Equipment - Harness Saddle question

[barnrat999]

Hi all! I’m relatively new to driving. My friends introduced me with their driving horse, and I caught the bug. I started taking lessons on seasoned horses with a local instructor, and also plan to continue working with my young (6) horse towards being a driving horse one day. After her first lesson, I have a few questions I was hoping to just see if anyone else had input on to start some of my research. I’m going to try to keep my background short, but feel free to skip to my questions.

I took my girl to her first lesson yesterday with my driving instructor. We mostly ground drove and long lined her in the lesson, and used one of my harnesses for it. Unfortunately, whether it was the quality of the saddle itself, or the metal loop for the turnback strap (if there is a name, I am so sorry, I am still learning it all), got caught underneath the saddle, she had a good-sized lump on her spine underneath the saddle after. I feel absolutely horrible about it, and clearly, I need to make either an adjustment or figure something else out.

After chatting with my driving friends, they suggested buying a harness saddle with the intention of gradually acquiring the rest of the parts over time as we progress towards eventually hitching and pulling a cart. I am in no rush to hitch her; she is the type who is physically one age, but mentally a year or two younger. So, if we take our time, I’ll be okay with that. Additionally, she’s also my riding horse, and my instructor is only in the area for half the year. So we really are in no huge rush to get to the hitching part, but I do regularly long-line her, and having something that fits better would be nicer to have sooner rather than later.

My instructor has recommended buying a Zilco ZGB driving saddle for long lining in the past. I’m not sure if that’s still the recommendation, but I plan to ask when I go again on Monday. I like the idea it has adjustable pads so it would work for my horse, and then I could turn around and use it on my friends horse who I also do some long lining work with. My friends aren’t super familiar with the brand, so they were unsure if that would be a good investment.

I also know I will be buying her a new or gently used harness at some point. The used harnesses I have are ok, but honestly, the amish biothane one I’d be happy to toss out, and the one that gave the rub, well, clearly it doesn’t fit as well as I had hoped. Most likely will toss my Mattes half pad underneath in the meantime, as the biothane saddle rolls so much I really can’t use it for more than playing around.

Because I am the queen of researching and trying to make sure I have all the information before I make a decision, here are my questions for you all.

Any opinions on the Zilco driving equipment?
Is it smart to buy just the saddle first, and then slowly pick up the rest of the harness, especially as my horse is 6 and could have a surprise growth spurt?
Where should I start with brands and makers for said harness if it’s smart to slowly acquire the parts??

Thank you so much in advance for any advice.

[DMK]

Xilco is a fine brand, but it has a few different models so make sure you are mid-level or higher. The only complaint I ever hear about zilco is that it doesn’t hold up well in the deep south. Humidity isn’t its friend…

The 4 harness makers you generally hear of are zilco (Australia), yonies (Amish), ideal (Belgium or Netherlands) and IVC (Amish, very similar to yonies). All make great competition harness, but ideal definitely has the better entry level harness for the money in my opinion. Yonies only sells their competition harness through dealers like chrysalis acres, but their site will give you a good idea of cost of pieces as opposed to the entire harness.

I would recommend a to z horse driving for ideal, but IVC has zilco, their own brand and ideal so it gives you a broad choice on one website. I would lean towards the entire harness since most people move onto using it in ground work pretty quickly. The only piece I think you can hold off on is strangely enough, reins. They are too short for ground driving (for me, anyway) and the standard smooth beta reins are pretty much universally despised by all the upper level drivers I know. You want to feel out some different reins then get the ones that make you happy

[2DogsFarm]

What @DMK said.
I wouldn’t want to piece together a complete harness.
Though having a spare saddle isn’t a bad thing.
In the interim & because less expensive mini harnesses come with non-treed saddles*, I have a neoprene pad with a space for spine relief. Cost me $10, gets the saddle off his back until I can afford the beautiful IVC harness I covet.

*learn from my Fail.
My harness was custom-made by an Amish guy & I stupidly forgot to specify I wanted the saddle treed.
Yeah, I got the hatchet blinkers, rosette teardrop & buckle-in traces, but forgot the tree… & false martingale.
D’OH!

[DMK]

Which reminds me, you don’t want to mix and match pieces of harness unless you are a bit more experienced in this area (and by experienced I mean mistakes are expensive). I have a lot of mix and match pieces gained over the years, a comfy fit breast collar/traces with a yonies harness and special zilco tugs for telescoping tips. Both of those one offs required adaptation for the existing harness because I swear every harness maker uses a different width strap or has some cleverly place d ring that is critical for a specific type of equipment. In the case of the breast collar I never even thought to clarify which size buckles for the traces, so yeah, I got to order a new set for those as well. And when I ordered the zilco tugs I learned you needed a D ring at the bottom of the saddle to buckle down into, so that was another adjustment. But eventually I got smart and ordered an Ideal French collar to go with my IVC presentation harness and that worked out perfectly. And after that I swapped out all of my driving nose bands for dressage bridle nosebands since they are far superior. Again, it took a little bit of a modification for the gullet strap to attach, but nothing particularly difficult.

But when you are a newb to this stuff, you have no idea what you do not know when it comes to putting together a harness. Just the “is it metric or imperial” can finish you off!

[goodhors]

Totally agree with above information. Buying a complete harness is a better idea than going with pieces/parts as you develop the young horse. All the above makers mentioned will do a good job in providing a useable harness made with synthetic materials. Harness needs to fit as it comes out of the box, it will never “soften or shape to fit” like leather can over time. Not sure what kind of horse you have, but harness saddles tend to fit further back than riding saddles do, so measure horse appropriately for correct sizing. Getting everything at once, from the same maker, will have all parts fitting together without issue, as DMK said.

You will want will want a harness saddle with a tree in it to keep shaft’s weight off horse spine. You will also want a wider harness saddle to spread the shaft weight on a larger area of horse’s back. Since most horses are started with 2-wheel carts, shafts can carry a a fair amount of weight. Especially noticeable to horse when a person is getting in or out of the vehicle, adjusting their seating position, causing shaft weight to move up and down.

Reins should be long enough to run from bit thru your hands, with enough behind the hands to sit on the connecting buckle. This keeps rein ends out of your feet for safety. Get a width that is comfortable in your fingers, not too wide or too thin to cut into your skin. Length can vary depending on the vehicle, so measuring is best for getting the reins long enough. For training, fun driving, wider straps across chest, breeching around the rump, are better choices because they provide more surface for horse to push against. Thin straps may be attractive in the show ring on flat, groomed surfaces, but they tend to cut into horse who is moving weight and on hills, over rough ground.

We use 30ft long lines for ground work, so the circles are big, not tight on young bones. We walk a big circle inside the horse circle, no just twirling on your feet in the middle. Length allows line to come around rump, back to your hands, allowing control of both ends of the horse. Keeping horse “between the lines” allows much better horse body control. You can add large metal rings on saddle sides with a double ended snap down on horse sides. We do not use the rein terrets above horse’s back because horse can turn under the long lines and you lose control FAST!

I would look for a nice used harness now, with mare already 6yrs old. She might “fill out” a little more, but should have most of her growth done by now unless she is a big breed or from big parents. Our 17h Sporthorse mares had all their height by age 5yrs, but then filled out a lot putting on muscle, widening out until 7yrs. Geldings are the ones who usually change so much from 6-8yrs because they don’t have the hormones of mares and stallions limiting growth.

You might check for a local driving horse trainer to help you learn quicker. Take lessons with their trained horse to gain knowledge you can apply to your own horse. Driving clubs are around, you just need to find them to meet folks who can help you learn. Sally Walrond wrote an excellent book, Training The Driving Horse, for step-by-step learning. Used copies and new copies are readily available if you do a search.

Welcome to another fun direction to enjoy your horse!

[red_mares]

You can do a work harness piece-wise. Most saddle horse tack shops - Fennell’s, Winner’s Circle, ShowHorseTack, Bennett’s, etc. sell work harness that is very similar. It’s very adjustable and very durable. Mine has gone on everything from my big-bodied 12.2h pony to a 17h Saddlebred. It’s also pretty affordable, under $1K at Winner’s Circle (where mine came from 20 years ago).

What is very nice is that it’s very easy to convert this harness for groundwork. Pieces snap on and off, you can go from long-lining to driving in ~5 minutes. I had Mom’s Amish harness modified with a breast collar with snap on traces. The traces stay on the cart all the time. One of the perks of biothane harness is that you can hose down the horse & harness at the same time.

[barnrat999]

No I definitely agree with the metric or imperial part! I ordered a biothane surcingle last year, measured exactly how they asked and ended up with a surcingle that that was too small. It worked out for my friends pony, but it wasn’t so effective for my horse. The leather harness, the girth is way too small for my horse, and I got very lucky the girth for the cob fits on the leather harness.

[barnrat999]

I’ve heard a lot about Yonies, that’s what my friends have for their everyday harness, and have a leather one for their pleasure shows. I have this sneaky suspicion my horse will need something custom made, just because she’s so oddly shaped. Warmblood, 15 hands and petite.The cob harness is too big in places, but I suspect it’s made for a more round cob shaped horse with a bigger bum. I’m glad to see you mention holding off on reins because I was thinking I was going to. I am a rein diva in ridden work, so I’m holding off on that one until we know and I can get to a harness shop to put my hands on some reins. I liked the pair the school horse I drive uses, plain lightly padded leather, but my instructor mentioned they’re only really ok suitable for dressage or what we’re doing, he would use something different for his own horses doing CDE.

[barnrat999]

That was my instructors reasoning when I asked before. Spare saddle and it meant you didn’t need to take everything off every time you long lined.

Oh no!! I think my heart would be in my stomach. I was so curious about the reasoning behind treeless saddles for harness just because I did a lot of research on them for a riding saddles for my horse and ultimately she isn’t a confirmation that treeless saddles will benefit without serious pads to keep spinal clearance

[DMK]

That’s not a concern, most of the harness are mix and match. On IVC and chrysalis they have a handy measurement chart so they can assemble all the parts from the various stock sizes so you have the right harness. And for what it’s worth, they tend to run on the smaller side, I have a fjord that’s under 14’2 but wears a 75 blanket and he’s pretty much a horse size across the board. Also, a good hole punch is your friend!

Ideal is generally sold as a whole harness set, but again, if you know your measurements, they will probably swap out as needed.

And last, but not least, they do pay attention to the horse breed and age which they ask for. I bought mine when my fjord was just 4 so the erred on the side of caution, recognizing that this horse was likely to chonk up in a few years. Even at marathon fitness, they were not wrong.

The least adjustable piece is the blinkers, they really have to be correct, so pay special attention to that measurement. And get combi traces and quick release tugs. That will take care of you for the widest range of vehicles

[DMK]

My backstrap and breeching are snapped to a d ring on The saddle, for ease and safety as that allows me to release the entire mechanism in case of emergency. It also makes it ridiculously easy to use just the saddle

[2DogsFarm]

Adding to my Wishlist for that IVC Dream.
Current harness has those #@!* Conroy buckles that are next to impossible to undo one-handed.

[DMK]

Just add a snap. Mine didn’t come with one. But don’t use this one on your hold backs, just the back strap. Way too many people use it on the hold backs when you should only use a quick release shackle that is designed for flat straps… And is a pain in the ass to find

[2DogsFarm]

Confession:
I use hardware store snaps on my holdbacks.
These:

If I drove anything bigger, or at speed I’d get the correct ones.

[cabz]

When I started out driving, I bought a used harness and a cart that was too small for my horse. After showing one season with this outfit, i moved my horse to a driving barn. Needless to say, I was encouraged to purchase a more suitable harness and cart!! I used my new leather harness, purchased from Driving Essentials, as both my working and show harness. I eventually bought a partial Zilco harness and then bought what I needed, but again, I had knowledge and a knowledgeable person to guide me.

I would suggest the OP take lessons with a driving person, which I think she is doing and purchase either a new or used harness with the input with the experts!!!

Good luck and have fun!!! Driving is a blast!!! Unfortunately I lost my mare in November 2021 and no longer drive, but have a new horse, who I trail ride.

[red_mares]

My other 2 cents - be careful buying used harness. What looks good on a computer screen can be a death trap.

When I got back into showing, my trainer and I took 2 horses to a show. He’d just hung out his trainer shingle, so money was tight all around. He’d picked up a nice looking set of show harness for the customer whose horse I was showing. My first class, the harness broke when we reversed. @#$%^ We were scared to death for the next class, with the somewhat suicidal horse. The other set of show harness mine, that I’d bought new 10 or 15 years before, but was cleaned and conditioned annually or bi-annually even though it wasn’t used. That class went fine. I think we even beat someone. I trust this harness; I know how it’s been maintained.

When I bought the Hackney, I opted for a lower cost new harness over a used higher end harness. I don’t regret it. I laugh when people tell me how nice it is. It’s really not great, but my brass is spotless.

A couple years ago, I took 3 or 4 sets of harness and had all of the “usual suspects” - wrap straps, tug hangers, billets,etc. replaced. Some of the patent leather cracked in the process, but I’d rather that, than another wrap strap breaking.

[DMK]

That’s an understandable concern with a leather harness, but if a synthetic harness had clear pictures of each piece I would not have the same concerns.

[red_mares]

Very true. It’s not a big issue with synthetic. It’s also a bigger issue with fine harness, because, it’s well, fine. Although the tiny pieces don’t break, IME.

I did know someone who could wear out biothane harness. It was ugly, but not really unsafe. Although, that guy’s guardian angel was exhausted by the time he died.

[barnrat999]

The used biothane harness I have reminds me of this. It was deemed safe to drive in by my driving friends, but some pieces are very worn, and I don’t think I’d be comfortable using it past just playing around with it.

My friends highly recommend biothane for a first harness, and all the harnesses that I’ve used in lessons so far have been leather. I have a feeling that Biothane might be the way to go for a first harness, unless a very nice leather one drops into my lap. If nothing else, they’re pushing hard for a Yonies harness