English Rider Thinking of Doing a Western Dressage Test - Any "Gotchas"?

[KIloBright]

[QUOTE=Flash44;7922493]
Most wp riders regularly school with two hands, so there is no issue with riding in a curb bit with two hands. If you can’t ride a horse in a curb bit softly and correctly with two hands, you can’t do it with one hand.

I’d rather see a rider going softly and correctly with two hands rather than a one-handed death grip. There is a big gray area you need to get through when transitioning to one hand, and I’m all for doing the best thing for the horse and rider.

I think using “age” as a criteria for going one-handed is kind of silly. It should be number of years and level competing. The horse I’m riding now was a 4H project for a younger teen, and did not start showing locally until she was 4. Although a wonderful rider, the teen really did not have the experience to get the horse to the level that she could go correctly with one hand. They could fudge it, and did great locally, but the horse was not correct.[/QUOTE]

Yes, western riders sometimes school with two hands on a curb, some also even school with a running martingale, or draw reins, BUt, if you always school that way, you are f’…’ when you go to show!
THat’s not the point. Once they enter the ring on that senior horse, western, in a curb, they have to ride one handed
In fact, at a judging clinic, Joe Carter gave a great example , concerning video reviews, catching faults, and how solid a horse haS TO BE , RIDDEN ONE HANDED (forget that a curb bit is part of that package, and focus on the one
hand )
This was a World show reining run , judged by 6 judges. 5 placed the horse in the top three runs, while a 6th DQed the horse
The video caught what 5 of the judges missed. At the top one one fast circle, the rider went two two hands, for just a second or so
A horse ridden one handed in a curb in a death grip is neither ready to be ridden in a curb, nor ridden correctly in a curb. The entire idea of getting a horse well trained and ready to be ridden in a curb, is to allow you to ride with a loose rein and one hand.
Again, if the horse is not ready to be ridden one handed correctly, RIDE WITH TWO HANDS IN A SNAFFLE< ESP AS THERE IS NO AGE RESTRICTION IN WD FOR A SNAFFLE
Why even go into the scenario of a horse not ready to be ridden in a curb, thus ridden with a death grip, versus as a curb is intended to be used, when there is no reason in WD to even have a horse in a curb, so it should be a non issue, beyond leaving a horse not ready to be ridden correctly in a curb, in a snaffle!!!
Dressage-unless a horse is up in a double bridle he is ridden in a snaffle-right
Thus, why should even western curbs be allowed in WD???
All it comes don to me is, the horse is not soft in a snaffle, thus the rider has found a class where he can show with two hands on curb
The entire idea of WD is stupid, JMO. While I agree in the basic conception of dreasage, far as progressive training, and getting complete body control on a horse, I totally disagree that ALL horses can benefit from dressage training
Simply not true. All good training programs, including western, now have programs that develop body control.
The motto for reining is to 'control a horse’s every move
While basic body control exercises are universal, there still is a component that is different while training that western horse in a snaffle stage. That horse is trained in such a manner that teaches him to eventually have self carriage, and to work on a loose rein, without constant rein support
You can’t develop that, by baby sitting that horse continually between reins and legs, never giving him the chance to stay correct on his own, fixing as
needed
In a turn on the haunches or a spin, we want a western horse to cross over, not hop around
WD came out of people that wanted to ride their western horses with rein contact, because the horse never advanced to self carriage, people that did not want to ride in an English saddle and either ride open dressage, or HUS, and still be able to ride in a curb with two hands, JMO.
If you don’t like western pl, reining, etc to the level demanded at breed and specialty shows, why not do Ranch horse competition?
They have ranch horse pleasure, working cowhorse , etc.
THat makes way more sense to me then this hybrid useless WD!
It is popular with Morgans, as they are shown with contact to begin with in a curb.
Here is a link to Alberta Ranch horse Versatility-

http://www.arhva.com/

If you wish to ride dressage-please ride dressage. JUdging, attire, equipment in well in place. If you want to ride a western pattern, then try reining, western riding, trail or horsemanship, riding under established "WESTERN RULES

[NoSuchPerson]

[QUOTE=aktill;7922845]
The sheer weirdness of trying to define a sport where a “western horse” shouldn’t be judged like an “english horse” when it could be the same dang horse in both cases is where the trouble falls.[/QUOTE]

And there is the fundamental question, I guess. Are western dressage competitions going to reward horses who could be equally successful in English dressage competitions or are they going to reward horses who do not have the big suspension and extension that you see winning in the English dressage ring today?

[KIloBright]

[QUOTE=NoSuchPerson;7924448]
And there is the fundamental question, I guess. Are western dressage competitions going to reward horses who could be equally successful in English dressage competitions or are they going to reward horses who do not have the big suspension and extension that you see winning in the English dressage ring today?[/QUOTE]

Good point, and part of the reason I think the entire concept of WD is stupid
If you wish to ride dressage, then ride dressage, and not invent some quasi pointless class, whose main advantage lies in riding with a western saddle, contact and even two hands on the reins, on a western curb bit.
It fits into neither western nor English traditional training or values
Ride a tight difficult trail pattern, as per western rules and a curb,and I think you will derive enough of a challenge, far as pattern work

[CHT]

Being in a curb vs a snaffle, and being one or two handed should not affect your scores (unless it affects your riding or your horse).

Judges want to see clear gaits. At the lower levels they want to see a more working jog, as you move up the levels the more they expect to see collection. An on the forehand jog/lope will not do well, but nor will a fast/rushed trot/canter.

The horse is supposed to be on lighter contact than an English horse.

The reason I have seen English dressage type horses do better in a class than nice western horses is simply that the English riders know what a 20 meter circle is, while the western (new to dressage) riders do too small a circle, or even a square. Not knowing how to follow the pattern makes it hard for a judge to give a horse/rider combo a good score.

As you work up the levels the horse should look more and more like a western riding horse, but at the basic levels they are not expected to have the same degree of self carriage and collection.

[mvp]

[QUOTE=grey_mare;7922558]
I think this about sums up my situation……which leads me to conclude that i should just do the regular dressage test, since I won’t be able to jog and lope around - all mellow - and on the forehand, in the wd test….[/QUOTE]

If you think you’ll get rewarded for imitating a modern western pleasure horse in the dressage ring, I think you’ll lose. Also, it sounds kinda cynical.

You have misinterpreted the intention and “search image” of the sport. Why pay to show there if you think so little of it?

[Flash44]

Great post, but most Western riders can ride a pattern and have to be aware of markers and staying within the markers or executing maneuvers according to markers, so figuring out what a 20 meter circle is wrt the letters should not take more than once lesson.

Western dressage is growing fast, so why would anyone just sit and complain that the riders and horses are not good enough and they should all hark back to the traditional Western roots and not compete for 4 years while they finish the horse (if even capable of doing that) in a full bridle??? Why would anyone say “You should not do dressage unless you do it MY way” The discipline is growing, obviously there are people who think it sounds like fun and want to give it a shot. I’m going to give it a whirl next year, and I guarantee I can ride circles around most dressage riders. I really can’t stand the snootiness of some posters who feel that someone who is trying to learn something new should just stay home until they are capable of competing at an upper level. Ridiculous.

OP, forget about what other people think and go have a great time with your horse.

[CHT]

If you are referring to my post, it was based on observations watching and judging a western dressage class. There were some nice horses who just didn’t do well because their rider didn’t ride the geometry properly. I think it is just because it is so new, so they don’t have the experience or understanding of how important that silly 20 meter circle is!

As a result the “best” western horses didn’t do as well as they could have, while the riders that had done English dressage did better than they likely should have just because they “got” how to ride a dressage test. (although in the class I judged the best horse did win as the rider apparently did her homework and did a beautiful job. Incidentally she rode her “finished” western horse two handed in a snaffle for the test.)

You are right that it is new and will take a while to mature.

[KIloBright]

Incidentally she rode her “finished” western horse two handed in a snaffle for the test.)
Exactly,and if that WD is going to be offered, then ride a horse with two hands and a snaffle bit.
No different then if you ride that finished ;western horse all around, in HUS or hunter hack or hunt seat equitation-you ride with two hands on a snaffle, not a western curb with two hands/ The latter is what I find so bad , concerning WD.

[Flash44]

Not sure what the problem is with the number of hands and type of bit. We’ve established that it takes a long time to finish a horse to the point that it can be ridden correctly with one hand in a curb bit and adequately perform a test, many people and horses probably are not at that point yet but can do very well with two hands, so why not let them? There is nothing wrong, inhumane or abusive when riding in a curb bit with two hands. This has already been debated by the WDA and decided upon. If you are doing Western dressage, then show in Western tack. You really can’t compare Western dressage with HUS - they are two different disciplines, one English and one Western.

[mvp]

[QUOTE=NoSuchPerson;7924448]
And there is the fundamental question, I guess. Are western dressage competitions going to reward horses who could be equally successful in English dressage competitions or are they going to reward horses who do not have the big suspension and extension that you see winning in the English dressage ring today?[/QUOTE]

The latter.

That’s one reason I’m interested in this sport. I can’t afford to compete with the really fancy-moving WBs. Heck, I left the Hunters for the same reason.

The WDAA people did say at a seminar I attended that they were going to reward the correct-moving, correctly-trained horses who, because they had stock breed heritage would, most of them, never move like the WBs. Honest to God, they are trying to make an inclusive sport that will appeal to Western folks not into the speed and skill of reining and cutting and also unhappy with the peanut rolling of (most) Western Pleasure.

[mvp]

[QUOTE=Flash44;7927306]
Not sure what the problem is with the number of hands and type of bit. We’ve established that it takes a long time to finish a horse to the point that it can be ridden correctly with one hand in a curb bit and adequately perform a test, many people and horses probably are not at that point yet but can do very well with two hands, so why not let them? There is nothing wrong, inhumane or abusive when riding in a curb bit with two hands. This has already been debated by the WDA and decided upon. If you are doing Western dressage, then show in Western tack. You really can’t compare Western dressage with HUS - they are two different disciplines, one English and one Western.[/QUOTE]

Riding two-handed in a curb bit really isn’t helpful in the training of the horse. That’s why it does, in fact, matter whether your ride one- or two-handed and with which kind of bit.

[KIloBright]

Exactly.
Why do you wish to ride with two hands on a curb in a dressage class, western or not?
WD has horse shown on contact, correct?
While it is true that in the transition stage, a trainer might go to two hands on that curb, it is only done to correct that horse, who is not solid yet, on completely guiding one handed.
That curb is not designed to be used with constant contact and two hands, no matter how ‘soft’ those hands are
Therefore, if a horse is not ready to be ridden correctly in a curb , in a western class, which I’m being told WD is, then use a snaffle and two a hands on the reins, regardless of age of the horse
Since there is no age requiment in WD, for a horse to be in a curb, then the only reason for riding with a curb and two hands, is for control, and that is the wrong use of a curb, in a western class, which you state WD is!
Can’t have it both ways!!!

[Flash44]

Just because you are using two hands with a curb bit does not mean you have constant contact. I think KIloBright is assuming that when riding with two hands, the rider is riding with a lot of contact and direct reining, and not working methodically and logically towards a complete transition to one hand. The bit does not know how many hands you are using, it always responds the same. This is not an “either/or” situation, there is a big gray area.

[SportArab]

The whole point of most western training is to get the horse off the bit. Not sure how any horse trained to do western pleasure is going to adjust to being reintroduced to contact.

I do find it interesting all the English folks who suddenly want to do Western dressage because they don’t like the emphasis on gaits in traditional dressage. Seems like there should be a better solution than having everyone tack up western to avoid getting their horses’ gaits be part of the score.

And I say this as someone who started out western - and still enjoys a well trained western horse - and now does dressage and hunters.

[mvp]

[QUOTE=KIloBright;7927993]

While it is true that in the transition stage, a trainer might go to two hands on that curb, it is only done to correct that horse, who is not solid yet, on completely guiding one handed.
That curb is not designed to be used with constant contact and two hands, no matter how ‘soft’ those hands are
Therefore, if a horse is not ready to be ridden correctly in a curb , in a western class, which I’m being told WD is, then use a snaffle and two a hands on the reins, regardless of age of the horse[/QUOTE]

I’d add that if you really went all the way back to the “classical age” of Western training-- now represented to us by the folks making Californio style bridle horses-- you’d never see someone using two hands on the reins going to a spade bit.

Rather, you’d see that “not yet perfectly finished… but almost there” bridle horse ridden in his spade bit and a bosalita. There would be two sets of reins. The rider would use the bosalita to make a correction he could not with the spade.

In general, those corrections would relate to creating lateral flexion. And, of course, lateral flexion should come from the rider’s body as much as from his hand. The snaffle, bosal and bosalita help with creating the hand’s signal for lateral flexion. The straight bar of a leverage bit cannot; their only purpose is to ask the horse to raise his rib cage between his shoulder blades.

All that is to explain why riding two-handed in a curb is pretty bad and should not (IMO) be acceptable in any form of western riding. It does nothing to train the horse who isn’t yet strong enough or educated enough to hold his body in lateral- and/or longitudinal flexion without most of that signal coming from the rider’s body, not his hand. The folks who get a lot done with leverage bits seem to be placing a lot of emphasis on the position of the horse’s head and neck, usually at the expense of educating his body from the shoulders back.

I believe WD has accepted the two-hands-and-contact-in-a-leverage-bit as a (crappy) compromise meant to pacify the people coming from Morgan and Arab show worlds who have had a lot to do with starting this discipline and its organization, the WDAA. I am here to tell you that not all board members are happy with the compromise.

I think the Arab/Morgan people who love their breed and want to show western but can’t quite get those hotter horses to do what the modern/dead-kind quarter horses will do are perhaps responsible for the modern trend of riding horses in leverage bits with too much contact. I don’t know for sure; I’m not in those worlds.

But the folks who started the WDAA, even those hailing from Morgan Show World had good intentions-- they wanted to create a discipline that would teach people better training for the horses.

[mvp]

[QUOTE=Flash44;7928353]
Just because you are using two hands with a curb bit does not mean you have constant contact. I think KIloBright is assuming that when riding with two hands, the rider is riding with a lot of contact and direct reining, and not working methodically and logically towards a complete transition to one hand. The bit does not know how many hands you are using, it always responds the same. This is not an “either/or” situation, there is a big gray area.[/QUOTE]

Why would someone use two hands, then?

You can read my longer post above about how different bits relate to teaching the horse to use his body in the above post if you care to. The short answer to your question here is that riding a horse two-handed in a leverage bit doesn’t actually help teach him much.

[KIloBright]

Very good post, mvp, and I see that you also have the same thoughts as to where WD originated from in the first place.
A leverage bit is designed for increased signal, with a well broke horse, education gained in the snaffle stage , responding to the up take of the curb strap,before bit contact even comes into play. A curb also encourages vertical flexion, but is not designed for lateral reining
The way that a curb is allowed to be used in WD is simply not correct.

[KIloBright]

just because you are using two hands with a curb bit does not mean you have constant contact. I think KIloBright is assuming that when riding with two hands, the rider is riding with a lot of contact and direct reining, and not working methodically and logically towards a complete transition to one hand. The bit does not know how many hands you are using, it always responds the same. This is not an “either/or” situation, there is a big gray area.

How are you working towards the final goal of riding one handed, as per your post, Flash, in WD?
That is the way a curb is used in the transitional period in many western training programs (going to two hands to fix something, taking contact, while driving with legs as needed, then going back to one hand and allowing the horse to rate off of a loose in direct rein, legs and seat .
That is NOT the way that curb is used in WD, and therein lies the problem

[Flash44]

[QUOTE=mvp;7928634]
Why would someone use two hands, then?

You can read my longer post above about how different bits relate to teaching the horse to use his body in the above post if you care to. The short answer to your question here is that riding a horse two-handed in a leverage bit doesn’t actually help teach him much.[/QUOTE]

I read your post and I don’t agree with it. I don’t subscribe to the “classical age” of Western training as the only way to get things done correctly. Also, you are lumping all leverage bits together. A Pelham is a leverage bit and I’ve never seen anyone riding in a Pelham with one hand.

Maybe Les Vogt has it wrong: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9XuKWgPCmXQ&list=PL384E8BC1017AD565&index=4

And Sandy too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DPtfDwHFB8w&list=PL384E8BC1017AD565&index=16

[KIloBright]

No, a Pelham is not used with one hand, but with double reins, with snaffle action available for any lateral work

A pelham bit is a type of bit used when riding a horse. It has elements of both a curb bit and a snaffle bit. In this respect a pelham bit functions similar to a double bridle, and like a double bridle it normally has “double” reins: a set of curb reins and a set of snaffle reins.[1] Because it has a bit shank and can exert curb-style pressure on the horse, it is considered a curb bit.[2] Like all curb bits, a pelham bit has a mouthpiece, shanks with both purchase and lever arms, a ring for rein attachment at the bottom of the shank, and a curb chain. But like a snaffle bit, a pelham bit also has a bit ring on either side of the mouthpiece. Like some curb bits, a pelham bit usually has “loose” shanks - hinged at the mouthpiece in the same way that the rings of a snaffle bit are hinged. When two sets of reins are used, the snaffle rein generally is wider, to help distinguish it from the curb

Hense, the concept is similar to the method of using a bosal and a bit, western, until the horse is ready to be ridden off of the Spade bit alone
Never suggested that trainers, while training a horse, fixing a hole, won’t go to two hands on that curb, and what you are watching is a moment in time, fixing something, because I can assure you, that they spend more time riding that horse one handed, as that is the way they have to show that horse
There is absolutely no way you get a horse shown in a curb , if you spend most of the time training him with two hands on that curb, anymore that you can use things like draw reins all the time training, to try and artificially rate a horse, and then expect to show that horse without those aids
In other words, they is a huge difference is going to two hands on a curb that allows it, on a horse that is solid enough to be shown one handed, and actually just riding in a class with two hands constantly on that curb
Many things are done by some outside of the show ring, but that is way different then making some of those questionable methods legal in the showpen
If a horse is not ready to be shown, one handed, western, in a curb, he belongs in a snaffle for that class.
Why the insistence in wanting to ride with a curb, when you can use a snaffle, and need two hands on the reins to get that horse shown?? I don’t get it!