What kind of mare does he need to produce dressage horses?
And what is he known for improving the most?
[QUOTE=SCMSL;6631294]
What kind of mare does he need to produce dressage horses?
And what is he known for improving the most?[/QUOTE]
better to contact Edgar if you want some info on this bloodline being used for dressage.
Do you have the contact info for Edgar?
If you had a powerfully pure dressage lineaged mare, cross-breeding to specifically Escudo II owned by Edgar Schutte of Rainbow Equus Meadows would prove beneficial to improving the dressage. Escudo II has been very successful producing both dressage, show jumpers, and some hunters, as well as siring a number of approved stallion sons still standing in Europe.
Escudo I will not be as reliable for this purpose. They may be full brothers, but are definitely a bit different. BOTH stallions improve leg and riding horse type and both have superb temperament, handleability and rideability. Both are a bit better at jumping than at dressage, but Escudo II would probably suit your needs to improve the dressage better than Escudo I would. Furthermore, Escudo II’s temperament is so fantastically exceptional, Celle used Escudo II for at liberty demonstrations (not even a halter on his head!), doing various tricks, etc., to the delight of the crowds attending the stallion parades… and then Edgar performed quite the coup and whisked this special stallion and bloodline to North America!
FWIW, all of the best dressage horses have jumper blood in them. It improves the hindquarter and power.
To know what you could get, you need to know a bit about the family tree.
Espri’s damsire, Diplomat, was a dressage-specific state-premium producing “broodmare” stallion. I know this lineage well because I have a Diplomat granddaughter myself. Diplomat’s daughters were of sturdy, good type, not prone to injury, extremely intelligent, good longevity, very good natural 3 gaits, especially their walks, but most definitely dressage in type. Interestingly, Diplomat’s daughters did not always produce specifically dressage. They quite often produced jumpers, evidenced by SPS Diplomatin, the mother of Espri. He was definitely a jumper. However, Espri quite successfully sired both jumper and dressage horses and very good ones at that. My mare’s mother, SPS Doreen, also was very similar to SPS Diplomatin in that regard and I had the privilege of handling/riding/showing her and all of her offspring - all could do either sport very nicely, but depending on their sire, they excelled at one over the other and it was not unexpected for her kids to perform at the GP ring. One daughter was evented to 3* level.
Another very specific point to the Escudo brothers’ damline is the stallion, Arkansas, who descended from Absatz, and he is another stallion who produced both equally talented high-calibre offspring in both jumper and dressage. Very gifted offspring, I might dare say.
Edgar Schutte owns Escudo II and Rainbow Equus Meadows. He’s easy to talk to and knows his stuff. He’s also honest and straight-forward and won’t steer you wrong. Celle still owns Escudo I.
Thank you for your input rodawn!
Unfortunately I am in Europe so it would be hard to get semen from Escudo II.
What do you think of Espri or even Earl?
The mare is very modern, but could use a bit more power behind - and thats why I’ve been considering jumpers lately for her next year.
Embassy III is in NA now and doing pretty well in the dressage ring 
You could look at the dam bloodline.
https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/539078_370440749645401_365963162_n.jpg
[QUOTE=rodawn;6632017]
If you had a powerfully pure dressage lineaged mare, cross-breeding to specifically Escudo II owned by Edgar Schutte of Rainbow Equus Meadows would prove beneficial to improving the dressage. Escudo II has been very successful producing both dressage, show jumpers, and some hunters, as well as siring a number of approved stallion sons still standing in Europe.
Escudo I will not be as reliable for this purpose. They may be full brothers, but are definitely a bit different. BOTH stallions improve leg and riding horse type and both have superb temperament, handleability and rideability. Both are a bit better at jumping than at dressage, but Escudo II would probably suit your needs to improve the dressage better than Escudo I would. Furthermore, Escudo II’s temperament is so fantastically exceptional, Celle used Escudo II for at liberty demonstrations (not even a halter on his head!), doing various tricks, etc., to the delight of the crowds attending the stallion parades… and then Edgar performed quite the coup and whisked this special stallion and bloodline to North America!
FWIW, all of the best dressage horses have jumper blood in them. It improves the hindquarter and power.
To know what you could get, you need to know a bit about the family tree.
Espri’s damsire, Diplomat, was a dressage-specific state-premium producing “broodmare” stallion. I know this lineage well because I have a Diplomat granddaughter myself. Diplomat’s daughters were of sturdy, good type, not prone to injury, extremely intelligent, good longevity, very good natural 3 gaits, especially their walks, but most definitely dressage in type. Interestingly, Diplomat’s daughters did not always produce specifically dressage. They quite often produced jumpers, evidenced by SPS Diplomatin, the mother of Espri. He was definitely a jumper. However, Espri quite successfully sired both jumper and dressage horses and very good ones at that. My mare’s mother, SPS Doreen, also was very similar to SPS Diplomatin in that regard and I had the privilege of handling/riding/showing her and all of her offspring - all could do either sport very nicely, but depending on their sire, they excelled at one over the other and it was not unexpected for her kids to perform at the GP ring. One daughter was evented to 3* level.
Another very specific point to the Escudo brothers’ damline is the stallion, Arkansas, who descended from Absatz, and he is another stallion who produced both equally talented high-calibre offspring in both jumper and dressage. Very gifted offspring, I might dare say.
Edgar Schutte owns Escudo II and Rainbow Equus Meadows. He’s easy to talk to and knows his stuff. He’s also honest and straight-forward and won’t steer you wrong. Celle still owns Escudo I.[/QUOTE]
rodawn, this is interesting stuff (though since I bred my mare to him, I already know all about E2 and his impressive Celle exhibition, have watched it numerous times–you say he also did this “sans halter or bridle”? Wow!) Do you have any links to pix of Diplomat? I was able to track down a pic of Arkansas (a substantial grey with a “noble head”, I’m thinking the E boys got their pretty heads from daddy and/or a pinch of Athene??), but it’s frustrating not to be able to see pix any of the dams of these stallions!
My filly is the absolute spitting image of E2, it’s eerie. Wicked smart too (even at only 4 months), I will need to be “on my toes” with this one, though I have been handling and working with her frequently. She is both sweet and sassy, and a real “thinker.” She is neither uphill nor short-coupled in build, and is definitely built more like a jumper, with powerful quarters and a strong, beautifully shaped neck. She has a fabulous canter, but does NOT like to trot :-/ sigh
(A “sample of one”, here–sorry to hijack–but I thought it was interesting that there is dressage capability among these bloodlines, though it might be back a generation or two. I had heard that infusions of jumper blood are often used by dressage breeders as “improvement”…;))
(Escudo II is available by frozen…)
Well, all I can give you is some basic research that I did and maybe an opinion, but it really boils down to what kind of mare you have in front of you.
Espri did sire some very successful dressage horses, but there is a very big “but” that goes with him - when I checked out his (many) offspring, most were jumpers. Of the foals that became dressage horses, most were out of mares with very strong dressage pedigrees.
One was out of the Grande/Pik Konig/Flugel mareline, so a very powerful dressage family. Another came out of Lemon xx/Trapper/Marconi, so another strong dressage family. Lemon xx sired Lemon Tree who is in the process of starting his own line through his sons/daughters. Yet another dressage horse out of Marconi/TB mareline. So this speaks to the purity and strength of the dressage mareline to get the right foal result from Espri.
It’s not always a guarantee, however. A Pik Bube mare was put to him and still produced a jumper who went GP. In the 3rd and 4th generation, the dam’s line also had Ramiro and Cottage Son - these 2 boys seem to have strong influence for a number of generations, so something to consider.
Some W-line mares were put to Espri and they turned out jumpers - they descended from the Ferdinand “F” branch, so using a W mare would depend which branch of F she came from. All W horses descend from F and it split into 2 families - one tending toward dressage and one tending toward jumpers, although just to be confusing both lines have produced both.
All of this says to me that your mare would have to have a nearly pure dressage family for 5-6 generations in order to get a decent chance using Espri, so personally I wouldn’t use him.
Espri’s personal scores and body type reflected his definite trend towards jumper - He was built very uphill, had a nice shoulder line and very definitely a show jumping hindquarter. His sire, Eiger I, did little to improve dressage; however, grandsire, Eisenherz, did improve the dressage and both of these stallions have influenced through Espri so you’re taking some chances (this could explain the differences between Escudo I and Escudo II in their production). Espri is dead, but Celle still has some semen for him.
Earl performs very well in both sports and is ridden in both sports. Even though his index does not show him adding anything to the dressage, one has to consider that most of the mares brought to him are jumper mares so this influences his stats. Earl’s personal scores of 139.93 in the dressage and 127.55 in the jumping are rather nice and he is one stallion you might consider for the purposes of improving the quality of your dressage offspring. He uses his hindquarters very well and shows a lot of freedom in the shoulder and his type reflects an all-round horse. He can jump very well, but he shows very well under saddle too. You could talk to Celle about him and see what they say, but I suspect they will tell you that he is mostly used for jumper and if you wanted to try with dressage, you would need a mare with a strong dressage pedigree. You can check out Earl’s kids like how I did above with Espri and see what lineages are proving effective to get what you want in your future foal and whether your mare fits the trend.
Most times what happens is the dressage influence exerts more power over the results, so when you take a dressage mare and put to a jumping stallion who shows some equality, the dressage will win out and you will end up with a foal who will do very well in the dressage ring, but also is quite happy to pop over the fences too.
A good example of this phenomenon is Sandro. He was a jumper through and through. He sired Sandro Boy, a spectacular show jumper who has his own family branch developing. Alternatively, Sandro also sired Sandro Song, a GP jumper who was also GP Dressage and he sired the dressage horse, Sandro Hit. Sandro can be credited with siring 2 totally different branches of sport, although technically it was the MARE who made the difference. One note about either line is there is still the strong influence from Ramiro and Cottage Son.
Don’t know if that even helps at all, but it was a good chance to cement down some of my lineage studies. :winkgrin:
[QUOTE=Dr. Doolittle;6632295]
rodawn, this is interesting stuff (though since I bred my mare to him, I already know all about E2 and his impressive Celle exhibition, have watched it numerous times–you say he also did this “sans halter or bridle”? Wow!) Do you have any links to pix of Diplomat? I was able to track down a pic of Arkansas (a substantial grey with a “noble head”, I’m thinking the E boys got their pretty heads from daddy and/or a pinch of Athene??), but it’s frustrating not to be able to see pix any of the dams of these stallions!
My filly is the absolute spitting image of E2, it’s eerie. Wicked smart too (even at only 4 months), I will need to be “on my toes” with this one, though I have been handling and working with her frequently. She is both sweet and sassy, and a real “thinker.” She is neither uphill nor short-coupled in build, and is definitely built more like a jumper, with powerful quarters and a strong, beautifully shaped neck. She has a fabulous canter, but does NOT like to trot :-/ sigh
(A “sample of one”, here–sorry to hijack–but I thought it was interesting that there is dressage capability among these bloodlines, though it might be back a generation or two. I had heard that infusions of jumper blood are often used by dressage breeders as “improvement”…;))[/QUOTE]
I have a picture of Diplomat on my web site (which is currently a bit of a mess as it is in the middle of being totally re-done) - scroll down to the bottom:
http://www.mariposasporthorses.com/Granada.php
Granada has some of the looks of her sire, but she definitely has Diplomat’s brains. She is not a horse for the average amateur - extremely intelligent, and quite capable of out-witting the average horse or rider, but on the other hand, the mare is also very loyal, sweet-natured. She’s currently 22 and I regret not breeding her more than twice, so we are considering pulling embryos from her next year because this is a mareline worth preserving.
This is such fascinating stuff, many thanks for sharing your expertise!
It sounds like the jumping ability breeds through in some of these lines, even when people are breeding specifically for dressage (so it must be true about the “strong heritability” of jumping talent…)
Maybe in these cases, “a good athlete is a good athlete”?
(My mare is by Art Deco, who wasn’t known for his jumping but who has produced many athletic, elastic, powerful offspring–who can do both. They can also be a bit less than “ammy friendly”, I know my own mare is. Um. Complicated. But was quite a talented jumper and a great competition horse, I evented her to Prelim, and it was easy for her. I’m hoping my E2 filly has enough athletic ability to enable me to putz around at the lower levels of whatever I want to do with her–since I am no spring chicken–and it seems like she will. With plenty in the tank “to spare” :D)
[QUOTE=rodawn;6632384]
I have a picture of Diplomat on my web site (which is currently a bit of a mess as it is in the middle of being totally re-done) - scroll down to the bottom:
http://www.mariposasporthorses.com/Granada.php
Granada has some of the looks of her sire, but she definitely has Diplomat’s brains. She is not a horse for the average amateur - extremely intelligent, and quite capable of out-witting the average horse or rider, but on the other hand, the mare is also very loyal, sweet-natured. She’s currently 22 and I regret not breeding her more than twice, so we are considering pulling embryos from her next year because this is a mareline worth preserving.[/QUOTE]
Thanks for sharing this! Diplomat (as well as your mare) has those characteristic “long lines of the body” that seem to be prized in jumpers (and were praised in my filly at her inspection.) HA, the brains part, hmm. :winkgrin: Heaven forbid that life would be boring (and who wants a boring horse?) I personally prefer smart, sensitive horses (though they are not for everyone!), bonus if they are pocket ponies.
Granada is lovely, BTW! You are lucky to have her, and I hope you are able to get a few more foals out of her 
Thank you! I hope we do get at least 1 or 2 more foals and this time I won’t be stupid enough to sell any of them.
I have a St Pr Espri/Lemon xx/Trapper/Marconi mare that I have used exclusively to breed Dressage foals with. Her best offspring have been from His Highness, Fuerstenball, and Sir Donnerhall…so I think that D-line is a nick.
The Stallions Dancier and Rosandro both have Espri in the third generation and I think that is just where you want it. My Espri mare is sweet but sensitive. But she has amazing power…and that is something I find lacking in many of the modern Dressage sires.
http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/family/644719
Her dam line is above. So I think it is a combination of the dam line and Espri that made the whole equation work. Have seen more Dressage horses with Espri in the dam line than Escudo.
I know he is just one example, but don’t forget that Nadine Cappellmann’s Elvis VA was by Espri, and he helped the Germans win Team Gold in dressage at the Hong Kong Olympics. I guess it didn’t hurt that his damsire was Garibaldi II (by Grande).
[QUOTE=SCMSL;6631294]
What kind of mare does he need to produce dressage horses?
And what is he known for improving the most?[/QUOTE]
There are quite a few for dressage that I’ve seen researching. More as dam sire than Escudo I as the sire. He seems to consistently put a very strong and quick hind leg and strong loin connection. Some times doesn’t throw the prettiest of heads.
Not sure I would pick him for a dressage sire for a top level horse in the first generation…but he is good for a nice all rounder or perhaps in a generational breeding program.
(Escudo II is available by frozen…)
Well, all I can give you is some basic research that I did and maybe an opinion, but it really boils down to what kind of mare you have in front of you.
Espri did sire some very successful dressage horses, but there is a very big “but” that goes with him - when I checked out his (many) offspring, most were jumpers. Of the foals that became dressage horses, most were out of mares with very strong dressage pedigrees.
One was out of the Grande/Pik Konig/Flugel mareline, so a very powerful dressage family. Another came out of Lemon xx/Trapper/Marconi, so another strong dressage family. Lemon xx sired Lemon Tree who is in the process of starting his own line through his sons/daughters. Yet another dressage horse out of Marconi/TB mareline. So this speaks to the purity and strength of the dressage mareline to get the right foal result from Espri.
It’s not always a guarantee, however. A Pik Bube mare was put to him and still produced a jumper who went GP. In the 3rd and 4th generation, the dam’s line also had Ramiro and Cottage Son - these 2 boys seem to have strong influence for a number of generations, so something to consider.
Some W-line mares were put to Espri and they turned out jumpers - they descended from the Ferdinand “F” branch, so using a W mare would depend which branch of F she came from. All W horses descend from F and it split into 2 families - one tending toward dressage and one tending toward jumpers, although just to be confusing both lines have produced both.
All of this says to me that your mare would have to have a nearly pure dressage family for 5-6 generations in order to get a decent chance using Espri, so personally I wouldn’t use him.
Espri’s personal scores and body type reflected his definite trend towards jumper - He was built very uphill, had a nice shoulder line and very definitely a show jumping hindquarter. His sire, Eiger I, did little to improve dressage; however, grandsire, Eisenherz, did improve the dressage and both of these stallions have influenced through Espri so you’re taking some chances (this could explain the differences between Escudo I and Escudo II in their production). Espri is dead, but Celle still has some semen for him.
Earl performs very well in both sports and is ridden in both sports. Even though his index does not show him adding anything to the dressage, one has to consider that most of the mares brought to him are jumper mares so this influences his stats. Earl’s personal scores of 139.93 in the dressage and 127.55 in the jumping are rather nice and he is one stallion you might consider for the purposes of improving the quality of your dressage offspring. He uses his hindquarters very well and shows a lot of freedom in the shoulder and his type reflects an all-round horse. He can jump very well, but he shows very well under saddle too. You could talk to Celle about him and see what they say, but I suspect they will tell you that he is mostly used for jumper and if you wanted to try with dressage, you would need a mare with a strong dressage pedigree. You can check out Earl’s kids like how I did above with Espri and see what lineages are proving effective to get what you want in your future foal and whether your mare fits the trend.
Most times what happens is the dressage influence exerts more power over the results, so when you take a dressage mare and put to a jumping stallion who shows some equality, the dressage will win out and you will end up with a foal who will do very well in the dressage ring, but also is quite happy to pop over the fences too.
A good example of this phenomenon is Sandro. He was a jumper through and through. He sired Sandro Boy, a spectacular show jumper who has his own family branch developing. Alternatively, Sandro also sired Sandro Song, a GP jumper who was also GP Dressage and he sired the dressage horse, Sandro Hit. Sandro can be credited with siring 2 totally different branches of sport, although technically it was the MARE who made the difference. One note about either line is there is still the strong influence from Ramiro and Cottage Son.
Don’t know if that even helps at all, but it was a good chance to cement down some of my lineage studies.
Loved to read your comment, thank you for your expertise!
I am a big apologist of using jumper’s blood in dressage horses (as long as the horse has itself good movement). The first time I considered it was when I was about to buy a stallion for myself, who was by Stakkato. A beautiful stallion, and at the time I knew nothing about jumping lines so was very surprised when I researched him and saw he wasn’t a dressage horse!
I feel a bit of jumping blood improves on the hind end, and it can improve on the loin area as well.
This mare I was talking about has quite a bit of jumping in her already (her dam was sired by Federweisser out of a Fabriano mare) so I’m starting to be a bit unsure, after what you’ve said. However, she is more of a dressage type, modern and long legged.
Thanks for all of your information. I have a weanling Escudo 1 filly out of my Zeoliet mare. I wasn’t aware of the Ramiro on the Escudo side, as well as the Zeoliet! This filly is lovely with a heart shaped star on her beautiful little face. I am not sure what direction will be awaiting her in the future.
