English Rider Thinking of Doing a Western Dressage Test - Any "Gotchas"?

[S1969]

So what’s really the issue? I get that it might not be correct training to use a curb with two hands, but it’s not really up to the judge to critique the training of a horse in the ring. Is the big objection really that people consider a curb bit to be “cheating” - e.g. able to achieve flexion by the horse that is not because of self-carriage and training?

I guess if it’s already been determined that a curb bit is allowable in WD, I’m not sure what this thread is still about? Obviously, for an English rider trying WD, riding in a snaffle would be the obvious choice.

Maybe I’m missing the point here. I’d love to try WD this year. Need a western saddle…but I’ll happily ride in my snaffle since I don’t own a curb bit either.

[NoSuchPerson]

I think the objection from folks posting here is that bits have a purpose, that being to communicate with the horse, and because of the way curb bits act in the horse’s mouth, when you use two hands, the lines of communication to the horse are not clear and unambiguous. Therefore, if you want to ride with two hands, you ought to use a snaffle, which is designed to provide clear and unambiguous signals to the horse when you use two hands.

There are some curbs that work better than others for two handed riding. I think that’s one of the selling points of some of the Myler curbs is that they have independently swiveling shanks, which makes riding two handed less confusing for the horse. (I’m not all that up on the details of Myler bits, so someone may correct me on that.)

The bottom line is that, from a mechanical standpoint, riding in a western curb bit with two hands is not correct. Sure, people do lots of things with their horses that aren’t technically correct. [shrug] But, I think one could legitimately make the argument that the show ring isn’t really the place to be rewarding actions that aren’t technically correct.

Having said that, though I actually do understand the logic behind WDAA’s decision to allow the use of curb bits with 2-handed riding.

[Flash44]

[QUOTE=NoSuchPerson;7929601]
I think the objection from folks posting here is that bits have a purpose, that being to communicate with the horse, and because of the way curb bits act in the horse’s mouth, when you use two hands, the lines of communication to the horse are not clear and unambiguous. Therefore, if you want to ride with two hands, you ought to use a snaffle, which is designed to provide clear and unambiguous signals to the horse when you use two hands.

There are some curbs that work better than others for two handed riding. I think that’s one of the selling points of some of the Myler curbs is that they have independently swiveling shanks, which makes riding two handed less confusing for the horse. (I’m not all that up on the details of Myler bits, so someone may correct me on that.)

The bottom line is that, from a mechanical standpoint, riding in a western curb bit with two hands is not correct. Sure, people do lots of things with their horses that aren’t technically correct. [shrug] But, I think one could legitimately make the argument that the show ring isn’t really the place to be rewarding actions that aren’t technically correct.

Having said that, though I actually do understand the logic behind WDAA’s decision to allow the use of curb bits with 2-handed riding. :)[/QUOTE]

Good post, but again, what is the difference between two hands and one hand? Do you mean “direct rein” instead of two hands? Just because a rider is using two hands does NOT mean the rider is direct reining. So if the point is that is is not correct to use a direct rein when riding in a curb bit, then that is the point. The number of hands is irrelevant.

When I showed my horse in a snaffle with two hands, we still had a drape, so really there was no point in even having a snaffle bit.

[NoSuchPerson]

[QUOTE=Flash44;7929683]
Good post, but again, what is the difference between two hands and one hand? Do you mean “direct rein” instead of two hands? Just because a rider is using two hands does NOT mean the rider is direct reining. So if the point is that is is not correct to use a direct rein when riding in a curb bit, then that is the point. The number of hands is irrelevant.

When I showed my horse in a snaffle with two hands, we still had a drape, so really there was no point in even having a snaffle bit.[/QUOTE]

You’re quibbling over semantics. When I (and most of the people posting in this thread, I think) say “two hands” I mean direct reining and when I say “one hand,” I mean neck reining.

Why would you ride with two hands if you are neck reining? (Granting that you might have some special circumstance in which you would need to put two hands on the reins to direct rein.)

[S1969]

[QUOTE=NoSuchPerson;7929601]
Having said that, though I actually do understand the logic behind WDAA’s decision to allow the use of curb bits with 2-handed riding. :)[/QUOTE]

Which is what? I would think it might simply be that if you deny this bit, you might lose entries of people that would be good candidates for WD?

[NoSuchPerson]

[QUOTE=S1969;7929756]
Which is what? I would think it might simply be that if you deny this bit, you might lose entries of people that would be good candidates for WD?[/QUOTE]

Yes, I believe that was the reason they decided to allow the curb bit.

[KIloBright]

Ditto
The only reason to use two hands on a curb in WD, since any age horse can be ridden with a snaffle in WD, is for control
By allowing two hands on a curb in WD, it opens the entries up to horses that "need’ a curb, versus just horses that have graduated to being ridden correctly in a curb.
Can’t control what happens outside of the showpen, regarding use of bits, etc, but the show ring should reflect correct use of bits, as per design and industry standards

[mvp]

[QUOTE=S1969;7929574]
So what’s really the issue? I get that it might not be correct training to use a curb with two hands, but it’s not really up to the judge to critique the training of a horse in the ring. [/QUOTE]

I think any kind of dressage show-- where one gets written comments from the judge-- is primarily about checking the horse’s training. In fact, the whole sport of dressage is about helping people develop a method of training that helps the horse become the best athlete he can be, regardless of his breed or build.

To create rules for tack and showing that does not speak to a method for training a horse absolutely misses the point of this form of competition. JMO.

[KIloBright]

The judge critiques what he sees in the ring, and not as to what is used outside of that ring.
Some venues do have rules where equipment not legal in the show ring, often used in training, can’t be used in the warm up area either. I think this is a great rule! Of course, the warm up area has to be policed.
I rode in a 50/50 late fall two year old futurity, that had elements of rail work, conformation evaluation and a pattern to ride
Things like martingales, draw reins were not allowed in the warm up. It was funny to see some people used to using these devises, run their snaffle reins through the D rings on their saddles and, to try and get that draw rein action, in the warm up!
Yes, dressage, simply means training, but what many people miss, is that many other programs outside of dressage work towards the same goals. To rein a horse, according to motto, ‘is to control his every move’-ie complete body control is worked on just like dressage, in a progressive training program.
Still, no matter, once that horse hits the showpen, if ridden in a curb, he is ridden one handed
Someone is going to post a free style reining event, so I will beat them to the disclaimer. Yes, one sees horses ridden with two hands on a curb, in free style reining, which does not count towards any official points, nor has a definite pattern, thus is an exception, with the class being purely entertainment, with crowd applause as part of the final score
The point was made that WD is a, 'WESTERN, event and thus has no relationship to HUS, where senior horses are ridden two handed in a D ring
Well, if that is truly the case, then it needs to follow standard western rules, and that means you ride either with a snaffle and two hands, or you ride with a curb correctly-one handed
WD does not speak for a method of training, allowing two hands on a curb,-you have over simplified and taken things out of context, just because 'SOMETIMES, a western horse is ridden for short periods in curbs like loose jawed short shanked jointed mouth transition curbs, two handed
That does not translate using any curb, two handed, for an entire evaluation ride, never having periods where you allow the horse to stay correct on a loose indirect rein
Any western trainer that rides with two hands on a curb, regularly, never during that training session giving the horse a chance to stay correct on his own, nor riding that horse regularly as he must be shown, winds up in a dead end, and goes nowhere in that show ring.
Why is this point so hard to understand???
Again, why do you wish to ride a horse two handed on a curb, when you have an event that has no age expectations in having that horse up in a curb, ridden correctly in one, when you can use a snaffle, a bit designed for both constant contact, if one wishes to use it, and two hands???
I don’t get it!!!
All That I can assume, is your horse can’t be ridden in a snaffle and needs that extra control a leverage bit will give,esp using two hands

[S1969]

[QUOTE=mvp;7933182]
I think any kind of dressage show-- where one gets written comments from the judge-- is primarily about checking the horse’s training. In fact, the whole sport of dressage is about helping people develop a method of training that helps the horse become the best athlete he can be, regardless of his breed or build.

To create rules for tack and showing that does not speak to a method for training a horse absolutely misses the point of this form of competition. JMO.[/QUOTE]

Well, I agree with the post above - the judge is critiquing a moment in time, without knowing anything about the training of the horse or the rider, or anything else about the pair.

With luck, the judge’s scores and comments will be used by the rider and trainer (if they have one) to check their training progress.

[KIloBright]

I’;m very familiar with riding a pattern that is scored
We had, in Alberta, a program that was called the Alberta Horse Improvement program
The purpose of that program, was at age one and two, to score conformation, as it relates to form and function. Major aND MINOR FAULTS WERE LISTED
Three judges were used, one being an equine vet.
Performance patterns fro 3, 4 and 5 year olds, were to identify future athletic potencial, without being event specific
Appaloosas were evaluated the same day as Moragns and Arabians, and the patterns were like a dressage pattern, with markers for gait changes, extensions, etc
The patterns could be ridden either English or western, BUT, if you chose to ride western,and with a curb, you were expected to ride that pattern with one hand,and In fact, age rules applied, as to snaffles, versus curbs
The performance pattern counted for 70% of the total score, with 30% of the score being on conformation.
In the performance patterns, one judge was from an English Background and one from a western background
The vet only judged the conformation part.
Horses that scored 75% and above, re4ceived 'classic designation. All riders got written scores from both judges
I rode that pattern on my three year old, with a snaffle and western saddle.
My horse scored ‘Classic’, but the real interesting thing was, there was only one point difference in the score I got from the western judge and that I got from the English Judge, and the comments were very similar.
My point being, there is no excuse for riding with a curb bit and two hands on the reins, any more than allowing draw reins or running martingales, ect., and I don’t care if that class has WD applied to it!
IF THE HORSE IS NOT READY TO BE SCORED/EVALUATED, using a curb bit correctly, then ride the darn thing in a snaffle!

[S1969]

[QUOTE=KIloBright;7934328]

My point being, there is no excuse for riding with a curb bit and two hands on the reins, any more than allowing draw reins or running martingales, ect., and I don’t care if that class has WD applied to it!
IF THE HORSE IS NOT READY TO BE SCORED/EVALUATED, using a curb bit correctly, then ride the darn thing in a snaffle![/QUOTE]

I think people understand your point. I’m not sure anyone is arguing with you - just clarifying the rules.

[mvp]

[QUOTE=S1969;7933344]
Well, I agree with the post above - the judge is critiquing a moment in time, without knowing anything about the training of the horse or the rider, or anything else about the pair.

With luck, the judge’s scores and comments will be used by the rider and trainer (if they have one) to check their training progress.[/QUOTE]

Sure. But the same limits/criticisms apply to English dressage as well. There’s no special criticism of WD embedded in the fact that judges can’t see more than a snapshot of a horse’s training, or that rider’s might or might now read the judge’s comments as they were intended.

The take-home point, one I saw the WDAA folks make at their seminar, is that they are aiming to create a discipline that is like dressage in that it is a form of competition and “checking your work via scores and comments” that is like English dressage.

I find it refreshing and fun to think that there’s a place to train and show a horse that doesn’t have to compete with the incredible amount of money it takes to buy that spectacular-moving WB. I really am in this for the training journey-- whether the horse wears English or Western tack. While I do want to go to USDF shows, get my medals and compete there, I don’t want to pay to lose because the discipline is turning into a “who bought the nicest horse” contest. Heck, had I wanted that, I’d still be in the Hunter Ring. I got priced out, so I’m looking for somewhere to compete with a well-trained horse.

I’d like to think that I’d choose a better mover than someone who loves the flat gaits of a stock breed horse. But I like it that these guys have tried to make a kind of showing that does leave room for horses who don’t move like really fancy WBs. That is how dressage was when I was a kid: You could compete on a horse who didn’t start out with fantastic movement.

[NoSuchPerson]

[QUOTE=mvp;7934602]
That is how dressage was when I was a kid: You could compete on a horse who didn’t start out with fantastic movement.[/QUOTE]

I was first introduced to dressage back in the early 1970s. Once I got out of college, I never really had any contact with it except as an occasional casual spectator.

I was really shocked last year when I was talking to a local dressage trainer about mules in dressage and she said that you can’t be competitive around here in lower levels unless you had a horse with outstanding movement. In response to my “Whaa…?” she said that training level movements were so easy that any horse could be trained to do them, so the only way to differentiate one from another was the natural movement of the horse. She said it wasn’t until upper levels that you could begin to compensate for less than stellar movement with other qualities.

I did grasp what she was saying and I can even see how it makes sense, but it still just seems wrong.

Anyway, like mvp, I’m hopeful that WD will turn out to be something I can happily compete in. There’s a WDAA show here in April and I’m going to go watch.

[S1969]

[QUOTE=mvp;7934602]
I’d like to think that I’d choose a better mover than someone who loves the flat gaits of a stock breed horse. But I like it that these guys have tried to make a kind of showing that does leave room for horses who don’t move like really fancy WBs. That is how dressage was when I was a kid: You could compete on a horse who didn’t start out with fantastic movement.[/QUOTE]

I would like to do WD because I already own a horse with flat gaits. And I like her. I agree with what you’ve said, and like the idea that WD presents an opportunity for western riders to improve the quality of their gaits through training - not something that a lot of “local” western shows offer. I also like the idea of competing “with myself” rather than in a ring with 30 other pleasure horses and riders in sparkly outfits - that is the definition of NOT fun to me.

This horse will not be competitive with fancy warmbloods: https://scontent-a-lga.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xaf1/v/t1.0-9/302787_4468133673154_1459492825_n.jpg?oh=13c3065c545730c7bd5f0a07f3026359&oe=552EAC80

So, maybe WD will offer something for us to work toward.

[mvp]

[QUOTE=NoSuchPerson;7934637]

I was really shocked last year when I was talking to a local dressage trainer about mules in dressage and she said that you can’t be competitive around here in lower levels unless you had a horse with outstanding movement. In response to my “Whaa…?” she said that training level movements were so easy that any horse could be trained to do them, so the only way to differentiate one from another was the natural movement of the horse. She said it wasn’t until upper levels that you could begin to compensate for less than stellar movement with other qualities.[/QUOTE]

Here’s how the phenomenon has been explained to me.

1. The purpose of competitive dressage is to cultivate and reward the kind of training that improves any horse. To me, that means it gets the horse to use his body (such as it is) in the best way he can. Though people speak less of it (at least in DressageWorld vs. some parts of WesternWorld), that should also mean that you train the horse’s mind. IMO, the goal for a made horse should be an animal who likes and understands his job.

2. The quality of the gaits (as well as the movements) should be an indication of how well (read: correctly) that horse has been trained. This is why, back in the day, you could show a bad-moving, well-trained horse and have him compared to an absolute standard. The judge would ask how well a horse build as he was could move, thanks to correct training, as opposed to how well he was bred to move.

3. And then we started breeding better movers. Sometimes that means they were built to be more uphill. Sometimes that meant they were bred to have a body for which collection would be easier. Sometimes that meant they were bred to have lots of suspension (originating from the lower legs), or they had a body that allowed them to look light on the ground, with pretty suspension having sources higher up, too. Sometime that meant breeding horses with exceptional shoulder girdles, such that front legs thrown out extravagantly is easy for them, rather than hard but a product of fantastic training and conditioning.

So in this modern moment with a lot of “purpose bred”, pretty, uphill movers out there…… and the quality of gaits meant to reflect training rather than pure biomechanics…. what is a judge supposed to do? Isn’t it just easier to reward the best-moving horse rather than ask whether the flatter-moving little grade horse is nevertheless doing the very best he can with the body he has? IMO, that latter form of judging takes more skill (as well as time and money to produce).

And there are so many lower level riders who want to compete…. and it costs so much to even own a show horse, that you see a lot of people buying great movers. That’s because they can. It’s also because they might not have what it takes to ever ride at the higher levels where training starts to trump great, inborn gaits.

[CLB15]

In my area western dressage tests are judged by educated & licensed dressage judges… not judges of western sports that are educated in dressage.
From what I’ve watched, it is the “dressage” horses that often out perform the ranch/trail versatility or reining horses (having read a couple score cards, comments include saying horse needs to show more impulsion, track up, accept more solid contact… Things that some of the well bred stock horses that received those comments may never do “up to par” with a dressage horse).
An intro/training/first level test can be done on the same horse in both English and western tack, so it can definitely bring in greater participation, but as a brand new sport I don’t really think if it as a “western” discipline.

ETA- I’m in a predominantly “English” area. Maybe in other parts of the county where the horse sports are more diverse, western dressage is different

[KIloBright]

Qoute:

having read a couple score cards, comments include saying horse needs to show more impulsion, track up, accept more solid contact… Things that some of the well bred stock horses that received those comments may never do “up to par” with a dressage horse).
An intro/training/first level test can be done on the same horse in both English and western tack, so it can definitely bring in greater participation, but as a brand new sport I don’t really think if it as a “western” discipline.’

Response:

That sounds fine to me, and much how the Alberta Horse Improvement worked, far as the comments and being able to ride the pattern English or Western
I had to make sure that my horse, even being a stock horse, moved with lots of impulsion, even ridden western, but I rode with two hands and a snaffle.

This all brings me back to the point that WD has the requirements of dressage, far as more bit contact ect, so why in the heck are western curbs , ridden with two hands allowed!!!. It is not the class or concept that bothers me, but that incorrect bit allowance, where people riding WD want to not only ride in a western saddle, but then use that curb bit in a manner designed for correctly riding with a snaffle, in an English, not western manner.( ie constant moderate contact )

[mvp]

[QUOTE=KIloBright;7937562]
Qoute:

having read a couple score cards, comments include saying horse needs to show more impulsion, track up, accept more solid contact… Things that some of the well bred stock horses that received those comments may never do “up to par” with a dressage horse).
An intro/training/first level test can be done on the same horse in both English and western tack, so it can definitely bring in greater participation, but as a brand new sport I don’t really think if it as a “western” discipline.’

Response:

That sounds fine to me, and much how the Alberta Horse Improvement worked, far as the comments and being able to ride the pattern English or Western
I had to make sure that my horse, even being a stock horse, moved with lots of impulsion, even ridden western, but I rode with two hands and a snaffle.

This all brings me back to the point that WD has the requirements of dressage, far as more bit contact ect, so why in the heck are western curbs , ridden with two hands allowed!!!. It is not the class or concept that bothers me, but that incorrect bit allowance, where people riding WD want to not only ride in a western saddle, but then use that curb bit in a manner designed for correctly riding with a snaffle, in an English, not western manner.( ie constant moderate contact )[/QUOTE]

The first part of quoted section strikes me as right… at least so far. I believe some Dressagers are going to saddle up their horses in different tack, ride those horses the same way and clean up over the stock-bred horses.

I hope to God this doesn’t happen; it doesn’t seem fair to the folks who really like the qualities of those breeds who–unfortunately from a dressage standpoint-- haven’t been bred to have the conformation and movement that match up to the ideal set by the modern, purpose-bred WB.

Now, if one required that folks actually learn to take their western horses through the Vaquero-like progression of snaffle to hackamore to bosality and spade bit, to “straight up in the bridle”, then you’d have a distinct, worthwhile (and very difficult) discipline.

I think all horses do benefit from being trained to use their body as (uncorrupted) dressage would have it. But there is more than one way to get there and all of dressage world’s insistence on a horse pressing into contact with the bit isn’t the only way. A horse can be taught to use his body like an upper-level dressage horse AND have a very, very different relationship with the bit.

In other words, I’d like to see WD remain Western in the sense that it takes a very different (and great) training philosophy from Vaquero world. Modern (German influenced) training philosophy just doesn’t have it. And IMO, not all horses benefit from being ridden in the way that German training tends to go.

So the dressagers like me who really want to do WD? We should be learning how to make hackamore- and bridle horses… while we still want the horse to use his body with the impulsion and uphill stance we’d have in dressage world. And boy-howdy, that’s going to be a long-term and expensive project for an interested rider.

[CLB15]

Agreed, KIloBright! When all the different groups were vying for “official” status, our most local GMO followed the rules of one where a snaffle could be used by horses of any age & any level, but IF a rider chose to use a curb it had to be at the 1st level equivalent and was to be used one handed. Just because you can hold reins with 2 hands doesn’t mean it’s proper, just because you school with draw reins doesn’t make it acceptable to use in a show ring, just because a western saddle has a horn doesn’t mean someone needs to hold onto it… If your horse is educated enough to wear a curb bit then I think a rider- even if they school with 2 hands on the reins, should be able to step into a competition arena to demonstrate their abilities & the horse’s training by using their equipment in it’s intended purpose.

I have yet to see a ranch pleasure, reining, etc. pattern that calls for free walk, stretching trot or leg yields… Just makes me feel more strongly that this is not “really” a discipline to demonstrate improvements of a western horse, with dressage basics.

I have a ranch broke horse- turned lesson horse, that was backwards & upside down when I got him a few months ago. I wanted to make him more supple, balanced & responsive FOR trail riding & some versatility events- I would never want him to “ride” like a dressage horse. Dressage exercises have helped, but we wouldn’t stand a chance in a WD arena around here The idea of WD is a good one but I think they missed the mark

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10100375470326430&set=a.577269709890.2106668.17909493&type=1
(Hoping I don’t kick myself for sharing this photo- “before” on the left (~October, with my mother), most recent are on the right (Last week, with me)