Eurosilver--what's not to like here?

Okay so I have been studying TB bloodlines and conformation for sport lately. And, I took advantage of Border’s going out of business sale and bought two awesome books: “How Horses Move” and “The Horse Conformation Handbook.” Both are awesome! Then I dug up the Horse of the Delaware Valley’s 2011 stallion issue and looked at the stallion eye candy.

Now, I am NOT interested in breeding anything! But just in case I come across a nice TB for sale I would be VERY interested if it looked like or was related to this horse!! I don’t know what he moves like but I bet he is a good mover and could jump too.

http://www.pennridgefarms.com/stallions/eurosilver-stallion

I have studied conformation for years and dabbled in anatomy.

This horse looks nearly perfect to me. Maybe his top line is a little lacking but I don’t think just making babies develops it much.

I don’t mind his pedigree either. Thinking of eventing/jumping here.

http://www.pedigreequery.com/eurosilver

What do you think?

I can’t comment on the pedigree but he has a nice neckset, really lovely shoulder, and good looking forelegs.

I wouldn’t touch him with a ten foot pole.

Unbridled’s Song scares the pea turkey out of me. If you would be interested in breeding to Eurosilver for jumping/eventing, wait until his get are at least racing to see if and how they hold up.

That is not what I’d consider a good sport horse pedigree, regardless.

Actually the last numbers I saw showed that overall Unbridled’s Song is actually a bit better than average as far as overall soundness of progeny goes. It’s true that he had some big name horses break down but sometimes the things that make horses “big” are the things that make them break down regardless of their parentage. Like Pine Island, regally bred but so crooked it was a wonder she survived as long as she did.

I would also think that Eurosilver’s conformation would be more important than his siblings.

There are more than a few TB commentators who have talked about Unbridled’s Song and lack of “toughness” in his get. It’s rather interesting to read all of them. The consensus is that US and his sire Unbridled are examples of the “new” type of TB with huge rear end power. This is the Native Dancer (big QH) type–very big, very fast, and very precocious. The commentators all agree that because of these characteristics, the horses may be asked to do more at a young age than their bodies are able to handle. Temperament is supposed to be very good. All also seem to agree that US can and often does throw offset knees and otherwise bad front legs, along with less than straight and sweeping movement. In sale foals, leg straightening was often done.

If allowed to mature and with correct legs and movement mechanics, the US’s are often just as sound as any other lines.

US was a failure as a shuttle sire to Australia; their breeders gave up him after just a few years. The reasons given were that he is a quintessential dirt track sire who doesn’t translate to turf. His get are believed to need groomed level tracks to excel because of the leg problems. Also, it has been speculated that US just wasn’t a good fit for the Aussie mare base, which tend to be smaller and lighter, so the potential for a horse put together by committee was greater. It’s also been pointed out that the genetics of Aussie horses are enough different from ours that the magic of linebreeding was not enough to overcome the differences in phenotype.

Eurosilver himself was described as “a pariah in the Bluegrass”.

It is hard to tell from the photo if his knees are off set. The rest of him looks quite good. When I first saw his picture on the cover of Horse of the Delaware Valley, I thought he was a warmblood. Just thinking of sport horse breeding here.

I didn’t like Smarty Jones’ conformation as well but it served him quite well racing.

(second horse down)
http://www.ghostridgefarms.com/stallions

Though I think his pedigree is better for sport.
http://www.pedigreequery.com/smarty+jones

I just wonder how many TB breeders for sport ever take advantage of the older (less expensive!) TB stallions that have good conformation and sport bloodlines. So many people now just jump on the warmblood bandwagon thinking the TBs aren’t that great.

I’ve seen Unbridled Song in person and he is a beautiful horse, but he scares me as well in the soundness/hardiness department. However, I don’t think Native Dancer was quarter horse type at all. He was much bigger, stood over alot of ground and presented more like a 'chaser type with that incredible neck. I love many of his lines, it’s just a matter of knowing which ones to choose. The Jig Times have held up well in 'chasing and are certainly that type. JMHO
PennyG

I love Eurosilver…

Love my Eurosilver out of a Miswaki mare. He is three this year (2012) Don’t know what he’s going to be, but what ever he decides to do, he’s a lovely, smart, and kind horse who is safe and sane.

My mom and I bought him as a racing prospect with potential for another career should he not want to run as she was a racehorse trainer all her life before she became too ill to do it full time, and I was trying to help her “stay in the game.” She has since passed, and my heart isn’t in racing him. Although I watch him train himself (literally!) in the pasture, and wonder if I missed the boat…

I did have the opportunity to ride a couple of horses by Unbridled when my Mom was training, and I have to say they were among the most intelligent and talented horses I’d ever ridden. And in defense of Unbridled’s Song, his dam Trolley Song, is by Caro, sire of Loyal Pal, Cozzene and Winning Colors, and out of a mare that ran 69 times and lived to 34, so there is some hardiness in the pedigree. Unbridled himself needs no defense.

Eurosilver’s mare line is quite turf oriented, and that works well for jumping often.

If I were breeding for sport, I would take a suitable mare to Eurosilver in a minute. If I were looking at OTTB’s, I certainly would look at similarly bred horses.

“If allowed to mature and with correct legs and movement mechanics, the US’s are often just as sound as any other lines.” vineyridge

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/395004_2985476714751_1197026548_3369603_1293620062_n.jpg

Why would you spend that kind of money breeding to a stallion that may throw a sporthorse when you could breed to some of the top producers in the industry for the same or less? Give me Popeye K any day!

[QUOTE=vineyridge;5777909]
There are more than a few TB commentators who have talked about Unbridled’s Song and lack of “toughness” in his get. It’s rather interesting to read all of them. The consensus is that US and his sire Unbridled are examples of the “new” type of TB with huge rear end power. This is the Native Dancer (big QH) type–very big, very fast, and very precocious. The commentators all agree that because of these characteristics, the horses may be asked to do more at a young age than their bodies are able to handle. Temperament is supposed to be very good. All also seem to agree that US can and often does throw offset knees and otherwise bad front legs, along with less than straight and sweeping movement. In sale foals, leg straightening was often done.

If allowed to mature and with correct legs and movement mechanics, the US’s are often just as sound as any other lines.

US was a failure as a shuttle sire to Australia; their breeders gave up him after just a few years. The reasons given were that he is a quintessential dirt track sire who doesn’t translate to turf. His get are believed to need groomed level tracks to excel because of the leg problems. Also, it has been speculated that US just wasn’t a good fit for the Aussie mare base, which tend to be smaller and lighter, so the potential for a horse put together by committee was greater. It’s also been pointed out that the genetics of Aussie horses are enough different from ours that the magic of linebreeding was not enough to overcome the differences in phenotype.

Eurosilver himself was described as “a pariah in the Bluegrass”.[/QUOTE]

I think you mean Northern Dancer as the QH type? Or did his QH look come from Native Dancer?

I wish you luck with Eurosilver and hope he pans out for you as a sire. I have some issues with US and soundness, although the Caro blood is certainly appealing. With Miswaki, you bring in Mr P, also known for soundness issues and crooked legs. Eurosilver looks pretty correct from that angle – I would be a bit happier with his cannon bones being shorter and his hocks set further down. Was he pinfired in front? That brings up some questions, too. He is handsome and a lovely expression. Good luck!
PennyG

The poster stated “Now, I am NOT interested in breeding anything! But just in case I come across a nice TB for sale I would be VERY interested if it looked like or was related to this horse!! I don’t know what he moves like but I bet he is a good mover and could jump too.”

Popeye K is very nice…no doubt. However, I think the poster was asking about thoroughbred horses.

My horse is a gelding, and so there is no breeding interest other than how he does now as a sport horse so that others can see whether it is a successful type of horse for comparison.

A Fine Romance then. Proven producer. Breeding is enough of a crapshoot without reinventing the wheel.

Blast from the past…“Hand To Hand” in the direct damline of Eurosilver. I knew a gelding son of his who was 3-4 level (IIRC) dressage horse back in the 80’s. He was also grey, and was called “Shake”, which was a play on his sire’s name.

Please notice that Hand to Hand is a many generations removed tail male descendant of Hyperion.

“Interestingly, soundness was never an issue as far as I could remember. Trainers generally commented that they were sound enough (and they liked soft turf) and one of his (Unbridled Song) better horses Omnitrader had 119 lifetime starts.
Byron Rogers
Pedigree Consultants LLC Australia”

I have one I really like so I have been thinking a bit too much on the subject of “What’s not to like about Eurosilver?‘ The forum came out strongly against this horse given the reputation of unsoundness in Unbridled Song…hence the “don’t buy or breed to a son, daughter or relative of such breeding.” I say, if they are poorly made, crooked, or crazy, of course don’t breed that horse (or buy that horse if you want to compete it) no matter what its bloodline or breed. However, the statistics for Unbridled Song and his get don’t make a good case for completely throwing the baby out with the bath water. This bloodline is strong in the work ethic category. These are bloodlines that the average consumer at one time could not touch. This is also the bloodlines that still have some size to them, unlike many of the other lines that are starting to look more and more like quarter horses.

Yes, several high profile breakdowns are horses sired by Unbridled Song, highest profile being Eight Belles. From my perspective, work ethic, rideability, stoicism, and a desire to please make a recipe for this kind of problem that cannot be measured statistically. Slow horses that don’t want to work usually don’t go lame or compete or even get out of the barnyard. I don’t disagree that American TB needs to return to a soundness based program of breeding, but don’t think it is going to happen. One breeds or buys a young horse in the five to six figure range, you expect to make money in today‘s environment. The days of the old money rich breeding and waiting to see if one of their hundred head is going to win the Derby, and not worrying about the rest producing is OVER. Racehorses are alongside slot machines, an investment that is expected to make a return, not be a loss.

This discussion of high profile breakdown is not even really taking into consideration the changing track surfaces and how that effects soundness over time for the past few years.

Anyway, we are hearing the death knell of an industry that we sport horse enthusiasts have so long taken for granted. And I hope that the folks that do breed for sport will still consider these types of bloodlines as valuable when it does end. They are “commercial” for a reason. I will tell you that a fit racehorse that is 16.2 to 17 hands has to want to be cooperative when it is in the stall and going to the track to even get to the races. We hear much about this horse or that one that was or is difficult, but overall, these horses that are successful in large numbers are rideable and biddable. From my seat, on their backs, it’s the “cheaper” bred thoroughbreds that would hurt you.

I am so glad for folks who have continued and are continuing to breed Thoroughbreds for sport. It has been an un-glamorous job. I have no ability in that direction, and I cheer you all on. Just don’t forget, and the clones continue to prove it strongly, nature produces individuals with individual personalities and inclinations. You can encourage it with best to best, but you never know what is going to hit the ground until it does, and from breeding to competition is A LONG TIME. Breeding is and will continue to be an art, not a science, and requires a healthy dose of dream to actually come to fruition as a Secretariat or Gem Twist.

I would hate someone to pass up a sound, worthy riding horse with Unbridled’s Song bloodlines (and perhaps consign it to the kill buyers) because of some of the disparaging remarks you hear about Unbridled’s Song.

I certainly love my Buddha gelding (Unbridled’s Song grandson). He isn’t particularly tall (just over 16 hands) but he’s gorgeous, very nice gaits, big stride, extremely smart, very personable (pocket pony who loves people) and a great brain–very calm and confident with not a spook in him. He’s opinionated, but the kind that makes you a better rider rather than the kind that bucks you off and gets you hurt. He’s been very careful with me, a timid rider. He just likes to discuss things a bit… comes with the high intelligence, I think.

Just found this thread and thought I’d throw in my 2 cents. My mare is a Eurosilver daughter and she is a phenomenal jumper and sound athlete. She is six and I have had her for 2 years. We did a George Morris clinic last year and she is a brave, bold jumper who is sane and patent. She has great conformation and hasn’t been lame or off a day since I’ve owned her. Her conformation is great and she has developed quite a nice top line with correct work. Perhaps her best feature is her brain. She is so sensible and quiet. She never spooks, is never marish and has even carried novice riders over fences these past few months with the consistency of a packer. So if even half of these qualities came from Eurosilver, he has my vote. :slight_smile:

One problem with Unbridled/Unbridled’s Song for breeding for long term sport horse/soundness is the John O’Gaunt pasterns (short, upright) that have been identified as passing along through that line. Otherwise, the John O’Gaunts are superlative lines for sport horses.

If you’re buying a horse on the ground you can avoid them. If breeding, they can always pop up.

Checking in

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10207437526115131&set=a.1674549382387.96123.1197026548&type=1&theater

Just a photo of my Eurosilver competing at Prelim. Love love love him.