I SO disagree with the owners of Wyndlair Avalanche did. It is just wrong. Morally, ethically, animal husbandry wise. Just get them a button and bumper sticker that reads “I breed Collies for the $$” and be done with it. Asshats!
[QUOTE=lewin;6167751]
Looking at some of the pictures of the show rough collies…what has happened to their eyes? Some of the show dogs look like they are constantly squinting. What is the reasoning behind putting small eyes on what was meant to be a herding dog?[/QUOTE]
Collie eye anomaly. http://www.colliehealth.org/eyes.html
I raised a few litters of Collies the last 10 years and my dogs were “normal eyed”. Normal eyed means the dog is not affected by “Collie eye” and in a nutshell, is a healthy eye that apparently has a bit of a rounder appearance.
I took my pups to the opthamologist for CERF exams. Our opthomologist rated pups as Normal, #2 (good vision, but carries and expresses “collie eye”) #3 (moderately affected, depending on the results the eye problems may or may not progress), #4 (eye affected, more serious) and #5 (blind/retinal detachment).
I was told by a number of show Collie breeders in MN that a “normal eyed” dog won’t win in the ring, due to the “round eye”.
To my mind it’s the same as HYPP in AQHA/APHA/etc. horses- no reason it couldn’t/shouldn’t be phased out. But apparently animals with genetic problems keep winning conformation classes, (WTF?) so I guess people will just keep breeding them. :sigh:
On the upside, if you scroll down to the third dog on this website, you will see a pup that I raised, (normal eyed!) and he is a Champion. :yes:
http://elevagedejade.com/dcd.htm
Thanks for the explanation 1sock. I agree that it should be phased out. A collie would still look like a collie with round eyes. And the fact that breeders would be willing to give up eyes that work properly for the sake of a having the dog not look soft is terrible. But a lot of that is why the Border Collie is a working dog still while the Rough Collie is not.
I have to agree - I used to show German Shepherds. I also have to wonder what judges are thinking when they can look at a dog that doesn’t walk or move correctly yet still “pin” it.
[QUOTE=dacasodivine;6166021]
Lots of breeders do unethical things like that. As a doberman owner, I am or was on several doberman lists. Someone asked a question about whether people would breed a dog with health problems. More than one person admitted they would breed a dog with a known health problem if it was perfect in every other way just making sure to breed to a dog that didn’t have the same problem.
They claim to breed to better the breed but that is total bull pucky. I know most aren’t in it for the money but sure don’t care much about their breed. Two examples I can think of off the top of my head are Pekingese and German Shepherds. Pekingese can’t hardly breath and GS can’t hardly walk. Who does that? Where is the betterment in doing that?[/QUOTE]
Actually, the smaller eye is not a collie eye anomaly. It’s a different condtion called Microphthalmia…Usually is related to other eye conditions, such as defects of the lens, retina, or cornea. Dogs with Microphthalmia have third eyelids and small eyes recessed into the eye socket. You will see this condition once new born pups open their eyes. This condition is unpredictable, the puppies eyes may worsen or the condition may heal itself. See a vet.
My adopted collie has one eye that is substantially smaller than the other. She’s also a velcro dog. She was an A/C abuse seizure so that probably explains it. She’s very brave now, except around strangers.
[QUOTE=hastyreply;6168079]
I spent my weekend at work trying to convince a coworker not to breed her aussie. She’d never had a herding dog before and had never had a dog so devoted to her as this one and “wants to have a part of her continue”. On top of that she’s picked another merle to breed her to. I asked if she realized that she would have some white pups and to be responsible they would need to be killed. She kept saying “culled” and I said killed, cuz that’s harder to do when you come down to it, esp if your not a breeder. I also pointed out she could loose her wonderful dog breeding her or she might just have one pup and it would be white, is it still easy to “cull” like that. I then went on and told her how even though my dogs aren’t related to my previous dogs, the early dogs live on through the ones I have now, Why I felt that way… etc. She said I gave her something to think about. This dog was a rehome when got her which contributes to her velcro nature. Also her pups maybe nothing like her in looks or nature. Maybe I just beat my head against a wall, who knows but she seemed to be thinking about what I said.[/QUOTE]
Perhaps you also need to ask her if the breeding does produce a blind and/or deaf dog or dogs, will she be willing to keep them for life and provide them with a stable happy environment. (I have an aussie and there are way too many of them already in rescues looking for homes for someone who is not devoted to the breed to be producing more! :eek: End of rant.)
breed clubs really need to start creating and enforcing standards. It would not be hard to insist upon some kind of quality control, similar to what they do with warmbloods- if the dog doesn’t pass a battery of health tests, a conformation test, a temperament test, and performance tests, his/her offspring cannot be registered as representative of the breed.
This would solve SO many problems. The unethical would be stopped in their tracks; the backyard breeder wouldn’t be able to even think they were doing something that was ok; the pet owners wouldn’t be stuck with unhealthy dogs; the dogs would benefit.
What’s the downside? none. Any ethical breeder already does this.
Breed Clubs are the ones responsible for writing the standards for the AKC.
[QUOTE=wendy;6169869]
breed clubs really need to start creating and enforcing standards. It would not be hard to insist upon some kind of quality control, similar to what they do with warmbloods- if the dog doesn’t pass a battery of health tests, a conformation test, a temperament test, and performance tests, his/her offspring cannot be registered as representative of the breed.
This would solve SO many problems. The unethical would be stopped in their tracks; the backyard breeder wouldn’t be able to even think they were doing something that was ok; the pet owners wouldn’t be stuck with unhealthy dogs; the dogs would benefit.
What’s the downside? none. Any ethical breeder already does this.[/QUOTE]
Unethical breeders can just “register” their dogs with a different kennel club such as the CKC, Continental Kennel Club; they already do.
As far as testing goes, not all breeds are able to be tested in their “original function” such as bull dogs, most terriers, etc. I DO support the notion that dogs be able to do what they were bred for, but I can tell you that it is sometimes very difficult to train and test a dog in some areas. For instance, herding is very common here in my rural area, but may be very difficult in a more urban setting… It takes a lot of time and money to train a sporting dog to hunt properly and many dog owners do not hunt or even own any weapons.
As far as health testing, I wish that there were more health tests available. We can only use those tests that are available… IVDD is quite common in a few breeds, but there is no test for it. One of our club members has worked and continues to work tirelessly with researchers only to have the one main researcher leave the school where he was conducting this research and go on to another research project. The club member only now has been able to find another school to start the research again… The AKC Canine Health Foundation gives a lot of grant money for research and there are in roads being made, but even the best breeder cannot for see every health issue that may be hidden in their dogs.
All we can ask is that breeders test what can be tested and be careful in their breedings… and we must ask the puppy buyers to do their homework when it comes to buying a dog. I get so many calls from people who want a puppy of a specific color, sex and age - NOW… They are unwilling to wait… :no::no:
[QUOTE=wendy;6169869]
breed clubs really need to start creating and enforcing standards. It would not be hard to insist upon some kind of quality control, similar to what they do with warmbloods- if the dog doesn’t pass a battery of health tests, a conformation test, a temperament test, and performance tests, his/her offspring cannot be registered as representative of the breed.
This would solve SO many problems. The unethical would be stopped in their tracks; the backyard breeder wouldn’t be able to even think they were doing something that was ok; the pet owners wouldn’t be stuck with unhealthy dogs; the dogs would benefit.
What’s the downside? none. Any ethical breeder already does this.[/QUOTE]
One of the things that folks who are trying to find a solid breeder to purchase a dog from is to look for dogs with CHIC numbers. These are dogs who have gone through all of the testing recommended by the parent club of the breed. While I’m a big fan of the program, I don’t think there’s any public awareness of the program. I focus far more on performance with my girls than the conformation ring. It comes down to there only being so much time and money to invest and I’d rather run an agility course than stack a dog. Thank goodness, DH has developed a fondness for the breed ring. I groom and he handles.
[QUOTE=Marshfield;6171576]
One of the things that folks who are trying to find a solid breeder to purchase a dog from is to look for dogs with CHIC numbers. These are dogs who have gone through all of the testing recommended by the parent club of the breed. While I’m a big fan of the program, I don’t think there’s any public awareness of the program. I focus far more on performance with my girls than the conformation ring. It comes down to there only being so much time and money to invest and I’d rather run an agility course than stack a dog. Thank goodness, DH has developed a fondness for the breed ring. I groom and he handles.[/QUOTE]
I am a second generation dog breeder, exhibitor and judge, but have now scaled back on the breeding and am focusing on OB/Rally and earthdog… So my dogs will have titles at both ends of their names…:D:D
ctually, the smaller eye is not a collie eye anomaly. It’s a different condtion called Microphthalmia…Usually is related to other eye conditions, such as defects of the lens, retina, or cornea. Dogs with Microphthalmia have third eyelids and small eyes recessed into the eye socket. You will see this condition once new born pups open their eyes. This condition is unpredictable, the puppies eyes may worsen or the condition may heal itself. See a vet.
This, but not quite about unpredictable. Since it hasn’t been covered so I’ve seen:
THAT collie is a homozygous merle, or “lethal white,” to use the more unsavory term, though NOT to be confused with lethal white horse genetics.
Merle x Merle has a 25% chance of creating a prominently white dog which, when the white occurs around the head or face (as it often does) causes a malformation of ears (via lack of development in auditory neurons via lack of protein, which is associated with pigment) and eyes (creating microphthalmia, dropped or starburst pupils, etc.)
This occurs on PINK skin with white hair; hence why not all Great Pyrenees are deaf, for example.
This is also NOT the same as a piebald/mismarked dog; that DOES happen and deafness or ocular deformities DO occur, but this is ususally a fluke and not something people breed for. The benefit, obviously, of having a homozygous merle is that all subsequent puppies will be merle–more money, hooray.
Incidentally, this is why the “Irish Pattern” marking is so popular across the dog world as a ‘default’ dog marking pattern; it allows for some white without risking the ears and eyes (ie: mark up the nose and muzzle, mark on the chest, white legs or paws.) When piebald goes wrong in addition to this pattern is what creates that random deafness or blindness.
As aforestated, this is also a HUGE issue with great dane breeders, as harlequin produces this same homozygous merle output. Other breeds inflicted? Collies as aforestated, Australian Shepherds in a BIG way, Border Collies, Cocker Spaniels, Shelties, Corgis, Chihuahuas, etc.
So then while people like the OP’s original posted MORONS can parade subsequent offspring around the ring, we have kids like this:
A deaf/visually impaired great dane (bonus demodex!) who was bred to hell and back so the BYB’s could make more $$$.
Or, my dog for example:
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/404370_10100679094685727_12633019_52603987_129071672_n.jpg
In the foreground, who is bilaterally deaf and has microphthalmia, and dropped starbust pupils. Tovin is 2 and his vision has actually recently been on the decline, and every night I lay in bed and dread the day he can no longer see.
So in short, although its no secret I’m not a huge fan of the breeding industry anyway, I don’t know enough foul and offensive words to say to piece of crap, worthless breeders that are willing to CREATE dogs like this. I love my dog endlessly and I will always have a homozygous merle, but who in their RIGHT MIND would find this ok.
On an unrelated note, I believe that white and cream dobermans are not albinos at all but rather the ‘cremello’ version of a dog, as it only comes out of dilute productions (the red and blue doberman varietes on black and red based coats, much as we think of buckskin and palomino) though I could certainly be incorrect.
[QUOTE=irkenequine;6172302]
On an unrelated note, I believe that white and cream dobermans are not albinos at all but rather the ‘cremello’ version of a dog, as it only comes out of dilute productions (the red and blue doberman varietes on black and red based coats, much as we think of buckskin and palomino) though I could certainly be incorrect.[/QUOTE]
Not per the Doberman Pinscher Club of America: http://dpca.org/albino/albino_about.htm
The “cream” Dobes are fawns/isabellas, but they’re not white.
Always good to see more Tovin and Catfish pictures!
[QUOTE=wendy;6169869]
breed clubs really need to start creating and enforcing standards. It would not be hard to insist upon some kind of quality control, similar to what they do with warmbloods- if the dog doesn’t pass a battery of health tests, a conformation test, a temperament test, and performance tests, his/her offspring cannot be registered as representative of the breed.
This would solve SO many problems. The unethical would be stopped in their tracks; the backyard breeder wouldn’t be able to even think they were doing something that was ok; the pet owners wouldn’t be stuck with unhealthy dogs; the dogs would benefit.
What’s the downside? none. Any ethical breeder already does this.[/QUOTE]
The downside - who are these people who will do all this testing for free? Parent breed clubs don’t really have any money; I think I pay $30/year to belong to my club and I get a magazine 1x month. The cost for these programs would have to be born by the GOOD breeders…and what incentive do they have to pay extra for something they are already doing (to a large degree). The bad breeders can simply just sell their puppies unregistered, which is not much of a hardship for their customers anyway.
It’s unreasonable to make owners wait 6+ months for the registration of a dog based on conformation or performance testing. How can you justify putting training time (e.g. field training) into a dog solely for its registration?What happens if it doesn’t “pass”? You can’t even xray for OFA until the dog is 2 years old. Do you have to wait until then to register it?
Do warmblood registries require a performance test?
I don’t think it’s really the same as the warmblood registries - there is no way to recoup the cost of these programs on dogs. People aren’t going to buy $5000 pets because they are “registered” versus $400 if they aren’t.
I think the situation in the OP is terrible, but I don’t see how requiring breed clubs to sort their dogs before registering them will really solve the problem. I think you’d find a lot of breeders who simply stop breeding good dogs.
[QUOTE=hastyreply;6176320]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qjkErdashM
If you have a couple of hours, an interesting watch.[/QUOTE]
This was shown on PBS several years ago and really opened my eyes. Thank you for the link!
Dog breeding is the same as many activities.
There are the people who love breeding and showing and the close knit community of long time dog show people. Most of them can recite pedigrees and genetic testing and faults and when and where they appear in the pedigree and who covers up or surgically fixes faults and who doesn’t and they spend a lot of time picking breedings and researching and watching the offspring of similar breedings. These are the people who make dog showing go round and I am glad to say that in 35 years of showing I met many many many more of these people than any other group. If you are not into it this much, it is a thankless task.
Then there are people who buy a nice dog, take it to a show, win a ribbon or two and have visions of a new canine empire in their heads. If they are not too impulsive they hang around and learn how hard it is to breed nice dogs and that’s that.
But there are always people who can take any animal and any situation and figure there is a profit to be made. The worst of them run puppy mills, the others run con jobs on their customers, including fake genetic testing results, fake papers and semi-fake dogs.
I get tired of hearing dog show people all described as the last group of crooks and con artists.
[QUOTE=S1969;6176395]
I think the situation in the OP is terrible, but I don’t see how requiring breed clubs to sort their dogs before registering them will really solve the problem. I think you’d find a lot of breeders who simply stop breeding good dogs.[/QUOTE]
This is exactly what I was going to say. IF parent clubs were financially able to enforce some sort of health and temperament tests before allowing registration, I imagine about half the club members would simply stop registering with AKC and register with CKC or another alternative registry instead (there’s already plenty of pet, backyard, and puppy mill breeders that do this… CKC registration means absolutely nothing, and absolutely anything can be registered with them- I joke about getting one of our cats CKC registered just to prove how worthless the registration is).
As well as the fact that most people buying dogs want to raise a puppy and are absolutely unwilling to wait until the dog is 2+ years old to buy it, especially in large breeds where the average lifespan is only 5-7 years.
Another thought on this is that not everyone who shows dogs in breed wants to breed their dogs.
[QUOTE=bdj;6173719]
Not per the Doberman Pinscher Club of America: http://dpca.org/albino/albino_about.htm
The “cream” Dobes are fawns/isabellas, but they’re not white.
Always good to see more Tovin and Catfish pictures![/QUOTE]
I loff Tovin! He is adorable.
Don’t fawn dobes tend to develop alopecia at around age 3 or so, eventually ending up totally bald? Or is that another “rare” color I’m thinking of?
