Equine Insurance Question--special circumstances....

[One_Two_Three]

Okay so long story short, I want to insure my new OTTB. I’m mostly concerned with Major Medical and Emergency Colic Surgery. I have received several quotes, and all do things differently and have very different prices for seemingly the same coverages. I work in Insurance but never have I dabbled in equine insurance, so it’s really different than what I am experienced in.

Anyhow, I got a very attractive quote from Broadstone through Hartford. The only issue was when it came to proving the value of my horse. He was a trade. The agent told me to just prove that the horse I traded was worth X. However, the horse was green, and very much worth X+more, but I did all the training myself. I got discouraged and stopped e-mailing back and forth regarding the value because I just don’t know how to prove horse’s worth with MY training. They are looking for receipts and references.

Anyhow, I was told that my OTTB could be valued based off the purse of his last claiming race, or something to that extent, but then I heard that’s no longer a thing.

Anyone in a similar situation? How did that work out? The bill of sale says $1 on it for the trade. I’m looking at something like $5,000 mortality & major medical. Nothing extreme until this horse’s training progresses and we do start showing…

[GoForAGallop]

Despite my horse being free, The Hartford was more than happy to value her at $1000 (with no “proof” needed), while still allowing me to purchase $10k in mortality and medical.

That was three or four years ago, and I believe that they have changed their policies slightly, but there’s no reason you can’t value the horse at $1k and yet get a larger sum for medical.

Won’t give you anything if the horse keels over, of course, but it will give you the safety net of coverage for medical reasons. And then, after a year of owning/showing/training horse, you can raise the value for mortality.

[Laurierace]

You can insure race horses for their claiming price but only while they are racing. Race horses are not eligible for MM.

[One_Two_Three]

[QUOTE=GoForAGallop;8102793]
Despite my horse being free, The Hartford was more than happy to value her at $1000 (with no “proof” needed), while still allowing me to purchase $10k in mortality and medical.

That was three or four years ago, and I believe that they have changed their policies slightly, but there’s no reason you can’t value the horse at $1k and yet get a larger sum for medical.

Won’t give you anything if the horse keels over, of course, but it will give you the safety net of coverage for medical reasons. And then, after a year of owning/showing/training horse, you can raise the value for mortality.[/QUOTE]

Something with the company made the lady say that I couldn’t insure for less than $5,000 to get the major medical. That I could raise the major medical to 7500, 10000, etc, but that the Mortality had to be $5,000 minimum, and the mortality had to reflect the value of the horse. It’s all in the ‘grey area’ as I call it in my own line of work.

Why too, then, did the quotes I got vary so severely? Both had a $300 deductible, same coverage limits, but one came back at $368 for the year, and the other $750. I just want to have some reimbursement should the horse hurt himself or get sick. Not even looking for the mortality, I would be fine with $1,000, or a $1 even. That’s not my concern. It’s just getting something back on the vet bill that I would be most interested in

[One_Two_Three]

[QUOTE=Laurierace;8102794]
You can insure race horses for their claiming price but only while they are racing. Race horses are not eligible for MM.[/QUOTE]

That was my understanding as well. Since he’s retired and his jockey club papers are now stamped retired, he has no ‘racehorse’ in his career. So that shouldn’t matter to them any longer, right?

[GoForAGallop]

[QUOTE=One Two Three;8102811]
Something with the company made the lady say that I couldn’t insure for less than $5,000 to get the major medical. That I could raise the major medical to 7500, 10000, etc, but that the Mortality had to be $5,000 minimum, and the mortality had to reflect the value of the horse. It’s all in the ‘grey area’ as I call it in my own line of work.

Why too, then, did the quotes I got vary so severely? Both had a $300 deductible, same coverage limits, but one came back at $368 for the year, and the other $750. I just want to have some reimbursement should the horse hurt himself or get sick. Not even looking for the mortality, I would be fine with $1,000, or a $1 even. That’s not my concern. It’s just getting something back on the vet bill that I would be most interested in[/QUOTE]

Well, like I said, this was three or four years ago now, so it’s perfectly possible they implemented a $5k minimum mortality. Most companies have $15k as the minimum.

As far as the quotes being different…did you look beyond the coverage limits? I know, for example, that The Hartford only covers 50% of special diagnostics. A lot of the other companies offer much more, like 80%, or 100% after the deductible has been met. So that allows The Hartford to offer much better annual premiums. This is fine until you’re like me, last year, on the hook for $1500 for a bone scan since insurance only covered half. :lol: (They do cover 100% of x-rays, ultrasounds, other “normal” diagnostics.)

[IPEsq]

Did you ask about copays? That could be the difference in the premiums for the MM at the same deductible. Lots of companies are requiring 20-30% copays now, but not all. And what about claim time limits?

[One_Two_Three]

You guys are right–the hartford plan offers something like 30% for diagnostics. I’m not sure what the policy outlines on the other quote, she never sent me the literature. It is also helpful to note that the hartford policy does not cover therapeutic shoes, things of that nature, and I’ve heard other policies DO cover these types of Rx’s, including body work and chiropractic evaluation. Again, do I necessarily need these? No. But, diagnostics sometimes cost as much as treatment so thanks for reminding me of that. That makes a difference!

[Laurierace]

[QUOTE=One Two Three;8102814]
That was my understanding as well. Since he’s retired and his jockey club papers are now stamped retired, he has no ‘racehorse’ in his career. So that shouldn’t matter to them any longer, right?[/QUOTE]
Right, I was just clarifying the part of your question about insuring for claiming purse.

[One_Two_Three]

[QUOTE=Laurierace;8102832]
Right, I was just clarifying the part of your question about insuring for claiming purse.[/QUOTE]

no worries just wanted to make sure I was following

[vxf111]

Can you have an appraisal done? Will they accept that? Might be worthwhile.

[One_Two_Three]

[QUOTE=vxf111;8102923]
Can you have an appraisal done? Will they accept that? Might be worthwhile.[/QUOTE]

That’s something that I could probably have done, but this horse has literally NO off track training. While he is coming along JUST AMAZINGLY for having run his last race February 27th, I don’t think there’s much to appraise, since most want to base their appraisal off of his show and training record. We just trotted for our first time Saturday.

I might just have to hold off for a few months until he’s got something to go off of. I was jut hoping to get him all done up for the year right now. I like my ducks in a row, not floating around the pond scattered

[vxf111]

[QUOTE=One Two Three;8102942]
That’s something that I could probably have done, but this horse has literally NO off track training. While he is coming along JUST AMAZINGLY for having run his last race February 27th, I don’t think there’s much to appraise, since most want to base their appraisal off of his show and training record. We just trotted for our first time Saturday.

I might just have to hold off for a few months until he’s got something to go off of. I was jut hoping to get him all done up for the year right now. I like my ducks in a row, not floating around the pond scattered :-D[/QUOTE]

If he’s nice with potential, even a greenie will probably appriase for $5k.

[One_Two_Three]

[QUOTE=vxf111;8102961]
If he’s nice with potential, even a greenie will probably appriase for $5k.[/QUOTE]

I’m going to have to look into it. That’s where I’m at with it too. If I had to sell him tomorrow I wouldn’t ask for less than $5,000 for him. Valid option. HM!

[soloudinhere]

I just moved my policy over to XL Group (ironically, they’re a client of mine, so I guess they are paying for my policy…oops) and they cover 70% of diagnostics with a possible waiver to get that to 100%. Their coverage maximums were also way higher than the hartford.

The difference in premium for $10k/$10k was literally $40, so I went with the more comprehensive policy.

I was not able to find an insurer who would do less than $5k mortality to get major medical and major medical was limited to the value of the mortality policy, so you’d be looking at $5k major medical, which is not enough to cover most surgical intervention.

Additionally, the Hartford caps the TOTAL payout for alternative therapies to 10% of the major medical cap, per TREATMENT, not per incident-- so if you needed shockwave, you get $500 of shockwave for the year and that’s it. That doesn’t go far either.

[Flash44]

The problem is that your “word” is not sufficient documentation of the value of the horse for the purpose of underwriting. The company requires outside documentation because who is to say the horse is worthless, especially since you only paid $1 for him. The problem is that in the past, really bad people bought cheap horses, insured them for more than they were worth, killed them, and collected on the claim. I had a $1 horse that I insured for $7500, but by then, I established a show record and was able to get a letter from my trainer stating his value. I understand, in the OP situation, how an appraisal may be necessary at this time. Or take him to some shows and get his record going.

[ZELLA]

A key part of the insured value allowed relates to how long you’ve owned this horse since acquiring him for $1. If this is a very recent purchase, you might have difficulty in getting approval for a $5k value. This is largely due to the number of $1 horses out there these days. Most companies will allow a nominal $2,500 or so for gift horses, but it varies by insurer. Also, not many will allow a med limit greater than the horse’s insured value anymore. Try giving Hallmark Equine Insurance a call. They have a program that can cater to horses with lower values, and it might work for you.

[Guilherme]

Equine MM insurance is property insurance. The owner of property to be insured has the duty to put a value on it. The company then can accept it or reject it (either outright or by requiring modification).

If this were a car or tractor there are “blue books” that cover value. With horses no such thing exists. An appraisal might help but I suspect you’re looking at at least a few hundred bucks to be told that your horse isn’t worth much.

The short answer is that this horse is likely worth about what the Bill of Sale says it is. The world is awash in $1 horses of all types and breeds. The value will increase as the OP puts training on it. They can likely get an insurer to do a nominal value of a couple of thousand dollars but that might also be reflected in the premium (i.e., will raise it).

G.

[One_Two_Three]

[QUOTE=Guilherme;8104119]
Equine MM insurance is property insurance. The owner of property to be insured has the duty to put a value on it. The company then can accept it or reject it (either outright or by requiring modification).

If this were a car or tractor there are “blue books” that cover value. With horses no such thing exists. An appraisal might help but I suspect you’re looking at at least a few hundred bucks to be told that your horse isn’t worth much.

The short answer is that this horse is likely worth about what the Bill of Sale says it is. The world is awash in $1 horses of all types and breeds. The value will increase as the OP puts training on it. They can likely get an insurer to do a nominal value of a couple of thousand dollars but that might also be reflected in the premium (i.e., will raise it).

G.[/QUOTE]

YES, I understand that in their eyes he is worth $1. My question is HOW to prove his worth. As the broadstone lady put it, I have to prove the horse I traded was worth X amount. But she wasn’t very helpful in telling me how to do that aside from showing receipts. Except there are no receipts because I didn’t pay to train the last horse (just as I don’t plan to pay to train this one either)…

Obviously getting the horse to shows will help, but seeing as the horse is barely past his 30 day let down off track, we’re a little ways off from that happening. I guess maybe I just need to self insure until he’s gotten a bit of a show record and some ‘worth’ to be insured.

[vxf111]

Is it too late to restructure the deal? Where the bill of sale says the horse is being sold for $5000 and the pony is also being sold for $5000? Rather than a trade? It would benefit them too if they want to insure the pony. Not saying you SHOULD do this… just throwing it out as an idea.