Thanks for the info–I look forward to researching, however, how are people who are buying horses from the track, or picking up horses at auction supposed to know if a horse has had EPO??
You only know when it’s too late.
I know of a few trainers who are likely users based on personal experiences with horses, but the common non-tracker has no way of knowing.
[QUOTE=DickHertz;3925560]
I’ve claimed horses who were given EPO, including one just last month. What I’ve found that works is:
1x per week for six weeks
Caco Copper with Iron
Delvorex
Hemo 15
Liver 7
Levothyroxine
1 Ringers Jug 2x per week
It’s not really that expensive either. What I know is this has helped me with horses I know very likely had EPO. This was based on a recommendation from a good vet. You gotta flush out the kidneys and keep supplementing with iron or you will lose the battle with EPO. Eventually you start decreasing the iron. Overdosing iron on a normal horse has adverse effects, but you need to supplement with iron to help the body keep up with the influx of RBC’s.[/QUOTE]
Thank you! I appreciate it. I’ve had the guy on Lixotinic (among other things) and it hasn’t done anything.
[QUOTE=FairWeather;3925826]
Thanks for the info–I look forward to researching, however, how are people who are buying horses from the track, or picking up horses at auction supposed to know if a horse has had EPO??
You only know when it’s too late.
I know of a few trainers who are likely users based on personal experiences with horses, but the common non-tracker has no way of knowing.[/QUOTE]
That is the hard part. I’d love to post 7-8 traiiners who I think are 90% of the problem in the Mid-Atlantic, but I’m sure they would get taken down. Fairweather, I will PM you those I know with about 99% certainty use it because I know you take in a lot of horses.
[QUOTE=Las Olas;3926016]
Thank you! I appreciate it. I’ve had the guy on Lixotinic (among other things) and it hasn’t done anything.[/QUOTE]
The main thing is to treat and assume it was on EPO as soon as you get the horse. Often, if they know they are getting rid of the horse they won’t continue treatments and the time before crash might be right around the corner.
I think I may have been lucky because my experience is when the probably just had it and was so proactive that I was able to help with the letdown. The one I’ve just had for a month so maybe he’ll go anotehr direction but it did run back 2nd off the claim.
Iron is critical. If you don’t help the liver keep up, the organ will fail.
[QUOTE=DickHertz;3925560]
I’ve claimed horses who were given EPO, including one just last month. What I’ve found that works is:
1x per week for six weeks
Caco Copper with Iron
Delvorex
Hemo 15
Liver 7
Levothyroxine
1 Ringers Jug 2x per week
It’s not really that expensive either. What I know is this has helped me with horses I know very likely had EPO. This was based on a recommendation from a good vet. You gotta flush out the kidneys and keep supplementing with iron or you will lose the battle with EPO. Eventually you start decreasing the iron. Overdosing iron on a normal horse has adverse effects, but you need to supplement with iron to help the body keep up with the influx of RBC’s.[/QUOTE]
Once a horse is off the EPO, I would NOT supplement with iron. As the EPO clears the system (and it will very quickly unless the were on Aranesp), the red cell count is gonna crash. As this happens all kinds of iron will be released. Horses tend to store iron anyway, so you are going to really iron overload them if you supplement them with iron after they are off EPO. Iron overload can also damage organs, so I’s stay away from it.
The real killer with EPO is the antibodies. If the horse has antibodies there are some other ways to manage that have been tried in dogs and cats with some success. If they have not yet made antibodies, they should recover fine.
[QUOTE=sk_pacer;3904745]
Is there a particular reason you want to play with fire? EPO is illegal and dangerous - just as the cyclists that used it and ask about their dead competitors. Ask trainers who claimed blood doped horses how the horses never recovered or just up and died. Long term use produces death - first unthrifiness, then death, no mention of founder in anything I read, but the articles were pretty non-specific. The blood does become thick, very thick and cannot carry nutrients after a time and in many casees, never returns to normal. The fines for blood doiping can be tens of thousands of dollars and come with an instant life time suspension.
Procrit and Epogen were developed originally for people with pernicious anaemia and is still prescribed for that and similar diseases but not for long term use - the inserts are filled with warnings of caution against overdosing, side effects and contraindications. It may cause heart attack, stroke, clotting problems, thick blood, and a whole string of other complaints. There is a wealth of information on human use of the drugs, just takes a bit of digging. Like any other drug, it has its uses, but it is hard to take a human drug and translate the dosage and effects to a large animal. There IS a canine/feline version of EPO, but you still have to be careful administering the drug to the patient.
An older article from Monticello track http://www.recordonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070218/SPORTS/702180350
Another frmo Thorougbred Times http://www.thoroughbredtimes.com/horse-health/2000/July/08/Deadly-performance-enhancer.aspx[/QUOTE]
I agree, it’s a really stupid thing to give a horse,
but minor correction. There is no dog/cat version. They tried to make it but still ended up with antibodies for the cat version and the dog version never went anywhere, so people use the human forms in dogs and cats. They also have the same problems seen in horses with pure red cell aplasia so it’s considered a salvage treatment. Fortunately there are new things on the horizon that may help.
I don’t know if its still on the market but the first drug like this that came into use on horses was a canine drug for anemia called oxyglobin.
[QUOTE=foggybok;3978207]
Once a horse is off the EPO, I would NOT supplement with iron. As the EPO clears the system (and it will very quickly unless the were on Aranesp), the red cell count is gonna crash. As this happens all kinds of iron will be released. Horses tend to store iron anyway, so you are going to really iron overload them if you supplement them with iron after they are off EPO. Iron overload can also damage organs, so I’s stay away from it.
.[/QUOTE]
I’m just speaking to what has worked very well for me in real life experiences. Your theory of iron varies greatly from vets i’ve had this discussion with. Who knows, I just know what has worked for me if given early - IE once the horse is transferred.
[QUOTE=Laurierace;3978275]
I don’t know if its still on the market but the first drug like this that came into use on horses was a canine drug for anemia called oxyglobin.[/QUOTE]
oxyglobin is different. It is just polymerized hemoglobin so it carries oxygen like a red cell would. EPO increases the body’s own hemoglobin level and red cell count. Oxyglobin is probably safer, but it is only effective when it’s in the system so easily tested for. Plus it has a short hlaf life And oxyglobin does have bad effects if used to much or too often… I wouldn’t use it either. It’s use should be limited to animals that have had massive blood loss or acute anemia, and just to get them through the crisis. That’s what it was designed for.
[QUOTE=DickHertz;3978514]
I’m just speaking to what has worked very well for me in real life experiences. Your theory of iron varies greatly from vets i’ve had this discussion with. Who knows, I just know what has worked for me if given early - IE once the horse is transferred.[/QUOTE]
Glad to hear it works for you. But I’d still say your taking a chance that you could make things worse by adding iron. I know there are a lot of differing opinions out there, but I study this stuff for a living. The kidney and liver damage you are seeing is most likely related to the breakdown of extra red cells. When you pump and animal up with EPO, it want’s to normalize itself and if you stop the EPO, those red cells will be destroyed much faster than normal. This releases a LOT of iron. If you stop excessive eryththropoiesis in any species, you’ll see spikes in liver function tests a month or so out. And free heme is deadly to kidneys. With an animal that has been polycythemic for a while, you will see hemolysis in the blood.
I think your fluid management is good
Why the thyroid med? Just curious, not a criticism.
[QUOTE=foggybok;3979286]
oxyglobin is different. It is just polymerized hemoglobin so it carries oxygen like a red cell would. EPO increases the body’s own hemoglobin level and red cell count. Oxyglobin is probably safer, but it is only effective when it’s in the system so easily tested for. Plus it has a short hlaf life And oxyglobin does have bad effects if used to much or too often… I wouldn’t use it either. It’s use should be limited to animals that have had massive blood loss or acute anemia, and just to get them through the crisis. That’s what it was designed for.[/QUOTE]
It was still the first drug of its kind used in horses however. I remember I was on the horse welfare and safety board in PA. I was at a meeting and Dr. Soma from NBC who was also on the board was telling us that it was the new up and coming thing and they couldn’t figure out a way to test for it. Obviously this was years ago and they did eventually figure it out and the juicers moved on to bigger and better things, but it was interesting to see it evolve.
[QUOTE=Laurierace;3979338]
It was still the first drug of its kind used in horses however. I remember I was on the horse welfare and safety board in PA. I was at a meeting and Dr. Soma from NBC who was also on the board was telling us that it was the new up and coming thing and they couldn’t figure out a way to test for it. Obviously this was years ago and they did eventually figure it out and the juicers moved on to bigger and better things, but it was interesting to see it evolve.[/QUOTE]
No debate on that point…At the time that came out, I was working on another oxygen carrier called Oxygent. It was a perflurocarbon oxygen carrier. We got calls all the time from horse folks to see if it was available. We said no and it wouldn’t have worked anyway since you needed 100% inspired oxygen for it to work. I’m sure people would have tried it anyway…Actually, I’m sure somebody has, since there are other forms out there if you really want to use them… I really wish we could keep better control…It’s so hard to test for everything… Pretty soon horses will be sleeping in hypoxic tents like the bikers…Oh, I suppose they already do somewhere… aye yi yi…
I know still goes against what you are saying, but the iron is only for the first 30-45 days then you back off because as I said earlier it can hurt the horse.
[QUOTE=DickHertz;3979568]
I know still goes against what you are saying, but the iron is only for the first 30-45 days then you back off because as I said earlier it can hurt the horse.[/QUOTE]
Out of curiosity, how often do you see this? It’s scary if you are seeing a lot… There’s a new drug (not available yet), but when it is, I’m afraid it will be used a lot. Trying to figure out how to keep it off the track, as detection will be harder than with EPO.
[QUOTE=foggybok;3979932]
Out of curiosity, how often do you see this? It’s scary if you are seeing a lot… There’s a new drug (not available yet), but when it is, I’m afraid it will be used a lot. Trying to figure out how to keep it off the track, as detection will be harder than with EPO.[/QUOTE]
I would say there are about 10 trainers in the Mid-Atlantic region who are using it. A couple who are verifiable are DC, SB and BF. I have no idea if the problem is bad in other parts of the country. Only Delaware is testing for EPO. Charles Town tried to rule off Amy Albright and they lost in court so they’d rather just let the cheaters prosper than try and pursue it and it’s not 100% their fault because there is no real definitive test (although I’ve heard so many stories about whether there is a test or not I don’t know if there is one or not).
[QUOTE=DickHertz;3980394]
I would say there are about 10 trainers in the Mid-Atlantic region who are using it. A couple who are verifiable are DC, SB and BF. I have no idea if the problem is bad in other parts of the country. Only Delaware is testing for EPO. Charles Town tried to rule off Amy Albright and they lost in court so they’d rather just let the cheaters prosper than try and pursue it and it’s not 100% their fault because there is no real definitive test (although I’ve heard so many stories about whether there is a test or not I don’t know if there is one or not).[/QUOTE]
The direct tests are difficult, especially with EPO, as it’s not in the system long. Aranesp is easier since it stays around forever. They seem to be using indirect tests, which have downfalls as well. Not all horses will make antibodies, so the antibody test will probably miss 70%. The Transferrin receptor test is indirect as well, but a good indicator. I wonder what the resting HCT values are in the doped animals. In human sports they limit the HCT to 51%. This would be hard to implement in horses as any excitement will cause them to dump their spleen and after a race they are gonna be high anyway… There are a few new things coming down the line that are just going to add to this problem. I just wish these folks would realize what a dumb thing it is to do to the horse…perhaps they do and just don’t care…
