Event horse breeding

[tom]

@fannie mae;8033406

…
heraldik’s production does take large profit from one single breeder, late mr. butt, who made use of the stallion many times and had a perfect rider and trainer in andreas dibowski, who basically took over all of the suitable young horses mr. butt had bred to introduce to sport.
out of these, andreas managed a few to become top star eventers, avedon and leon, which created demand amongst other top star event riders in germany (IKlimke), assuming heraldik’s offspring in general would qualify for top star eventing. this is how abraxxas and tabasco came to her barn (but she did try others, too, who didn’t seem suitable. even tabasco has meanwhile been sold.)
at the same time andreas developed a lot of other horses to top star eventers, too, just that their breeding was not so much heard of as most tb stallions are lesser known and breed a lot less.
…

there are 960 (!) kids registered by heraldik with the german FN yearbook.
how does that compare to other tb stallions?
out of 960 kids a handful of internationally successful ones can be selfunderstood by a n y stallion, no matter if tb or wb, no matter if eventing, dressage or jumping.

in order to really identify and “allocate” favourable genetic influence of any stallion, specially for eventing, you have to be fair and run comparisons to others.
these comparisons are hard to find for the simple reason, that there is no other tb stallion of such breeding numbers to compare heraldik to.
does that make heraldik a super event stallion or does that owe his breeding success to the sheer number of foals he produced because he was a succesful jumper himself?
self performance vs breed performance?
you tell me.

Sabine, I think you under-estimate Heraldik’s influence. Mr. Butts bred a lot of Heraldik’s super-star progeny but the stallion sired many other very good eventers not bred by this exceptional breeder of eventing horses. Heraldik has Top 100 progeny not bred by Butts.

Plus we need to take into account the following:

– Heraldik stood at a yard focused on dressage breeding much more than eventing or showjumping breeding;

– the quality of the local mares was not great;

– Heraldik was used to a great extent by breeders who wanted to produce a filly for their breeding program because their mares were heavy and old-fashioned; sport horses was not the goal. (This is in direct contrast to Ireland, where only a handful of breeders every hope for a filly. And by “handful” I mean I have met only a few breeders who ever stated their preference for a filly.)

What TB stallion in recent years has sired as many Top 100 - 300 eventers as Heraldik? Most of the highly ranked TB sires (and other sires) are highly ranked because they have one or two superstars OR a large number of progeny earning a few points here or there that quickly add up. Yes, Heraldik has a lot of progeny with just a few points but he also he many in the Top 100, 200, and 300.

Progeny of Heraldik in FEI Rankings

2014
Eventing
Sire: 22
Damsire: 21

Jumping
Sire: 1
Damsire: 1

Dressage
Sire: 1
Damsire: 0

2013
Eventing
Sire: 36
Damsire: 13

Jumping
Sire: 1
Damsire: 1

Dressage
Sire: 1
Damsire: 0

2012
Eventing
Sire: 36
Damsire: 6

Jumping
Sire: 4
Damsire: 0

Dressage
Sire: 2
Damsire: 0

2011
Eventing
Sire: 39
Damsire: 5

Jumping
Sire: 3
Damsire: 1

Dressage
Sire: 2
Damsire: 0

2010
Eventing
Sire: 34
Damsire: 2

Jumping
Sire: 2
Damsire: 0

Dressage
Sire: 2
Damsire: 0

2009
Eventing
Sire: 9
Damsire: data not reported

Jumping
Sire: 2
Damsire: 0

Dressage
Sire: 1
Damsire: 0

2008
Eventing
Sire: 4
Damsire: 1

Jumping
Sire: 2
Damsire: 0

Dressage
Sire: 2
Damsire: 0

2007
Eventing
Sire: 4
Damsire: 1

Jumping
Sire: 1
Damsire: 0

Dressage
Sire: 0
Damsire: 0

2006
Eventing
Sire: 8
Damsire: 0

Jumping
Sire: 0
Damsire: 0

Dressage
Sire: 0
Damsire: 0

2005
Eventing
Sire: 6
Damsire: 0

Jumping
Sire: 0
Damsire: 0

Dressage
Sire: 0
Damsire: 0

2004
Eventing
Sire: 4
Damsire: 0

Jumping
Sire: 0
Damsire: 0

Dressage
Sire: 0
Damsire: 0

FYI, I offered semen from Heraldik to breeders in Ireland in 2004 and 2005, before he was famous, and there was almost zero interest. I own a mare out of Heraldik’s full-sister.

[Elles]

And it looks like Stan The Man sired a good showjumper:
http://www.horsetelex.nl/horses/pedigree/609816

[QUOTE=vineyridge;8035924]
I suppose ambition is the same thing as bravery.

Fannie Mae, Stan The Man, long before Sam, was notable as the sire of Shear L’Eau and Shear H20, both Olympic eventing horses. Shear L’Eau won at Athens in 2004, and Shear H20 was at Sydney in 2000.

Dirk Shrade had a BW mare by him, Sindy 43, who was 5th at Luhmuhlen 4* in 2006.

I think it is safe to say that Stan The Man was not made by Sam.[/QUOTE]

[Elles]

That sounds much worse than shooting at a moving target. There is such a time lapse between a foal being born and the moment it (hopefully!) reaches 4 star level.

[QUOTE=vineyridge;8036110]
Well, the problem is that we have no idea what eventing will be like in 10 or more years. You have to know what essential traits you are breeding for, and we just don’t know today what will be essential in eventing in 2025. They could abolish the CCI; they could remove the dressage coefficient; they could raise or lower jump heights in sj and xc; they could raise or lower the dressage difficulty; they could shorten XC courses still more in CCIs, if they continue to exist. They could require that sj or XC be last in all events. Any of these changes would affect essential traits.[/QUOTE]

[D_BaldStockings]

Well, the problem is that we have no idea what eventing will be like in 10 or more years. You have to know what essential traits you are breeding for, and we just don’t know today what will be essential in eventing in 2025. They could abolish the CCI; they could remove the dressage coefficient;
In my dreams!
they could raise or lower jump heights in sj and xc; they could raise <This or lower the dressage difficulty; they could shorten XC courses still more in CCIs, if they continue to exist. Bet on it
They could require that sj or XC be last in all events. Any of these changes would affect essential traits.

I know, I’m just being negative; yet it seems that the stamina, courage and speedand soundness to continue are being ‘downgraded’, while dressage precision,‘jump difficulty/technicality’ and ‘dressage gaits’ are being rewarded more and more.
This effectively phases out the pure TB in future; and gives a nod to dressage x jump breeding with some TB behind it. But my crystal ball may be broken, I hope.

[Elles]

In that case it would no longer be a discipline separate from sj and dressage. It would just be sj AND dressage.

[vineyridge]

[QUOTE=Elles;8037165]
In that case it would no longer be a discipline separate from sj and dressage. It would just be sj AND dressage.[/QUOTE]

It already is. The FEI has changed the reasons for stadium and dressage in eventing. Instead of the traditional ones, now the purpose of each of those disciplines is to show a horse who has been trained and is competent in each of those specialist disciplines, instead of them being tied to the training requirements for a cavalry horse. The rules for SJ are tied to the rules for Show Jumping; the same is true for dressage. The concept of a separate form of dressage for eventing has been thrown out the window.

This has all happened within the past ten years or so. That’s why it’s impossible to tell what sort of horse will be needed in the future.

I don’t understand where all these changes in the fundamental nature of eventing are coming from. I can understand that to stay in the Olympics, long format needed to be changed; but the rest of the changes were unnecessary. They have to have come from someone or somewhere.

I also don’t understand why the traditional eventing nations have gone along like sheep.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

[QUOTE=D_BaldStockings;8036417]

I know, I’m just being negative; yet it seems that the stamina, courage and speedand soundness to continue are being ‘downgraded’, while dressage precision,‘jump difficulty/technicality’ and ‘dressage gaits’ are being rewarded more and more.
This effectively phases out the pure TB in future; and gives a nod to dressage x jump breeding with some TB behind it. But my crystal ball may be broken, I hope.[/QUOTE]

I disagree. If you talk to currently competing 4* riders they will all say they want more TB horses. Yes…for a few years, several tried the fancy WB…but in the end, they have found them to hard to get fit for xc…and many not having the heart or try when things get hard. Many are back to buying OTTBs and desperately looking for sources of high quality TBs as UL prospects.

There is still a market for the big WB type…but it is for the YRs who top out at 2*.

IMO…I’m having an easier time marketing a young FULL TB or a WB cross that is 75%+ blood to UL riders looking for a 4* prospect. But they need to be good movers (NOT GP dressage mover but good movers) and have a good jump.

I don’t see the sport at the 4* level change dramatically…the issue really is that less than 1% of eventers need or will want to go at that level. So most breeders doing this for a business should be aiming to produce that nice fancy 2* horse (which isn’t that hard)…and will luck into a 4* star horse.

(ETA: my own breeding goals are bit different so I aim to also breed what I like to ride and am in a position where I could keep most of what I breed(and am hoping for fillies) My type of ride does not happen to be the typical ammy friendly sort of rides or what I would be aiming for the 2* or LL market (which is the biggest market) but more what a lot of pros/4* riders like. Fwd horses, sensitive and bold. Smart too. Don’t give me a kick and pull ride.)

[fannie_mae]

tom, i don’t get it, please explain:

[QUOTE=tom;8036188]
Precisely. He sired a lot of good eventers in Ireland before being sold to Germany.[/QUOTE]

@tom;8036218

… I offered semen from Heraldik to breeders in Ireland in 2004 and 2005, before he was famous, and there was almost zero interest. I own a mare out of Heraldik’s full-sister.

how can he have sired a lot of good eventers in ireland b e f o r e, but caused zero interest ten years later?
what link am i missing?
when was he in ireland?

reason i am asking:

i was trying to learn about heraldik’s carreer and found this article:
http://buschreiter.de/archiv/heraldik.html

to sum it up:
the stallion was bred in slowakia and injured age two, as such never raced.
went to a slowakian sport horse barn and became a superior jumper himself, succeeding in a few nations cups for his slowakian homeland.
he was sold to germany and owned by holsteiner jumper rider and holstein breeder peter nagel and georg clausen. this is were casper/birkhof found him in the mid 90s, bought him, promoted him and his (german) breeding carreer started.
the article quotes “the stallion bred more than 100 mares in his first breeding year…”

this is were my own research sets in.
FNyearbook shows 60 kids born in 1996, suggesting that he must have bred closer to 200 mares in 1995 rather than just “more than 100”.
reason for that is simple. by rule of thumb it takes 2-3 breedings in order for one mature horse to finally make it into sport/FNregistration.

FNyearbook states 960 kids by heraldik, that suggests ttl lifetime breedings >2.000 (in germany, that is).

@tom;8036218

…What TB stallion in recent years has sired as many Top 100 - 300 eventers as Heraldik?..

none, for sure.
but i can’t think of any other tb stallion having bred so many mares, either.
that’s all i am saying.

my intention is not to neglect heraldik’s influence as an eventing sire.
my intention is to source where it comes from (apart from top producing riders) and ttl breedings >2.000 will eventually help to take most stallions up into FEI top rankings with double digit numbers of get.

i certainly do not question 40+ heraldik kids in FEIrankings.
my (theoretic) question is:
how many FEI kids would stan the man have produced if he had had 2.000+ breedings?

and i picked stan the man just as an example for a tb sire who shows a higher quota of eventing progeny than heraldik, which i find noteworthy.
it backs my assumption that eventers are easier “made” then “bred” if only channeled to the right hands, since stan the man never enjoyed the demand of breeding heraldik did amongst breeders for all disciplines.

[Elles]

Anyway, still most of the best 4 star eventing horses have an xx/ox percentage of at least 55% and some are still 100% or little less than that. Does that also have anything to do with how the horse is produced and who produces it?

[Elles]

http://www.paulickreport.com/features/pin-oak-stud-presents-bloodlines/bloodlines-can-frankel-meet-lofty-stallion-expectations/
I am wondering if not a lot of the best of showjumpers are also produced. As it is very, very difficult to breed the best of the best in an assembly line of way. The same might be true for dressage horses.

[vineyridge]

Germany didn’t start breeding for event horses until the past ten years or so. Eventing wasn’t/isn’t a big market for German horse breeders. Stan the Man’s success in Ireland was with traditionally Irish bred mares with high TB percentages, which you will not find in Germany. He did sire two full brothers who made it to the Olympic Games. I think he may have been sold to Germany around 1992 or 1993 before Shear L’Eau and Shear H20 got to the top.

There was simply no special reason for him to have been used by German breeders in the beginning.

[omare]

I think a problem is that warmblood statistics do not compare to thoroughbred race produce statistics in that it is pretty hard if not impossible to determine what percent of a stallion’s “get” succeed at the top level while in racing it is all out there.

For example, Darco is a fabulous stallion and is demonstrated he could produce at the top of the sport but I also know he had lots of children. Kannan is another. Of course there are stallions that no matter how many mares they bred and no matter the mare quality could not produce at the top of the sport.

The percentage of 1.5 m horses or dressage GP horses or 4 star horses (that is UL horse to total number of foals) a stallion sires or even a stud book produces is not an easy number to find.

I still wonder what the percentage is for the top stallions–10-15 percent??

[Elles]

Some sj sires have quite a lot of 1.60 m offspring, looking at Horsetelex.

[Elles]

http://www.horsesinternational.com/opinion/horse-cheetah/

http://www.horsemagazine.com/thm/2014/12/will-warmbloods-take-over-eventing/

http://www.horsemagazine.com/thm/2014/11/dutch-breeding-looking-to-the-future/

[Elles]

The KWPN is convinced that showjumping bloodlines are suited for eventing. Because showjumpers normally also have a rather high blood percentage. Is it true that showjumping bloodlines are best suited for eventing?

[Elles]

With regard to this:
http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/sh...Horse-Breeding

Normally Arabians are also considered blood horses and if you look at it that from that perspective a number of horses at the bottom of the 3rd Word document have a higher blood percentage:
http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/pedigree/302072
http://www.horsetelex.com//horses/pedigree/1501387
http://www.horsetelex.com//horses/pedigree/1495554
http://www.horsetelex.com//horses/pedigree/336644
http://www.horsetelex.com//horses/pedigree/73859

[bornfreenowexpensive]

[QUOTE=Elles;8042780]
The KWPN is convinced that showjumping bloodlines are suited for eventing. Because showjumpers normally also have a rather high blood percentage. Is it true that showjumping bloodlines are best suited for eventing?[/QUOTE]

not necessarily. Jumping is 2/3 of the sport yes but it is not same scope needed as for straight jumping. Being a good mover with correct gaits is also important (correct more than extremely fancy). There have been very successful more dressage bred horses as well. You need a good gallop and you need a good jumper. And while you want careful jumper…if they are too careful they often will not be brave enough xc and/or spend too much time in the air over jumping.

What you need greatly depends on the individual horse.

[Elles]

http://horsetalk.co.nz/2015/03/04/sires-genes-contribute-more-progeny-study/
New research by scientists in the US has revealed that mammals may use more genetic material from their fathers than their mothers.
The study at the University of North Carolina School of Medicine shows that although mammals inherit equal amounts of genetic mutations from their parents – the mutations that make an individual who they are – they actually “use” more of the DNA inherited from the father.

http://horsetalk.co.nz/2015/03/04/10-year-roadmap-irish-horse-sport/

[Elles]

This article about the sire giving more of his genes.
For example what does that say about jumping ability in horses if for example you look at a horse like Hello Sanctos and look at his linebreeding to bloodhorses:
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10838519&blood=10&quota= xx/ox 48.63%
7.8% Rantzau (2x) http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=67755
4.7% Harphortas (2x) http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=330050
4.7% Furioso (4x) http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=318844
at least 3.6% St. Simon (79x) http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=783229
3.1% Ibrahim (2x) http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=594032
3.1% Mexico (2x) http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=551837
3.1% Fra Diavolo (2x) http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=679782
2.7% Orange Peel (9x) http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=696004
2.5% Plein d’Espoirs (3x) http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=456750
at least 2.2% Ajax (26x) http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=460491

[Manni01]

@fannie mae;8037601

tom, i don’t get it, please explain:

Quote Originally Posted by tom View Post
Precisely. He sired a lot of good eventers in Ireland before being sold to Germany.
Quote Originally Posted by tom View Post
… I offered semen from Heraldik to breeders in Ireland in 2004 and 2005, before he was famous, and there was almost zero interest. I own a mare out of Heraldik’s full-sister.

how can he have sired a lot of good eventers in ireland b e f o r e, but caused zero interest ten years later?
what link am i missing?
when was he in ireland?

Fannie Mae… Tom was talking about Stan the Man NOT Heraldik in the first quote. In the second quote he was talking about Heraldik