EPM treatment "just in case"?

[morganpony86]

My new trainer is pushing EPM treatment (Marquis) for my horse. It appears they essentially treat the entire barn at one point or another; the reasoning for treating my horse is because he’s thin. I’m 99.9% sure he’s not thin because of EPM (he’s thin because he had a poor diet before, moved north in the middle of winter, and is back in full work for the first time in years). However, after my insistence of this, and expression of my overall hesitation to treat for a disease without clinical symptoms, the trainer is insisting that “even if it’s not EPM, Marquis will do a full flush of his system and he’ll be so much healthier!” I don’t intend to blood test him, since pretty much every horse comes up positive.

Anyone ever heard of treating EPM without overt clinical symptoms?
Related question: how expensive is the full Marquis treatment?

[GraceLikeRain]

I know of a VBNT in my area who pushes this on every single client. Personally, I will not treat for anything “just in case” with perhaps the exception of ulcers with a new horse to ensure a clean slate.

I would be looking at a basic blood panel and fecal test before looking at EPM.

[Highflyer]

Yes, I’ve run into a few racehorse trainers that do it as a preventative. It’s a dumb idea that can actually cause resistance and ultimately make the drug useless. If the horse doesn’t have EPM it won’t do any good. It costs $600-$800/ month depending on where you get the Marquis (maybe more if it’s from a vet.)

[Scribbler]

The trainer is an idiot, at least in regard to mammal physiology. Nothing can “flush the system” of a mammal and make him “so much healthier.” She is asking you to give a fairly high-powered and specialized anthelmintic on the off-chance that your horse is carrying a particular parasite. No anthelmintic (anti-parasite medicine) is risk free, even the usual run of wormers aimed at GI parasites. And as we’ve learned from the latter, indiscriminate use of wormers “just in case” has lead to serious problems with worms developing resistance to wormers.

Giving extra wormers does not make the horse “so much healthier” or “flush the system” or do anything except kill worms. And the antithelmintics are by definition low-level toxic substances, so why would you want to over-treat with them?? Marquis is not a “general tonic” or a vitaimin supplement, and would have zero positive effect on a horse’s health other than to kill these specific parasites if they were present in the horse’s system,

The official label for Marquis does not recommend using it “just in case,” and points out that symptoms may be due to other factors.

[Scribbler]

http://marquis.merial.com/Pages/marquis-Label.aspx

[Larbear]

[QUOTE=morganpony86;9036806]
the trainer is insisting that “even if it’s not EPM, Marquis will do a full flush of his system and he’ll be so much healthier!” [/QUOTE]

Whaa? A full flush of what?!? I’d be saying a big hell no to that!

If I suspected my horse had EPM I’d be doing testing first.

[morganpony86]

Thanks for the replies. FYI, horse had a full CBC/chem done a month ago and fecals done every quarter. He’s fine. As I said, the lack of weight gain is almost certainly because he’s back in work and actually using the calories.

I thought this was crazy, as I had already read the FOI for it and it was clearly a true treatment, not some “supplement” as I originally suspected it may be. But this is a rather BNT in the area and I haven’t been following EPM at all for the last few years so I was wondering if I was missing something. When I expressed a concern about professionals willy-nilly giving other treatments with no clinical symptoms (e.g. tildren/osphos), she insisted the barn does not do that and has a full team of professionals who support their practices. Then said we’d revisit the Marquis in a couple months.

[Scribbler]

Consult with your vet, or your previous vet, or a vet that isn’t making $$$ off your trainer.

[goodhors]

I would not treat with Marquis unless horse has EPM issues, and only under Vet recommendation. Trainer is nuts.

Our horse with EPM was out of work for the month of treatment, trying to keep his stress as low as possible. Bet she doesn’t do that as part of her “Marquis purge treatment” of all the horses.

Cost of Marquis was about $800 for the month of treatment, last I heard.

[vxf111]

I’ve heard of this too and think it’s a bad idea

[LookmaNohands]

My horse had a 55% chance of EPM by a blood test. My vet likes to use Karbo Combo: http://www.karbostore.com/equine.html

It made a SIGNIFICANT difference in his balance and way of going. It is not a drug. I would be confident using it on a horse without a blood test if I had one that was questionable. I would never use Marquis like that. Karbo combo is cheap!

Several years ago I suspected another horse of having EPM so I tried Silver Lining Herb’s EPM program and that made a very clear difference in that horse.

I think there is a lot to be said for some of these supplements if the horse doesn’t have full blown EPM.

[AKB]

If you are worried, have a good vet do a complete neuro exam on your horse. If it normal, I would not test or treat. I would fatten the horse up so he doesn’t look skinny and unhealthy.

[Scribbler]

I hadn’t heard about Karbo Combo before. A quick google shows that it is based on mannan oligosacharides, which are a widely used prebiotic in livestock, and in fact are derived from the same yeast that is in my human probiotic.

The Karbo Combo website states that the product attracts and kills viruses and bacteria. These seems plausible as the yeast Saccharomyces cerevisiae is meant to attract and kill E coli bacteria. But I’m not sure how this is going to work on the EPM parasites that are in the blood and tissues. First, there is no statement (even on the Karbo Combo website) that Saccharomyces cerevisiae binds up parasites. Second, I don’t see how a probiotic which aids gut flora is going to work on parasites in tissue or blood.

The other aspect of the Karbo Combo website is that they propose their product as a treatment for everything. While a good probiotic is a useful thing if you’re having intestinal issues, it’s not a cure all, and I don’t think you necessarily need to feed it long term once the gut has rebalanced. So while it may be a good probiotic, I suspect they are overpromising and overselling the product. Nothing out there can cure heaves, EPM, laminitis, and strangles. Four entirely unrelated diseases with unrelated causes and cures.

[ASB_Stars]

Anything that boosts the immune system is going to help ward off against infections of any derivation.

However, as the causative protozoans in EPM cross the blood brain barrier, and thereby cause issues in the spinal cord, I am not sure that any killing of the bugs will occur.

Just my .02

[findeight]

Marquis is an anti protozoal isn’t it? And many, if not most horses in effected areas will have been exposed but their immune system handles it? What in hades would dosing with that do for a healthy horse besides possibly build resistance in any Protozoa it was hosting that were under control? There are side effects, you know…

Where do these people get vets to go along with this BS? On top of the ethics of demanding all clients treat for it, the stuff is expensive. I bet trainer buys it, marks it up and administers it charging for that too.

Dont let some trainer bully you into something you know isn’t right or in the best interest of your horse. There ARE other trainers.

[LookmaNohands]

Scribbler, the only thing I can say is in my experience this has made a huge difference in my horse. One that the vet and farrier can see in his body condition and way of going. I know this vet has used it many times with horses with low percentage EPM.

If you were going to use something as a sort of preventative this might be it.

[findeight]

But for an entire barn full of horses displaying no symptoms and not testing positive? I don’t think so.

[EmilyM]

whatever happened to the good old Panacur PowerPac?

[findeight]

Power Pak won’t work on or reach protozoans, if it did we’d have licked the little bastards years ago.

[cloudyandcallie]

When the young TB gelding who was boarding at same barn where I had C&C turned out to have EPM (He’d had a sore back and sore hooves and had been a hard keeper for over a year before I moved mine there, so he was already in advanced EPM) was finally, when he nearly fell while preparing for a show the next day, diagnosed with EPM, I panically called my vet and asked if I should give C&C a course of Marquis to protect them. The EPM horse was in the paddock right by Cloudy.

My vet said all horses in coastal GA would probably test positive for exposure to EPM since we have so many opossums, so he said no need to give the Marquis. Neither Cloudy nor Callie got EPM, thank God. I would have had them treated if my vet had agreed with me.

The poor EPM horse was too far gone. They shipped him off, I do not know where because so many people lied about his illness. He did do a round of Marquis, but I moved C&C to another barn. I’d still give mine the Marquis if my vet had agreed to my request. I did add more and more vitamins and supplements to their diets to try to ward off diseases. Callie was old and Cloudy was young at the time. I would never want to go through the EPM disease after I saw that poor TB gelding be considered difficult when he was sick and had been sick for a long time.