Endurance Saddle advice please

So I know this topic is always beat to death, but, I could really use some advice. I have been lookinga t getting a new (to me) endurance saddle. I have narrowed my list to the following. I have a very thin straight backed 4 year old arab mare, who is getting white hairs from our current setup with which is DIxie Midnight, Skito pad and aBob Marshall trail saddle.

Im looking at:
-Black forest Aspen or Ponderosa
-Liberty (which I am unable to find anywhere really),

  • Barefoot Tahoe, Arizona or Cheyenne (she likes to spook occasionally, so I need something to hold me in)
  • The Abetta Arabian sounded kind of cool as well.
  • And possibly Wintec

Does anybody have experience with these? I am stumped as to whether I should go back to a tree, or bulk up padding, or try a new saddle- either way, we do endurance, so I think it would be nice to have a couple of saddles to switch between - or just sell my BM trail saddle.

Please help- the research is driving me bonkers!
It seems like Black Forest has a lot of info and research on their wenbsite which makes me beleive that they have done a ton of research on their saddles. I cant remember which one, but some had adjustable stirrup positions which I thought was pretty cool.

Thanks in advance!!

I have both a Black Forest Aspen and a Barefoot Tahoe- They are essentially the same saddle. I got the Aspen first and would have gotten a second one as opposed to the Tahoe but Black Forest’s customer service is awful and I decided that I didn’t want to buy from them again.
Both saddles are very, very comfy and super secure- I’ve ridden out some nasty bucking fits in them and never felt unbalanced. I’ve done an LD and some CTRs in the Apsen and ridden as long as 11 hours out on the trail in it.

I have a Thorowgood endurance that I find very comfortable and have ridden out some big spooks in it. Haslows (sp?) in Pa sells them

Just a couple of thoughts: I’m not a fan of treeless saddles for long distances (but won’t argue with anyone about it either) and it sounds as if that’s what you want. Please work with an experienced fitter - just because a saddle is treeless doesn’t mean you should skip the professional help. You seem to have issues already (pressure points!) and the horse is so young, you need to take extra care not to hurt her back.

And speaking of age, you can’t really do Endurance (50 miles or more) until your horse is 5 so I assume you’ve been riding LDs, or maybe have a different horse? Please take it really easy with the young one (especially since you haven’t figured out your equipment) so she can last a long time. This is a hard sport.

[QUOTE=Lieselotte;7303208]
Just a couple of thoughts: I’m not a fan of treeless saddles for long distances (but won’t argue with anyone about it either) and it sounds as if that’s what you want. Please work with an experienced fitter - just because a saddle is treeless doesn’t mean you should skip the professional help. You seem to have issues already (pressure points!) and the horse is so young, you need to take extra care not to hurt her back.

And speaking of age, you can’t really do Endurance (50 miles or more) until your horse is 5 so I assume you’ve been riding LDs, or maybe have a different horse? Please take it really easy with the young one (especially since you haven’t figured out your equipment) so she can last a long time. This is a hard sport.[/QUOTE]

Yes, I am a big fan of my treeless and totally agree with this. If you are going to go treeless, spend the time and research (and $) to get it properly padded and fitted for your horse. Done right, the treeless is fantastic, done wrong it’s going to make a mess of your horse’s back.

Where is the patch of white hair on your horse’s back? Is it under your seat bones, both sides of the spine? Is it under the pommel, one side or both, or is it behind the pommel but in front of your seat bones?

The BMSS has better stirrup weight distribution than the barefoot and Black Forest saddle. So for posting and 2-pointing it is best. But for seated riding you need to beef up your pad inserts. The memory foam alone is insufficient for most Treeless saddles IMO. I have owned 6 brands at least for distance riding and believe that the saddles that j ust hang the stirrups across the back will not distribute stirrup weight well for most riders. And a firmer pad insert or layers are best.

I do know several people who use the Abetta saddle successfully but it must fit the horse well. One thing about the Skito pads is you can use them under a treed saddle to shim the fit of it.

Chicamuxen

[QUOTE=chicamux;7303283]
Where is the patch of white hair on your horse’s back? Is it under your seat bones, both sides of the spine? Is it under the pommel, one side or both, or is it behind the pommel but in front of your seat bones?

The white hair is under my seat bone on both sides and partially where my upper thigh touches, not on her withers or spine. I thought it might be the roughness of the Dixie Midnight, or perhaps, the foam doesn’t quite support me like it should on the Skito. I weight 120, and post the trot most of the time. But she is little 14.2 and 765 lbs. I have attached a picture of her (she is the one in the middle)
In response to above, yes, I only do LD, and I have only taken her out once, and realized that our rig didn’t work. Trust me, I didn’t walk into this blindly or withouth knowledge. I am not leaning toward treeless or tree, but what works for her :).

[QUOTE=sbwinde;7303534]

[QUOTE=chicamux;7303283]Where is the patch of white hair on your horse’s back? Is it under your seat bones, both sides of the spine? Is it under the pommel, one side or both, or is it behind the pommel but in front of your seat bones?

The white hair is under my seat bone on both sides and partially where my upper thigh touches, not on her withers or spine. I thought it might be the roughness of the Dixie Midnight, or perhaps, the foam doesn’t quite support me like it should on the Skito. I weight 120, and post the trot most of the time. But she is little 14.2 and 765 lbs. I have attached a picture of her (she is the one in the middle)
In response to above, yes, I only do LD, and I have only taken her out once, and realized that our rig didn’t work. Trust me, I didn’t walk into this blindly or withouth knowledge. I am not leaning toward treeless or tree, but what works for her :).[/QUOTE]

What you’re describing is the classic pattern of failure to effectively distribute weight.

But, let’s be positive.

There’s an entire class of saddles out there designed to carry 250-300 pounds, 35 miles a day, each and every day, for 5-7 days. I’m speaking of cavalry saddles.

The U.S. Cavalry used the McClellan from 1859-1948. I personally don’t like it but it is very light in weight and works very well as an edurance saddle. The seat is hard, but if get the Officer’s version they are more comfortable.

Or you can look for a Grimsley Dragoon saddle. These were used immediately before the Mac. Very comfortable and were used by a lot officers curing the ACW.

Then there’s the British Universal Pattern (UP). The Model 1902 is still in use by the Household Cavalry. A flexible tree version was tried in 1912 but was not really very successful and was abandoned.

More difficult to find is the M1936 Phillips saddle. This was the last, official Army saddle. Comes in one size (because by then Army Remounts came in one size). I like it better than the Mac but only slightly.

I ride a Stubben Scout. It’s a 1948 design for the Belgian Army and Police. It carries my larger than it should be butt comfortably for me. My horse has never had a sore back. Not cheap, but quality doesn’t cost, it pays. And no vet bills.

Recently I acquired a British Yeomanry saddle (also called a Staff or Colonial saddle). The UP is a “sling seat” design and really can haul a load. The Yeomanry saddle is a modified foxhunting saddle. The bars are wider and extend past the cantle. I’ve not had that much time in it but it fits the horse quite well.

I know some folks who really like the German Armeesattle Model 1925. I’ve not ridden one but a good friend of mine has one. He swears by it.

There are others, but this should give you a start.

If you go this route, pick a reproduction of saddles before 1900. Horses in those days tended to be somewhat narrower and you can create problems for yourself with them. After 1900 you’ll find wider trees. The later you go in the 20th Century the wider they get. The Armeesattle fit the Trakhenners and Holsteiners that were common in the German Army. The Yeomanry saddle does well on the TB type horse (but fits my Marchador just as well).

Treeless seems to me to be a recipe for causing horses problems. There are better alternatives. Seek them out.

G.

sbwinde,
I bought and tried a Dixie Midnight pad and felt it aggravated my horses. We do have to learn by trial and error don’t we? What works for one person/horse combo may not work for another. But, I hope you won’t rule out the BMSS (especially if you have bought it) without experiencing with the pad and inserts.

Another thing about the BMSS and many of the “western style” endurance saddles, they can sit up over the shoulder a bit, unlike an English style saddle. This can be helpful on a short backed horse. I have very moderate shims (in addition to the regular foam inserts) inside my saddle pads that sit just behind the shoulders. This gives the front of the saddle a little lift and lifts the pommel a bit which allows the shoulder to move more freely. If you have used western saddles very much then you know they do sit a bit more forward and have a slight flare at the bars to give the shoulders room.

Skito makes several laminated inserts for their pads. I bought a western Thin line pad and cut it up to make inserts for one of my pads and replaced the memory foam inserts with another type of firm foam that is not reactive to heat. I think the plain memory foam compresses too much in warm weather especially.

You don’t weigh much, that saddle should work for you and your horse with some pad tweaking if you want to do the experimenting. I have spent 10 times the money on saddles that I have spent buying my horse! I don’t even want to think what my farrier bills would add up to…

chicamuxen AKA Bonnie Snodgrass

Treeless can work if they’re properly fitted, and ditto for treed saddles.

If you want to chat with a saddle fitter who’s also a competitive trail rider, contact Nancy Okun at The Owl and the Rose Distance Tack. She’s a former Trumbull Mtn. fitter and does an excellent job. She also “speaks the language” and can give you tons of helpful input and info. Her email is nancybokun@gmail.com.

Thank you all so much! I have two plans of attack. I want to see what else I can use with my Skito to give more support. Some people said add a felt pad, I was also looking at a place that sells foam- and considered adding another half inch of open-cell foam in the pad itself. I found thefoamfactory.com to have tons of options. So I was wondering which might be the best…

Second, I am thinking about adding a treed Endurance Abetta Endurance to my tack room. I plan to test an Abetta this weekend .

Furthermore, I am going to be sending in some templates. I saw that Horsetackonline.com who now sells Abetta and a few other endurance brands, takes your template and will make recommendations for you, free of charge.

I hate that my horse was hurting and I didn’t even know it. She was a trooper and pushed through though (oh, I also bought an alternative to the Dixie Midnight) just in case that is the problem.

www.thefoamfactory.com

[QUOTE=chicamux;7304398]
sbwinde,

I have very moderate shims (in addition to the regular foam inserts) inside my saddle pads that sit just behind the shoulders. This gives the front of the saddle a little lift and lifts the pommel a bit which allows the shoulder to move more freely.

Skito makes several laminated inserts for their pads. I bought a western Thin line pad and cut it up to make inserts for one of my pads and replaced the memory foam inserts with another type of firm foam that is not reactive to heat. I think the plain memory foam compresses too much in warm weather especially.

chicamuxen AKA Bonnie Snodgrass[/QUOTE]

Can you give me more specifics on the foam you used? I found a website that sells several foam types thefoamfactory.com and was comparing open cell (which apparently has more shock absorption). I dont mind adding a felt, wool or fleece pad either if I get to keep my BM :slight_smile:

[QUOTE=sbwinde;7305699]
Thank you all so much! I have two plans of attack. I want to see what else I can use with my Skito to give more support. Some people said add a felt pad, I was also looking at a place that sells foam- and considered adding another half inch of open-cell foam in the pad itself. I found thefoamfactory.com to have tons of options. So I was wondering which might be the best…

Second, I am thinking about adding a treed Endurance Abetta Endurance to my tack room. I plan to test an Abetta this weekend .

Furthermore, I am going to be sending in some templates. I saw that Horsetackonline.com who now sells Abetta and a few other endurance brands, takes your template and will make recommendations for you, free of charge.

I hate that my horse was hurting and I didn’t even know it. She was a trooper and pushed through though (oh, I also bought an alternative to the Dixie Midnight) just in case that is the problem.[/QUOTE]

On the advice of someone on this board- I got a heavy duty piece of lexan from home depot and cut it to match the shape of the foam that was already in my pad. I put it in the pad between the foam and the top of the pad. Works like a charm.

I replaced the memory foam in my Skito pad with the open cell foam inserts from a Haf pad. I feel this foam, which is around 3/4" thick, works better because it doesn’t collapse when warm. However, like tabula rashah mentioned above, you can add lexan, which is a flexible pastic to your foam inserts. Skito can make you inserts with lexan sandwiched in the middle. Or, you can add inserts made from Thin Line material. You can buy an inexpensive hospital felt saddle pad liner and cut inserts out of it and add that to your foam inserts. Lot’s of possible combinations.

I did learn that is was a bad idea to do extended seated canter work during a 50 mile ride with a memory foam pad. I’ve also heard complaints from some gaited horse riders that the BMSS didn’t work for them. They ride seated for hours at a time and with the BMSS this concentrates your weight right under your seat. I asked one such rider what she had used for a pad and she had simply taken her felt pad from her previous western saddle and stuck it under the BMSS. If you are going to ride seated a lot then maybe a different saddle than the BMSS would be better.

I used them since 2000 with a variety of other saddles tried along the way.

chicamuxen

[QUOTE=sbwinde;7305722]
www.thefoamfactory.com

Can you give me more specifics on the foam you used? I found a website that sells several foam types thefoamfactory.com and was comparing open cell (which apparently has more shock absorption). I dont mind adding a felt, wool or fleece pad either if I get to keep my BM :)[/QUOTE]

Closed foam pads have a limited life expectancy. If they are heavily used then look for six months to a year. If lightly used, expect a couple of years. They are chemical products and continue to evolve over time, becoming more rigid.

After reading a lot of the advice here I still maintain that the “treeless” saddle offers tremendous complexity, the same fitting requirements as a rigid tree saddle, and offers no compensating benefits over a rigid tree saddle. So I have to ask “why?”

G.

A typical “treed” saddle is rigid, your horses back isn’t. The saddle that appears to be a good fit for the stationary horse doesn’t fit that horses back as they raise their back or lower their head or bend their body. You can spend money over and over again having you saddle reflocked and customized and possibly screwed up with $$ flushed down the toilet. They your horse looses weight or gain muscle mass and the saddle doesn’t fit any more. You have two horses and each needs their own saddle. Yadda yadda.

Many treeless saddle are just bareback pads with stirrups hung on them and do not distribute the riders weight well. They can cause a variety of problems for the horse, riders buy special saddle pads which can be expensive but which can have the inserts changed out or customized but the saddle itself may just be insufficient. But there are more and more treeless saddles that have more support and great weight distribution built in. Many have replaceable pommels so you can swap the saddle from a wide horse to a not so wide horse. The saddle follows the movement of the horses back, will lift and bend with the horse and many of them are fully customizable by the saddle owner. I love the fact that I can fit my saddle to my horse myself! I can then take to my other horse and with a change of saddle pads it fits that horse.

I have a Startrekk All-Purpose saddle http://www.saddlingsolutions.com/startrekk-saddles/startrekk-all-purpose-saddle/ which has changeable pommel arches, changeable flexibility and flocked panels. Very nice weight distribution and I can feel my horse and he can feel me as the saddle follows his movement. There are other dressage, trail, western models out there with excellent panels built into the saddles for good weight distribution and they are not RIGID BOARDS on your horses backs. There are tons of pluses to a well made “treeless” or flexible tree saddle. Don’t lump them all together in the category.

Recently I decided to try a treed saddle again, it was a Duet Tango with a hoop type tree for the wide body horse. OMG, I felt so far off the horses back, with so much rigid stuff between my seat and the horses back. I rode in treed saddles for 40 years and I couldn’t wait to get off that saddle. Are all treed saddle going to feel as bad to me? Probably not but I’ll probably not go back to riding boards again.

chicamuxen

chicamuxen

sbwinde - remove the Barefoot off your list. It is better suited to the wide backed round barreled endurance horses. Your Bob Marshall has also shown itself to be the same. If you are having this problem with simple little LDs, it’s good that you are exploring better options now.

Your mare is still young, and I suspect still developing into herself. Because she is narrow right now, you might be better off exploring the treeless saddles that have a “treed saddle” type of flocking, and rely less upon the pad to do the job of protection. The two types of treeless saddles that come immediately to mind that would be really good for your mare are:

Sensation
Arabian saddles

Both above are linked to the company websites. Check them out.

“A typical “treed” saddle is rigid, your horses back isn’t. The saddle that appears to be a good fit for the stationary horse doesn’t fit that horses back as they raise their back or lower their head or bend their body. You can spend money over and over again having you saddle reflocked and customized and possibly screwed up with $$ flushed down the toilet. They your horse looses weight or gain muscle mass and the saddle doesn’t fit any more. You have two horses and each needs their own saddle. Yadda yadda.”

It is absolutely correct that the horse’s back is a dynamic environment. Good saddle fitters fit to the dynamic, not the static. A good saddle with a rigid tree will also have a good pad as part of the “saddle system.” It can be as simple as a sheepskin or blanket folded cavalry-style or all manner of complex “plastic stuff.”

I’m a big believer in the KISS principle. Lots of what has been suggested here to make the “treeless” saddle work violates that principle.

G.

G - with all due respect, we know you have a real dislike of treeless saddles. Some of us, however, that actually DO the sport of endurance, have found that treed saddles - no matter how well checked and flocked and fussed over, blah blah blah - are the wrong type of equipment for our endurance horses. Treed saddles don’t move with the horse’s back, they don’t offer the flexibility needed for that back when the horse climbs mountains, goes down mountains, travels the real world trail that is unforgiving and demands all sorts of transitions from walk to canter that can never be duplicated in a ring or any other created-and-groomed surface, even an eventing course.

Our horses have to travel long, tiring miles on changing surfaces, and during that time they need us to not only be flexible and “giving”, they need equipment that does the same. Hence lightweight waterproof biothane bridles and breastplates, wide platform stirrups for better support for the rider…and flexible saddles.

We endurance riders have to learn what works best for our sport. The realization that most of the riders in our sport lean towards a treeless speaks volumes. If it doesn’t work well outside in other sports, then so be it. Time to look for a saddle that will do the job.

But in endurance, many many many of us have come to discover that treeless is what our horses prefer, and what allows them to travel the trails in comfort and ease because it moves and flexes with the horse’s back muscles, unlike a rigid treed saddle which is both unforgiving and unresponsive to the demands of the long distance trail.

Race jockeys also use treeless saddles. You won’t find a treed saddle anywhere near the Kentucky Derby…except on the outriders. :slight_smile:

[QUOTE=chicamuxen1;7307180]
I replaced the memory foam in my Skito pad with the open cell foam inserts from a Haf pad. I feel this foam, which is around 3/4" thick, works better because it doesn’t collapse when warm. However, like tabula rashah mentioned above, you can add lexan, which is a flexible pastic to your foam inserts. Skito can make you inserts with lexan sandwiched in the middle. Or, you can add inserts made from Thin Line material. You can buy an inexpensive hospital felt saddle pad liner and cut inserts out of it and add that to your foam inserts. Lot’s of possible combinations.

I did learn that is was a bad idea to do extended seated canter work during a 50 mile ride with a memory foam pad. I’ve also heard complaints from some gaited horse riders that the BMSS didn’t work for them. They ride seated for hours at a time and with the BMSS this concentrates your weight right under your seat. I asked one such rider what she had used for a pad and she had simply taken her felt pad from her previous western saddle and stuck it under the BMSS. If you are going to ride seated a lot then maybe a different saddle than the BMSS would be better.

I used them since 2000 with a variety of other saddles tried along the way.

chicamuxen[/QUOTE]

I love all of these options! Thank you so much. I purchased Lexan and plan to stick that in the pad (much cheaper than ordering from Skito).

I guess I was too trusting on the advice I received on my saddle, Skito and Dixie Midnight. I have decided the DM has to go. I found this site that talks about DM’s and other “abrasive saddle pads” and was really disappointed at what I paid for that sucker, in addition to the pain that it caused her . I also pulled that SKito out and started messing with it and see that although I am light, 3/4 memory foam really isn’t supportive for her. I don’t ride seated, as a matter of fact, I tried my dressage saddle on her which fits perfectly, so that is what we will be using to putz around until I get my Skito the way I need it.

Any thoughts on the Flex trees by Abetta? I am considering their Arabian Endurance Saddle and have read mixed reviews on sizing and whether or not to get the flex tree. I will also take a look at the Startrekk, Sensations and the Arabian Saddle, but I am hoping to stay under 1k for a saddle. I really have come to love my BMSS, so I am hoping to work out the issues and get her as cozy as possible. I have sought a good saddle fitter in the San Antonio area, but internet searches haven’t been helpful. There are several saddleries here, but they all are geared towards pretty and heavy western saddles, not treeless or endurance.