Equitation for pentathalon

[JER]

Willesden, thanks for an on-topic response.

In triathlon, the clothing changes are minimal, limited to footwear and a bike helmet. In pentathlon, the disciplines require complete changes.

The UIPM did float the trisuit concept for the new format - at least for the swimming and laser run - but it was a no-go for the athletes.

The swim is a 200m pool swim. Your time earns you points on the pentathlon scoring table. To get maximum points, you were a tech race suit which is not the same thing as a trisuit, which would earn you a slower time. A swimming race suit is unsuitable for anything other than racing - many swimmers don’t even put it on until after their warm up or warm up with only the lower half on. By design, the suit is very compressive and somewhat restrictive in terms of movement. The fabric is not durable and tears easily (you only get a limited number of swims out of a race suit - and they’re expensive).

But comfort aside, the bigger issue is seconds count and you’re not going to give up those points by wearing a trisuit.

RIding requires - at minimum - breeches, shirt, half-chaps/boots, gloves, helmet. (I tried to change the jacket requirement to hilarious effect but that’s another story.)

Fencing requires its own set of protective clothing, all mandated by the rules for good reason (fencing instituted very strict uniform rules after the death of a fencer at the world championships in the 1980s). It’s layers of protective fabric and a hard shell chest protector, a mask, a bodywire, etc. It’s all mandated/rated for safety and it does take some time to get in and out of your fencing kit.

If UIPM chose to eliminate the utterly dumb fencing ‘bonus round’, the second day would consist of riding, swimming and the laser run. That would eliminate one time-consuming but necessary kit change. There isn’t an athlete or coach in the entire world who thinks the ‘bonus round’ is a good idea but for some reason, the UIPM retains it. So you see pentathletes fencing for 45 seconds in a most half-assed way - they just want to get it over with because it’s not worth the one single point you get if you win.

UIPM does have sub-sports that consist or continuous run-swim (biathle) and run-swim-shoot (triathle) which are a different challenge and quite popular in some parts. But it’s not an attractive spectacle - running in your swimsuit with swim cap and goggles on is perhaps not the best look.

[Old_Mac_Donald]

JER, you said that with the new format, fencing is the day before. So how does that equate to a “90 minute, one day” sport? “Oh, by the way, we poked sticks yesterday but it doesn’t count towards today’s competition except for these random points…”

Feels like it is all kind of … jammed together.

[S1969]

@JER

Willesden, thanks for an on-topic response.

In triathlon, the clothing changes are minimal, limited to footwear and a bike helmet. In pentathlon, the disciplines require complete changes.

Agreed, and all of the disciplines are scored by time, and nothing but time. So, it makes more sense to time the transitions too, and then the athletes are ranked by total time.

[Jealoushe]

@sascha

unite horse owners in host countries to boycott the loan of horses

Why? My horse loved every minute of it and it was the experience of a lifetime I will never forget. Because of a few bad riders??

[JER]

@Old_Mac_Donald

JER, you said that with the new format, fencing is the day before. So how does that equate to a “90 minute, one day” sport? “Oh, by the way, we poked sticks yesterday but it doesn’t count towards today’s competition except for these random points…”

Feels like it is all kind of … jammed together.

It is compressed. But let me explain the fencing a little better.

In the new format - as now - there are two rounds of fencing.

The fencing ‘ranking round’ is when all 36 entrants fence each other in one-touch, round-robin bouts. This takes 2.5 - 3 hours to get through. This is where the real points are scored. Each athlete has to get through 35 one-minute bouts. Currently, at World Championships and Olympics, this phase is held the day before the other events.

The fencing ‘bonus round’ is a fencing pageant done for spectator purposes and is of no value to the competition. In the current format, after the swim and before the ride, the athletes dress up in fencing gear and fence a series of bouts in reverse order of standing in the ranking round. This means the lowest-ranked fencer and the second-lowest-ranked fencer meet in a 45 second bout. The winner earns 1 point (which is worth nothing) and goes on to fence the third-lowest-ranked fencer. And so on until you get to number one.

It takes far too long and holds absolutely no one’s interest. I bet you all lost interest even reading my explanation of it.

The idiotic part of it is that it gives the weaker fencers a chance to earn more points and it gives the top fencer the chance to fence a single ‘bonus bout’ - which is worth 2 points. Which is really pointless in terms of scoring. It’s not like they have a bonus swim or ride or run to aid those weaker in those disciplines. It was devised so that the stadium audience - of which there is none - could see ‘fencing’.

The ‘ranking’/round robin fencing is the only phase in which you can take points away from your competitors. It has lots of value and is really a necessary component. But you can’t fence outdoors so you need an indoor venue (the bonus round is held outdoors with people wearing sunglasses under masks but this is for only one piste but you need at least 8 to get through the ranking round in 3 hours).

You also have to do specific warm up for the different disciplines, equipment needs to be tested, etc. If you want a quality competition, there’s a limit to how much you can rush people through it.

[JER]

@S1969

Agreed, and all of the disciplines are scored by time, and nothing but time. So, it makes more sense to time the transitions too, and then the athletes are ranked by total time.

Are you suggesting that kit-changing should be timed? That’s hilarious, although it wouldn’t really be pentathlon anymore, it would be more like decathlon.

[S1969]

@JER

Are you suggesting that kit-changing should be timed? That’s hilarious, although it wouldn’t really be pentathlon anymore, it would be more like decathlon.

No I’m saying the opposite. In triathlon it makes sense, but not in pentathlon.

In triathlon the race is continuous - one start, one finish, with transitions, and all portions of the race are time-based.

But there is no benefit to being fast at changing into/out of riding attire or fencing attire. And a sport like fencing isn’t time-based. Nor shooting. So…it really doesn’t make sense to consider running pentathlon like triathlon.

[Old_Mac_Donald]

Thank you!

So, in the new/proposed 90 minute format (ie Paris ‘24) I’m turning on the telly to watch “the pentathlon” but the competitors starting at minute 0 were the ones who survived the fencing RR (heat I guess)? Do they all start then on even footing, or does the RR give them points that follow through to the 90min section?

Sorry if these are basic questions, last time I paid attention to the Pent. it was still a five day sport!

My interest is piqued because of the comparisons between the IOC/FEI changes in equestrian sports and the changes to the Pent. sport as a result of “da viewers” (and the IOC pulling weight).

(Scrap all Olympics, host proper WCs for sports instead)

[JER]

@S1969

But there is no benefit to being fast at changing into/out of riding attire or fencing attire. And a sport like fencing isn’t time-based. Nor shooting. So…it really doesn’t make sense to consider running pentathlon like triathlon.

The kit changes… I’ve been at plenty of comps where we’re so pressed for time that people are changing out in the open. At some point you stop caring. And this is under the old format.

Shooting is time-based in that you want to get your 5 hits in as short a time as possible. But as it’s combined with the running, it folds in to that time.

[JER]

@Old_Mac_Donald

So, in the new/proposed 90 minute format (ie Paris ‘24) I’m turning on the telly to watch “the pentathlon” but the competitors starting at minute 0 were the ones who survived the fencing RR (heat I guess)? Do they all start then on even footing, or does the RR give them points that follow through to the 90min section?

The ranking round score is your fencing score that you carry through the competition. So in the new format, when you see the competitors in the riding phase, they’ll already have a score next to their name and the order of go will be in reverse order of standing. That ranking round score is a very important component of your final score.

@Old_Mac_Donald

(Scrap all Olympics, host proper WCs for sports instead)

Yes to this. The IOC with its nonsensical universality rules and (necessary) athlete limit rules has make most sports at the Olympics a very watered-down, second-rate competition.

Because the Olympics purports to be a festival of nations or some such, much of the qualifying is done through regional competitions and then there are extra spots for ‘universality’, meaning that if your country has no presence in a sport, you can apply to compete even though you aren’t qualified. This led to a luge athlete getting killed at Vancouver 2010 but whatever.

If the top 3 people in the world in a sport are from the same country, one has to stay home if the Olympics limits it to 2 per nation. So it follows that a significant portion of a world top 20 or even 10 has to stay home from the Olympics (but not world champs). Meanwhile, #127 in the world has qualified for the Olympics through a weak continental competition with generous quotas.

In pentathlon, the African qualifier is run with only one country in contention (Egypt) and a token athlete from another country (always South Africa) with the minimal number of athletes (5 total) to make it a legal competition. The Oceania qualifier is run with the Asian qualifier because Australia was caught making up qualifiers on paper in the past. So the top ‘Oceania’ competitor at the Asian champs gets a spot, regardless of finish. Australia is almost always the only Oceania nation to send a competitor and they send one or two at the most. Not exactly a tough path to qualifying. Meanwhile, the Europeans (the most nations, the strongest nations) have 80 entrants battling for 8 total spots. It’s not exactly ensuring a quality start list at the Games.

And this is the case in most sports. I think most people here can remember the ‘personal’ qualifiers held in the showjumping by rich people in the ME.

[trubandloki]

@JER

So in the new format, when you see the competitors in the riding phase, they’ll already have a score next to their name and the order of go will be in reverse order of standing

One of the suggestions in the other thread was to do the riding in order of standing instead of reverse order of standing. That way the higher ranked people do not have to ride the horses after someone else already rode the horse.
Is there any thought to making that change?

[Darkwave]

As an aside, I am LOVING the idea of a competition where people are timed on how fast they can get on or pull off their riding boots (no zippers allowed). Perhaps we could combine that with the new discipline of dressausage (which is dressage, done in clothing 3 sizes too small)

[S1969]

@JER

The kit changes… I’ve been at plenty of comps where we’re so pressed for time that people are changing out in the open. At some point you stop caring. And this is under the old format.

Yeah, I get that. It’s not a matter of if it can be done quickly, but whether it is valuable to the sport. I’m not sure there is any way to justify that being able to switch disciplines faster makes someone a better pentathlete. If that was the case, there would be one kit that you didn’t change - just put a helmet on and boots/shoes.

But that doesn’t really represent the original concept of reflecting a cavalry background/skills. It’s not like you would have to change clothes while behind enemy lines, or go from one event to the next in a row.

[JER]

@trubandloki

One of the suggestions in the other thread was to do the riding in order of standing instead of reverse order of standing. That way the higher ranked people do not have to ride the horses after someone else already rode the horse.
Is there any thought to making that change?

I’m sure this is on the table. This also has to do with the new format.

Currently, the ride is after the fence and the swim. Standings are fairly significant at that point.

In the new format, the ride takes place after the fence. The athletes will be riding only on their fencing scores.

The reverse order of go was intended to up the excitement going into the final event. Can the number 1 person hold on to the top spot? But that suspense is really gone when the ride takes place only after the fence.

Also, the final of the new format has a smaller number of competitors. 12 or 18 or something, not sure if it’s decided yet. So in the Olympics, the field of 36 will work through a semi-final round of the new format and then the top however many will repeat the same format in the final.

BTW, the new format was concocted in secrecy and approved in secrecy by the UIPM. They wouldn’t tell anyone in the sport what the actual format was, only that it had been approved. Until they ran test events (and not as robustly as promised) no one had any idea what it was.

This is how UIPM works. They listen to no one except themselves and make decisions without consulting anyone, including their own membership. But again, most if not all sport orgs are like this. Transparent and open is unheard of unless a lawsuit is involved.

[JER]

@S1969

But that doesn’t really represent the original concept of reflecting a cavalry background/skills. It’s not like you would have to change clothes while behind enemy lines, or go from one event to the next in a row.

Are you advocating that pentathletes ride in a swimsuit that can also be used for fencing?

A soldier would also be in real danger. We use laser pistols, FIE fencing equipment, etc. There’s a point at which you have to depart from that cavalry vision - which eventing did as well.

[JER]

@Darkwave

Perhaps we could combine that with the new discipline of dressausage (which is dressage, done in clothing 3 sizes too small)

Dressausage has so much potential.

Everyone would tune in to watch that WTF discipline. You don’t even have to know what it is to want to see it.

[trubandloki]

That makes sense @JER. Maybe making the riding order a random draw would be the ‘fairest’ way to do it.

[Willesdon]

Gymnasts use a uni-suit uni-tard thingy. Couldn’t one add protective upper body gear for fencing, remove, put on riding helmet and boots, remove, go swimming - modern fast drying materials etc - go running and shooting, throw a few things around a pitch or whatever else happens, all in the same basic outfit with additions according to safety requirements? If everyone had the same design then everyone would be on a level playing field.

[JER]

@Willesdon

Gymnasts use a uni-suit uni-tard thingy. Couldn’t one add protective upper body gear for fencing, remove, put on riding helmet and boots, remove, go swimming - modern fast drying materials etc - go running and shooting, throw a few things around a pitch or whatever else happens, all in the same basic outfit with additions according to safety requirements? If everyone had the same design then everyone would be on a level playing field.

Then you’re basically making the same clothing changes, just over your onesie.

Fencing uniforms are whole-body. The pants are also protective fabric because in epee, the target is the entire body. So you’d still be putting on on the same kit, onesie or not.

Same with riding, unless the onesie is meant to be breeches too. But if so, they’ll be too thick (and hot) to wear comfortably under your fencing kit which is already stifling hot. And then you swim in it?

The idea itself isn’t terrible but the execution would be suboptimal. Again, if you dropped the stupid fencing bonus round, you wouldn’t have to deal with the fencing kit that day.

[MHM]

@Darkwave

As an aside, I am LOVING the idea of a competition where people are timed on how fast they can get on or pull off their riding boots (no zippers allowed). Perhaps we could combine that with the new discipline of dressausage (which is dressage, done in clothing 3 sizes too small)

Omg. I’m wondering how many people who show these days have ever even worn a pair of boots without zippers? I’ll bet the percentage is extremely low! Lol.