears to be about it. Lots of food for thought here.

Note (so I don’t get clobbered by my fellow COTH-ers): This does not apply to every modern saddle in existence. I am in no way intending to disparage anyone’s very favorite saddle. Each horse and rider pair is unique. YMMV.[/QUOTE]

Some of us believe that the Golden Age of Equitation runs from roughly the end of the Spanish-American War to shortly after 1948 (when the operational horse cavalry disappeared from most Western armies). By then the horse had lost its job in the First World. The transition from working animal to pampered pet has not been good for either horse or rider.

The last real combat units were dragoons used by Portugal and Rhodesia in the '70s. I correspond with two fellows from the Grey’s Scouts, a Rhodesian Army unit prior to the current regime. They were very effective and very much feared by the insurgent forces. The Grey’s used the Mac as it was very light in weight and easy to obtain (Rhodesia was hampered by some pretty severe economic sanctions).

In the early period of the war in Afghanistan U.S. Special Forces were mounted on local horses on many occasions. In some places it’s still a very practical method of transportation. Their tack was a real mixed bag of Macs, Aussies, and Western saddles.

There are a few countries that maintained mounted military formations, even unto today. North Korea, China, Chile, Argentina, and Honduras come to mind. In most other countries if there is a mounted presence at all it is purely ceremonial (like the Horse Guards in London).

Military saddles make excellent endurance saddles in many cases because cavalry service often required multi-day operations where the trooper was astride covering 25-40 miles/day. The field load would run 250-300 lbs. depending on time, place, and mission.

G.

[californianinkansas]

Guilherme,
Luckily, today is a Division training holiday. I’m going to be spending my entire day between cases Googling all of the fascinating new terms and tack that you just mentioned. You are a terrible enabler.

I was Googling last night, too. I kind of fell in love with the German M25 saddle. I also learned that you have to be VERY careful with search engine terms when looking for German cavalry saddlery.

So the Golden Age ends roughly when the common use of the automatic release died out, with the caveat that corelation is not causation.

This is the saddle that I’m most likely going to end up with. I’ve found a good deal on a demo saddle. I’m expecting big changes in my horse’s back as I start him under saddle. http://www.reactorpanel.com/RPstore/product.php?productid=10&cat=1&page=3

This is what I’m presently riding in until I get my tax returns back:
http://www.aussiesaddle.com/Products/Saddle/bareback_Saddles.html
It is at the bottom of the page: The Hun Bareback Pad with Stirrups. Under that I’m using the Sheepskin Lined Equalizer pad: http://www.aussiesaddle.com/Products/Saddle/blankets_and_saddle_pads.html

Best,
Amber