Ethics / Dog Breeding

[HydroPHILE]

I realize this is always a hot topic in this section, and I also realize that there are pro-breeders/anti-breeders and pro-conformation shows/anti-conformation shows here on COTH, but I did search the forum to see if this had been discussed and thoughts on this situation:

The Best of Breed for Rough Collies at Westminster this year. His sire is Wyndlair Avalanche whose purpose for being created was to guarantee that his offspring would be colorful. Wyndlair Avalanche is a double merle, and from what I have read, besides being blind is also deaf.

In my opinion, congrats to him for producing the Westminster BoB this year, but I have to say I disagree with breeding him in the first place.

I can’t find any show history on him (I don’t believe he has ever been shown.)
I can’t find any health history on him (at least not on OFA.)
His sire and dam are half-siblings.

Don’t we make a checklist of what is a responsible breeder? Doesn’t that checklist include, at the least, health testing and a dog that does something (work/show?)

Thoughts? Breeders: what would you have done?

ETA: There ARE [safe/legitimate] links in the above statement showing e-mails from the breeder to an individual as well as information from the co-owner.

[Simkie]

Holy crap. I can’t believe anyone who claims to be responsible would EVER do that. I used to show some collies with a friend of mine as a teenager, and her parents had a successful kennel. Breeding merle to merle was Just. Not. Done. Period.

I guess these people have been able to capitalize on this, but holy shit, what about the dogs? And what does this say about the breed and where it’s going? :no:

[dacasodivine]

Lots of breeders do unethical things like that. As a doberman owner, I am or was on several doberman lists. Someone asked a question about whether people would breed a dog with health problems. More than one person admitted they would breed a dog with a known health problem if it was perfect in every other way just making sure to breed to a dog that didn’t have the same problem.

They claim to breed to better the breed but that is total bull pucky. I know most aren’t in it for the money but sure don’t care much about their breed. Two examples I can think of off the top of my head are Pekingese and German Shepherds. Pekingese can’t hardly breath and GS can’t hardly walk. Who does that? Where is the betterment in doing that?

[tallyho392]

well, this certainly speaks volumes, doesn’t it?
all the hype about only breeding to improve doesn’t seem to apply to those who stand to financially benefit,does it?
just look at all the physical changes that have been made to breeds over the years to make them more “typey” or overly eggagerate a physical characteristic of the breed…now we have dogs suffering from all sorts of health issues, but by damn, they sure “look” good, eh?

[HenryisBlaisin]

To me, those are not responsible or ethical breeders. Introducing a known genetic defect into a line to get a certain color or conformation defeats the purpose of responsible breeding, which is to better the breed in question. Very, very few breeders do that, though in the case of many breeds, the breeders of working dogs do a much better job of it than those who breed for AKC conformation.

It’s no more excusable, IMO than QH breeders who continue to breed HYPP carriers despite the known risks.

OTOH…Shame on the AKC judges who place the GSD with the terrible hind end, or the Peke with obvious wind issues, because those are, by the breed standards, both serious faults. Just like the Western pleasure judges who perpetuate the terrible training and breeding in the horse world by rewarding a grotesque gait in horses, judges make the issue worse if they allow the current trend to get in the way of the written standards.

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=HenryisBlaisin’;6166044]
To me, those are not responsible or ethical breeders. Introducing a known genetic defect into a line to get a certain color or conformation defeats the purpose of responsible breeding, which is to better the breed in question. Very, very few breeders do that, though in the case of many breeds, the breeders of working dogs do a much better job of it than those who breed for AKC conformation.

It’s no more excusable, IMO than QH breeders who continue to breed HYPP carriers despite the known risks.

OTOH…Shame on the AKC judges who place the GSD with the terrible hind end, or the Peke with obvious wind issues, because those are, by the breed standards, both serious faults. Just like the Western pleasure judges who perpetuate the terrible training and breeding in the horse world by rewarding a grotesque gait in horses, judges make the issue worse if they allow the current trend to get in the way of the written standards.[/QUOTE]

Heck, there are whole BREEDS of horses with grotesque gaits out there, no need to point fingers around.
People will excuse all and any they want to excuse, some more than others.

No, it is not right what some breeders do to reach extremes, but maybe the rest will stand up eventually and leave them in the dirt, at least until the next fad.

[Burbank]

not a cool move by the breeder to breed for color in later litters at the possible expense of the sire/dam (are merle/merle always blind/deaf or usually)

on a side note when I was searching to adopt a doberman I saw on one rescue site a white doberman and had to search b/c I had never seen one before and found they are banned by the doberman assoc b/c of all the health problems, but that the single dilutes can have some problems but much less severe, but you still have idiots breeding the “rare” white doberman

then again in Arabs you have Scid, which unlike HYPP you can be a carrier and be normal but breed two Scid horses and you have a 25% chance of a Scid foal that will not live to weaning, so you need to know if your mare or stallion is a carrier

[GotGait]

My dog has his CH title and is from a long line of champions. Nearly all of his relatives are champions and produce champions. My dog is everything I feel a Shiba should be, except for one thing. I think his hind leg angulation is too straight. He’s such a beautiful dog with a lovely disposition, and I so wanted some puppies from him… But those darn hind legs just aren’t good enough. We don’t know where he got that trait because out of all his half brothers and their offspring, it hasnt shown up again. Shoot, maybe I spoiled him too much and it’s something I caused. He had angles at 8 weeks and by 12 he was straightening up. My friend who bred him, took his father, a top 10 AOM CH, out of her breeding program because she thought it may have come from back in his line.
So even though it sucks, I will never breed him.

I won’t pretend there aren’t breeders out there who don’t give a $&(@ because I’ve seen much worse in the show ring than posty hocks. Some people don’t even realizing they’re doing it - they’re just “barn blind” to use a horse term. Others are just breeding to the latest fad and don’t care. I freaking hate what’s been done to GSDs, and that’s just one example.

[GotGait]

[QUOTE=Bluey;6166073]
Heck, there are whole BREEDS of horses with grotesque gaits out there, no need to point fingers around.
People will excuse all and any they want to excuse, some more than others.

No, it is not right what some breeders do to reach extremes, but maybe the rest will stand up eventually and leave them in the dirt, at least until the next fad.[/QUOTE]

And cats! OMG “twisty” cats make me want to puke. If you’ve never seen this travesty, they’re just a Google away.

[MrWinston]

The Albino Doberman

[QUOTE=Burbank;6166170]
not a cool move by the breeder to breed for color in later litters at the possible expense of the sire/dam (are merle/merle always blind/deaf or usually)

on a side note when I was searching to adopt a doberman I saw on one rescue site a white doberman and had to search b/c I had never seen one before and found they are banned by the doberman assoc b/c of all the health problems, but that the single dilutes can have some problems but much less severe, but you still have idiots breeding the “rare” white doberman

then again in Arabs you have Scid, which unlike HYPP you can be a carrier and be normal but breed two Scid horses and you have a 25% chance of a Scid foal that will not live to weaning, so you need to know if your mare or stallion is a carrier[/QUOTE]

This was the result of one albino bitch born in a litter that the AKC allowed to be registered without recognizing that there had never been an albino doberman before. Once the precedent was set, they would not disallow for registration of albinos even though the DPCA did everything they could to prevent it. The concession was that a WZ was added to the registration number of any Doberman with the lineage to carry the albino gene. This gene has been exploited by many bybs for years and the dogs are pitiful examples who don’t even resemble the breed. They have health and temperament issues as well as awful conformation due to the inbreeding required to produce the albino color.There have been almost no albinos to succeed in any performance events (at the lowest levels) and they are banned from conformation competition (not that they could ever win). This really was a sin committed against the Doberman breed. Interestingly, there have also been no successful Dobermans with the WZ registration to have any success in the conformation (only the albino color is banned from the conf. ring, not dogs of an accepted color even if they have the WZ registration) ring and very few with any other performance success. Inferior genes all the way.

Being a Dobe person it probably touches a nerve with me but it’s been no different for many other breeds.

[S1969]

[QUOTE=HenryisBlaisin’;6166044]
To me, those are not responsible or ethical breeders. Introducing a known genetic defect into a line to get a certain color or conformation defeats the purpose of responsible breeding, which is to better the breed in question. [/QUOTE]

Agree 100%. It is not ethical to breed a known defect for the purpose of color. And it’s the sort of thing that makes good breeders look bad!

People don’t really breed for color in my breed so I can’t really think of an equivalent…except maybe that there are people who have looked into breeding for a natural docked tail (or tailless) brittany. What I’ve heard about it is that it’s somehow connected with a “kill gene” so litters bred like this can be very small (or nonexistent) because they die. But I don’t know anyone that has ever tried to breed for this one trait.

I have never met a breeder who really makes any “real” money on their breeding. I see a lot more of the opposite - people who actually hold onto the nicer puppies because they want to show and own them.

But, I’m sure there are all kinds out there. Probably people who have cosmetic surgery done on their dogs (also illegal) and put braces on them to correct their bite…it happens. Not ethical, or legal (for conformation) but people do it.

[tradewind]

Responsible breeders do not breed for color, they breed for structure, temperment, and health first. My breed comes in a variety of colors, and the standard specifically states a good one can not be a bad color. Of course you get judges, pet buyers etc with a bug up their ass about a certain color, which is wrong. Within all disciplines of animal breeding, you have people who do things that are not up to snuff. Some of the worst mutants I have seen in any species have been produced by show cat people…

[Larksmom]

I have a good friend…

That I would consider to be a backyard breeder. He had a nice Lab, and bought a bitch with the express purpose of breeding. He has small children, and the male has been around them all his life. I think something in him has snapped and they had to rehome him, as he was no longer safe around the kids. They did breed, got 13 puppies:eek:, most of whom lived. As the last one was sold, they got several requests from CL, and decided to maybe go for two litters this year. I am mildly horrified, not because he is uncaring but I don’t think he puts a lot of stock into where they are going, and I just see more and more puppies…

[AlmostDun]

A bit of musing and rambling on the topic…

A double merle stud dog is a more extreme version of using a cremello stud horse to ensure that all the foals are buckskin or dun. A difference between dogs and horses is that, apart from increased chances of sunburn, most cremello studs don’t suffer ill effects from carrying two copies of the color gene. I personally don’t like the fact that the stud dog was bred and had to live blind and deaf. Seems unfair to the dog.

As for whether the a double merle’s offspring are detrimental to the breed, compare them to horses which carry the frame overo gene. A single copy of either merle in dogs or frame in horses is no problem for the carrier. However, two copies of the gene produces a non-functional animal. Knowing what we know about the effects of both merle and frame, is it wrong to keep the carriers in the breeding pools just because we like the colors? The difference is that the double merle dog might survive to breeding age and (with enough attention and stimulation) have a reasonably happy existence as a couch potato A double frame foal almost certainly will not.

What’s interesting to me is that the Harlequin gene in Great Danes is pretty much the merle gene in collies. The code of ethics for Great Dane breeders specifies Harlequin to Harlequin as a permitted breeding. :eek: Yet, fawn to black or fawn to Harlequin is forbidden. http://www.gdca.org/colorcode.html. As it currently stands, the fawn and the black lines might as well be different breeds, as there is no permissible way cross the two lines. I rather wonder if these rules are rooted in incomplete understanding of genetics and have now become irrevocably entrenched despite changes in genetic understanding.

[HydroPHILE]

If the sire originally stated had been born decades ago to a person who used their Collies for herding, I am almost certain he would have been culled. It seems greedy to me that his breeders would have produced him solely to ensure colored litters in the future.

[lewin]

Looking at some of the pictures of the show rough collies…what has happened to their eyes? Some of the show dogs look like they are constantly squinting. What is the reasoning behind putting small eyes on what was meant to be a herding dog?

[spinandslide]

I dont breed dogs…

But if I did, Id be breeding for what the dog should be, use wise…not for the hottest color or some weird “attribute” that would place them in the show arena.

[jadewolf]

Jeez. Wyndlair Avalanche. I remember reading about him a while back, poor dog. It’s utterly repugnant that the breeders would condemn a dog to a life of misery, just so they can have a stud who will throw all merle pups.

I am so disgusted by much of the dog breeding industry in so many ways. I wish there were more ethical and responsible breeders out there, but they seem so few and far between.

[hastyreply]

I spent my weekend at work trying to convince a coworker not to breed her aussie. She’d never had a herding dog before and had never had a dog so devoted to her as this one and “wants to have a part of her continue”. On top of that she’s picked another merle to breed her to. I asked if she realized that she would have some white pups and to be responsible they would need to be killed. She kept saying “culled” and I said killed, cuz that’s harder to do when you come down to it, esp if your not a breeder. I also pointed out she could loose her wonderful dog breeding her or she might just have one pup and it would be white, is it still easy to “cull” like that. I then went on and told her how even though my dogs aren’t related to my previous dogs, the early dogs live on through the ones I have now, Why I felt that way… etc. She said I gave her something to think about. This dog was a rehome when got her which contributes to her velcro nature. Also her pups maybe nothing like her in looks or nature. Maybe I just beat my head against a wall, who knows but she seemed to be thinking about what I said.

[Arizona_DQ]

[QUOTE=hastyreply;6168079]
I spent my weekend at work trying to convince a coworker not to breed her aussie. She’d never had a herding dog before and had never had a dog so devoted to her as this one and “wants to have a part of her continue”. On top of that she’s picked another merle to breed her to. I asked if she realized that she would have some white pups and to be responsible they would need to be killed. She kept saying “culled” and I said killed, cuz that’s harder to do when you come down to it, esp if your not a breeder. I also pointed out she could loose her wonderful dog breeding her or she might just have one pup and it would be white, is it still easy to “cull” like that. I then went on and told her how even though my dogs aren’t related to my previous dogs, the early dogs live on through the ones I have now, Why I felt that way… etc. She said I gave her something to think about. This dog was a rehome when got her which contributes to her velcro nature. Also her pups maybe nothing like her in looks or nature. Maybe I just beat my head against a wall, who knows but she seemed to be thinking about what I said.[/QUOTE]

When someone tells me that want to breed their dog because they want more “just like her”, I ask them if their children are all alike and if the kids are all “like their mother”… It usually works…