I just had a “delightful” email exchange with ESI, the HITS photographers. They have no website and insist that you must be physically present to view their proofs. They also report that they charge a nonrefundable $150 fee for viewing. Since I’ve heard stories about their poor timing of jumping photos, that’s concerning. (A horse I bred is showing in Ocala and I would love to buy a pic or two but I refuse to support a business with such rotten customer service!)
I had a similar experience last year, trying to obtain photos for a horse I had for sale on consignment. It was April, HITS Ocala doesn’t start up until December, and they refused to provide anything by email/online (even for a show that was two years prior), said I had to view photos in person. So I’m supposed to fly halfway across the country when I don’t even know yet if you have photos of said horse that are worth buying? Or wait nine months to see them, while I’ve got this horse for sale in the meantime? Ridiculous.
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It’s also hit or miss if they even get your class. This year at Thermal they missed two out of my four classes and didn’t even bother to do my kiddo’s short stirrup classes. Really wish HITS would get a new photographer.
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I agree, super frustrating! I had a mare showing in the YJC 6yo classes weeks 6-7 last year at Thermal and I walked in to talk to the photogs at the beginning of my time there. They said they would definitely be photographing the finals class and likely one of the other classes as well. Turned out they had a photographer at the ring who took photos of all 3 classes and took pictures of every single person in the class…drum roll…except me! I did go first in the finals class (so I guess he hadn’t gotten started yet - which was super frustrating since it started on time…but I could understand), but was in the middle of the other two classes. No reason to miss me, especially when I had requested photos of that horse in particular and told them when I would be riding and stopped by the booth on my way up to the ring each of the non-finals days.
I had also requested photos of the mare I had showing in the 3’6" AO Hunters. Not a single picture of that horse over two weeks of showing either.
I gave up and didn’t bother looking for my other horses. I was especially frustrated given that I spent over $500 with them the year prior, and was ready to spend whatever I needed to in order to get photos of the sales horses.
I’m continually surprised by the lack of photos online after the show as well. I would absolutely buy photos after the show if I could go look at them online. The photographers at every other show I go to do this, and it’s mind boggling to me that you have to walk into the booth, sort your own photos, and buy them on the spot at one of the biggest shows on the West Coast. Heck, I wouldn’t even mind having to search and sort my own photos if I could do it from my own house after I got home from the show.
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Yes, very frustrating. Just spent 3 weeks there. Did find a couple good photos but many of my classes (AA Hunters) were not photographed at all. Even with photographers who don’t have a website, they will usually send you watermarked proofs after the show. I didn’t even get to see my photos from the last day cause I had to leave early on Sunday so no photos. If there was a website, I would definitely buy more. I really like to look at photos after the show when I have time to focus.
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I will add that two years ago I ended up hauling out in a hurry, for one reason or another, and didn’t get a chance to look at the photos. I emailed ESI and they sent me (watermarked) proofs to review. So maybe it depends on who you get a hold of? Or maybe they get inundated with requests and have started charging for the time to sort through photos and send them to you (since I’m sure, more often than not, that doesn’t result in any high dollar sales)?
Despite what I said about being frustrated by them, I don’t envy the photographers. I find that most shows really don’t support the photographers, and I know a lot of the decisions that are made are a result of that. Just trying to find the information about the photographer for the show is hard enough!
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I totally agree with this. I always try to buy a photo to support the photographer (and obviously because I like having them) but I am always surprised that most people don’t buy them. While I was looking at my watermarked photos one time, a 12 year old rider from my barn said, “You could just have the watermark photoshopped out”. I gave her a lecture about how if no one buys the photo, there won’t be photographers any more. I’m sure it went over well.
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That’s what gets me. I know being a horse show photographer has challenges, and I am ready and willing to spend money. But they’re making it unacceptably difficult, both from an access and a customer service perspective.
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At a show like WEF, photographers have to pay minimum $400/week for the permit to be there, not including the other costs associated with being there. I can’t really fault them with trying to get some sort of guarantee that they will make that money back up front. A lot of photographers have gone down with private clients (guaranteed pay for the photographer and guaranteed coverage for the client).
Is that $400 figure for just people there with cameras (for fun, not making any money), or only pros who want to sell pics? Just curious as I’ve seen this fee referenced a couple places but couldn’t actually find anything on pbiec’s site.
https://pbiec.coth.com/page/2019-media-credential-form
You have to be a vendor to be able to sell to exhibitors. Vendor packet is here: http://pbiec.coth.com/page/2016-vendor-forms. I didn’t see anything specific for a vendor photographer pass, but the least expensive vendor pass appears to be $1,150.00/week.
If you are just taking photos for you and not to publish or sell that is different.
I think I figured out the problem with ESI. Their software is quite bizarre. The only way to find your photos is by class. You click on your class or division, then scroll through all the photos and hope to find one of you and your horse. That contrasts with other photographers where you search by number / horse name. So if you aren’t at the show, they have no way to find your photos. They do have a nice feature where you can create an account and add photos so when you want to check out, all the photos are easily reviewed. But you still have to be at the show. They need to update their software / search abilities.
The $400 is for a permit to photograph there, period. I’m sure some people skate around that, but if they are caught they can be in big trouble and be removed from the grounds. In order to sell photos onsite, you also have to pay a vendor fee per week, which as mentioned above, is over $1k/week.
A photographer in my group called WEF to ask about coming to take photos, just for portfolio building, not for private clients or to sell onsite, and they were told they had to buy the permit just to be there taking photographs.
Damn, I had no idea. Even if you just want to take a quick photo on your cell phone (not with actual camera equipment)?
If you’re taking photos for personal use you don’t need a permit. I have walked around WEF many years with my DSLR cameras taking photos for myself/friends and never once was stopped or fined…
Now that I put that in writing I bet I’ll get a ticket in the mail… :rolleyes:
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Technically you do need what they call a “freelance photographer pass” which, from my limited understanding, basically gives you the right to take photos for yourself but does not allow you to sell or give them away. Of course, I’m sure many people don’t have this (I didn’t even know it existed until a few days ago either).
Personally, I think its unfortunate. I understand the need to protect the official photographers but I think the shows could help do this by not charging exorbitant vendor fees and spreading information about who the official photographer is at a specific show. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve been to a show and there has either been no photographer or I can’t figure out who the photographer is without a lot of googling.
Plus, it seems to me that the real competition for true horse show photographers (who make most of their income by travelling from show to show) would be the photographers that offer private client services. Many people I know are going that route to ensure they get quality photos of themselves and their horses. A random person with a DSLR may or may not get a great shot of your horse, but if I had hired a professional photographer for that show, I would probably be less likely to check out the other photographer (if I even knew who they were).
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Actually, you do, you just haven’t been caught by anyone who cared yet. This is per the office at WEF when specifically asked the question.
Adultammylife- Private client photographers shouldn’t be taking ring photos if there is a pro for that ring. That’s a major no-no. They are there for behind the scenes stuff and portraits on the grounds, or if there is no photographer for that ring/show.
I meant taking photos on your phones (for personal use, you don’t need a permit)! Should’ve been clearer… Yes, understandably so I should be getting a pass, though I never stood ringside and photographed- 99% behind the scenes stuff. My fault on the miscommunication.
I completely understand the need to limit/prohibit outside photographers. I have done automotive photography for 10+ years and it seems like as long as an individual has a camera… they can call themselves a photographer. We get “beat out” so to speak by people offering to shoot people’s vehicles for little or no money rather than pay for a qualified professional. It’s definitely taken a large bite out of business… so I completely feel for the WEF photographers.
Interesting, thanks for the explanation. You’d think WEF would be a little bit more forthcoming about that on their website. After this thread I tried to investigate, but I didn’t see anything. I’m sure plenty of people assume it’s a free for all. I’ve never seen another show have that rule (granted, I haven’t been out in a while) but I guess when you’re WEF you can do whatever you want.
I don’t know specifics for all private client photographers since I don’t compete at WEF but I do know that there is at least one very well known photographer who does strictly private client work at WEF and shoots behind the scenes stuff and ring shots for their clients, and from what I’m seeing on instagram - a lot of the smaller private clients photographers are doing that as well. Doesn’t seem like WEF is having any issues with that so long as they pay the vendor fee. Admittedly not sure how it works for all shows, just noticing what I’ve observed at WEF.
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