Any comments on the below?
The Right Type
If one looks at the breeding of the great multi-talented horses mentioned above and also the super elite of modern event horses, it’s easy to see the type of quality horse we should be breeding. I’ve highlighted eight modern horses, seven of them champions at the highest level, as they are the only ones I know that, on the same day, have scored 80 percent or better in the dressage at four-star level, made a four-star cross-country look like a Pony Club course, and jumped so easily that a 1.60-meter fence would be no difficulty.
• Galan de Sauvagere—ridden by Nicolas Touzaint, 72.87 percent Thoroughbred, registered as a Selle Français (Joly Jumper—Douce Julia, Julius Caesar)
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10242286
• Toytown—ridden by Zara Phillips, believed to be Irish, breeding unknown
• Supreme Rock—ridden by Pippa Funnell, 87.5 percent Thoroughbred, registered as an Irish Sport Horse (Edmund Burke—Rineen Classic, Bassompierre)
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?d=supreme+rock&x=31&y=19
• Ringwood Cockatoo—ridden by Bettina Hoy, at least 75 percent Thoroughbred, registered as an Irish Sport Horse (Peacock xx—Bailey’s Folley)
• FRH Butts Abraxxas—ridden by Ingrid Klimke, 96.87 percent Thoroughbred, registered as Hanoverian (Heraldik xx—Kira-Annabell, Kronenkranich xx)
• La Biosthetique Sam FBW—ridden by Michael Jung, 75 percent Thoroughbred, registered as Baden Württemberg (Stan The Man xx—Halla, Heraldik xx)
• Parklane Hawk—ridden by William Fox-Pitt, 100 percent Thoroughbred, bred in New Zealand (Grosvenor—DeeBee Lady, Brilliant Invader)
• FRH Butts Avedon—ridden by Andreas Dibowski, 97 percent Thoroughbred, registered as Hanoverian (Heraldik xx—Karina-Andora, Kronenkranich xx)
(Parklane Hawk, winner at Burghley this year, has yet to achieve 80 percent in the dressage. FRH Butts Avedon, winner at the Boekelo CCI*** (the Netherlands) this year, has yet to do a four-star cross-country, but I have included them as two of the most outstanding young horses with the same exceptional ability in all phases.)
The obvious top sire here is Heraldik, but even he doesn’t receive a top or good rating in the German stallion rating system, which shows how event stallions are neglected on the continent.
If there is any logical sense in these thoughts, it raises a final question. Is the specialization in horse breeding, with the intense focus on producing elite dressage and show jumpers, taking sport horse breeding down a road that is not beneficial to either eventing or horse sports and riding as a whole? If the answer is yes, then there is every justification for a strategy in all national breeding programs that redresses the balance to the benefit of us all.
This is a really interesting topic, I think, and one that has been discussed and analysed here a few times. This is a good thread: http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?283712-Four-Star-Event-Horse-Breeding
With regard to the final question asked in the article, ie whether the specialisation in horse breeding is beneficial to either eventing or horse sports and riding as a whole, my personal (and not all that well researched) opinion is…I don’t know! 
I am in the Southern Hemisphere, compete FEI level eventing, and breed one or two horses a year. I find bloodlines and sport horse breeding fascinating. I think breeding an upper level eventer is an even bigger gamble with more variables than breeding a dressage horse or jumper. I have seen so many fancy 1* horses that just sort of disappear after that. Some go unsound. Some develop a dislike for skinnies or water or whatever. Some don’t suit their riders - no matter how good that rider is - and may fade into obscurity, get sold on as a lower level horse, change disciplines… but may have gone all the way with a different rider. Then you have the horses that are somewhat under the radar, then hit 2* and look good, then by 3* they are very fancy, and before you know it they are 4*!
We don’t seem to have the trends in eventing breeding, to the degree that there are trends in dressage and show jumping breeding. Yes there are the Heraldiks and the Jumbos and others, but as Young Event Horse classes are (fortunately!) not such a big deal in eventing as they seem to be in dressage and show jumping, most of our preferred eventing sires only rise to prominence once they are dead or close to it.
I think even if breeding specifically for eventing becomes more popular, we will still see the freaks and the randoms at the 4* level. It is so rare to see a grand prix dressage horse or jumper these days and not recognise both its sire and damsire. I can’t imagine a 4* line up being like this. Not taking anything at all away from the elite dressage and jumping horses, but I really do think that the reason that we will continue to see “different” breeds and breeding at the top level is that those horses who go all the way to 4* are often freak personalities as much as they are freak athletes, they have to have that tenacity and boldness to get over some really scarey jumps, and that tenacity will come from a range of breeds and types. I also think that eventing as a sport attracts tenacious people who will make do with what they’ve got to work with, who will chip away with that OTTB because that’s all they can afford, and we will continue to see these people rise to the top of our sport with the randomly bred horses that they often bring along, and I think this is fantastic and no longer so possible in dressage, or show jumping. I do hope we continue to see a range of body types in eventing horses as breeding inevitably becomes more specialised. I like looking at a 4* class and seeing chunky, Irish hunter types, modern wamblood types, classic thoroughbreds, and the occasional pony cross!
In Australia we are seeing a lot of full warmbloods (I saw that term loosely, as I am sure that there is TB %age in their “warmblood” parents’ bloodlines), competing at FEI level eventing and sometimes at 4*. Of course there are still the high %age TBs there, and the OTTBs, but over the last decade bloodlines used specifically for dressage and jumping have created some horses that have ended up eventers. We have some 2* and 3* horses by Regardez Moi (Rubinstein) and Jive Magic (Jazz) in Australia, which is kinda surprising. Will they go 4*? Will they get the chance to try? I don’t know.
I personally prefer at least 50% TB and will not breed anything less than this, I am also not intending to ride 4* but want to breed the best horse I possibly can. The best horse for me, as an amateur rider, has a good temperament first and foremost, but even that is not possible to 100% guarantee! I am looking forward to weaning my nearly 6 month old filly in the next few months, she has an excellent eventing pedigree and so far the temperament seems good, however her dam (by Brilliant Invader and out of a niece from the dam line of gold medal winners Kibah Tic Toc and Kibah Sandstone) did not have a ridden career due to an injury as a young horse, so there is a bit of unknown there. My filly’s sire show jumped to Grand Prix and is by Heraldik and out of a For Pleasure/Grundstein mare, and I chose him due to temperament, type and of course the Heraldik line. She is over 75% TB. Could she be a 4* horse of the future? Maybe. But I have seen so many well bred horses turn out to be not much at all.
It will be interesting to see which stallions and bloodlines dominate the next few decades of upper level event horse pedigrees. Will it be 4* eventing stallions like Leprince des Bois that leave their mark as sires? Or left field horses bred for show jumping or dressage? Or from the racing industry? I think one sad effect of the influence of specialised breeding is that we are probably less likely to see excellent thoroughbreds that were first and foremost racehorse stallions, have an influence on eventing breeding. Hopefully I am wrong!
It will also be interesting to see how many event breeding operations emerge and survive. Not many professional riders over here go out looking for purpose bred event horses from studs. That said, it is becoming a richer sport. We have lots of rich juniors coming through. If they stay in the sport, what will they look for in an eventing prospect in 10 years’ time? It’s possible that breeding eventers is an emerging market, but it’s not one I’d invest in. 
Thank you for your very nice, well thought out response Somanyhorses.
I have read a lot about Quarter horses and a lot about warmblood horses. With both there used to be a time when people were breeding all-round horses and not specialised horses. When people were breeding the all-round horse often quite a bit of TB blood used to be infused. The moment people started to breed specialised horses, people stopped using TB blood (except in case of Quarter horse race horses maybe). So people see TB as a threat to specialisation because it tends to water down the top performance traits for the particular type of event the specialised breeding was aimed at. However, the people that still are breeding for all-round horses within Quarter horse breeding and warmblood breeding still succeed best with TB infusions.
In the article it is being said that these all-round horses can often also be very good at one particular type of performance.
I once brought my appendix Quarter horse gelding to a western riding trainer and this rider really liked my horse’s ability to do reining. So that made me wonder if TB might still add something, even nowadays, to today’s reining horse breeding.
Elles, you will probably also really enjoy this article, which you may have already read. http://www.horsemagazine.com/thm/2013/10/world-young-eventing-horse-championships-2013/ In typical Chris Hector style it is very detailed. I think it shows there is great diversity of bloodlines in young eventing horses in this current era, and I enjoyed the “where are they now” at the end of the article, concerning previous winners.
It’s interesting that you mentioned Quarter Horses, my partner breeds quarter horses and his family have done so for many generations. Family get togethers generally involve some fairly robust discussions around horse breeding, and whether the horses today are better than those of years gone by! My partner’s grandfather brought over 30 horses to Australia from America in the 1960s in one shipment, and those horses were incredibly versatile. It’s a really interesting story, you can read it here if you like http://www.aqha.com.au/horse/hall_of_fame/resources/GregLougher.pdf . On his trip to Australia he ended up in the UK for awhile and even took the horses foxhunting! Apparently he trained all of his quarter horses to jump. My partner’s family reminisce a lot about the days when you used the same horse to do cutting, reined cow horse, reining, campdrafting, halter, pleasure, you name it. Now it is so, so specialised and the variation in the type of horse used for each of those disciplines is extreme. A cutting horse would never be taken in a halter class - and those halter horses look physically incapable of doing any sport at all, with their straight back legs. We don’t really see any cross over between the reiners and the cutters. A lot of cutting horses never leave the arena, and have never experienced a hard day of mustering! Each of the western disciplines has become very specialised, very quickly, because the focus is on futurities and so at 3 years old they are seeing which stallions are producing winners, and those bloodlines then prevail, whereas in eventing it takes a lot longer to see which stallions will produce 4* horses. My partner and his brother are still breeding his family’s old lines, albeit infused with modern lines, and we are starting to see a few other breeders look at reintroducing old lines too. I think my partner’s family would all say that specialisation in their breed (quarter horses) has not led to an improvement of that breed overall, maybe it has led to horses being bred that are capable of getting a higher score in a cutting show, but not a better horse to ride and enjoy.
Back on the eventing topic, I think if you considered the field at any 3 or 4* event in this country, those horses would on average be more capable of competing at a high level in dressage and show jumping, than a 3*/4* field would have 20 years ago. But whether this can be attributed to specialised breeding I don’t know. There have certainly been some amazing horses that have competed at an elite level in more than one discipline and I hope we see more of these superstar horses emerge. GV Bullwinkle comes to mind, he was a 3* eventer who became a dressage horse, scored over 70% in Grand Prix and was our travelling reserve for London 2012. Amazing animal!
Somanyhorses that is a very nice bit of history. In Holland people used to breed all-round sporthorses first but then specialisation was introduced. It is still hard to tell if it was a good decision or a bad decision, in any case a lot of dressage breeders appreciate a bit of jumping blood.
At least in eventing there is much more variation in the types of horses, that is a nice thing I think. I am glad that there is a type of competition left that asks for an all-round horse. And luckily not all depends on the eye of the jury, like in the dressage. I am very curious what the future will bring with regard to eventing breeding.
I’ll be interested to see if the Irish are able to keep their top ranking for event horses, given that they seem have pretty much given up breeding according to their former standard recipe.
The Germans are doing well at the moment breeding and producing good horses.
http://www.hippomundo.nl/horses/pedigree/line/68263
http://www.hippomundo.nl/horses/pedigree/line/58892
One of the best TB’s, bred in Australia:
http://www.hippomundo.nl/horses/pedigree/line/23633
heraldik’s success as an event sire is driven by only one percent of his progeny
interesting topic, interesting discussion.
but how much of all of this are facts and how much is driven by emotion and idealism when it comes to event horse breeding?
the article is nice, but it doesn’t hold true.
while i share the idealism of eventing and practicise eventing with all of my horses at least at basic levles at young age (no matter how they are bred - most of them are of pure dressage bred), as a sport horse breeder i do disagree with most of the assumptions in the article http://www.chronofhorse.com/article/why-we-need-breed-event-horses for various reasons:
- event horses are not bred, they are made.
- top star event horses do require tb influence - that doesn’t mean that tb influence as such always makes for a good event horse, neither does it exclude or neglect the positive genetic influence of other breeds and genetics to a top star event horse (pure tb’s excluded).
- the positive allocation of genetic influence to top star event horses is hard, if not impossible, to define and source, as each and every succesful sport horse is made up by the sum of all of its genetic parts. today, these often include different genetics, too.
- the characteristics assigend to event horses in the article are of
a) ancient origin (postulated first at a time when sport horse breeding was in its very beginning) and
b) not exclusive to event horses at all.
“There are very few people breeding specialist event horses, and yet breeding more event-type horses would undoubtedly benefit the sport horse world in general. This benefit includes temperament and willingness, soundness and longevity, flexibility and adaptability, size and type, and rider education. Many specialist dressage and jumping horses find it difficult to play another role in life, whereas an event horse will usually have another job to do, often at a high level.”
if any, these characteristics are supposed to describe tb influence in general (as public assumption does) but today i’ld consider even that assumption rather an idealistic attitude than a fact.
assigning a.m. characteristics soley to tb influence might have been the truth fifty to hundred years ago, when tb influence was desperately needed and made use of in order to turn draft and work horses to sport horses.
today, however, any well bred sport horse/wb should meet a.m. requirements as well. as these requirements today are included in all sport horse breeds:
temperament and willingness, soundness and longevity, flexibility and adaptability, size and type, and rider education.
i am in breeding for 15 years now and while my eldest broodmare is just turning 17 this year i would claim and assing all of the a.m. features to her and her progeny, too. if i had valid reason not to do so, i would apply the wrong mare, wrong marebase, wrong stallions and s.th. would be seriously wrong in my sport horse breeding program, no matter what disicpline any of my future foals/young sport horses eventually succeed in: dressage, jumping or eventing.
i want them to be of good temperament and willingness, soundness and longevity, flexibility and adaptability, size and type.
no less, no more.
at the same time, i claim no less but the same features to all of the progeny i have bred o/o my t.b. mare, regardless if her offspring will ever succeed in jumping, dressage or eventing.
again, it is a young breeding program and time will tell if her half tb progenys meet those demands. if they dont, the tb influence obviously didn’t help, either.
at the same time i would assume that all of you sport horse breeders in this forum claim the same for your breeding programs when making current breeding decisions, but only very few of you actually focus on breeding eventers?
my point is:
just because certain statements are repeated again and again for decades and years, and over time have developed to become “common sense”, that doesn’t mean they still hold true for a specific breed, genpool or discipline.
today, they have become selfunderstood to any sport horse breed.
modern sport horse breeding in europe has developed a breeding culture of almost a century of age. with it come one hundred years of more or less tb influence and production of eventers at the same time.
some were more, some were less successful, all of them had their share of tb influence. but the entire population of event horses globally and over time (decades, that is) descends from a vast variety of genetic tb background. they did so, and they will.
reason for that is simple:
other than specialised jumping and dressage horse breeding, which is a sole domain of european sport horse breeders, eventers have successfully been produced all over the world and still are.
produced.
not bred.
the difference between production and breeding is twofold:
a) riders influence - as it always takes a good rider to produce a better then average horse, no matter what breed and dsicipline.
b) stud book and organization.
developing a culture of sport horse registries is a european domaine. many countries producing successful eventers apply tb horses, at the same time lacking stud books and breed organisation. often you cannot track down pedigrees or sport records of ancestors because they are not registered, neither organized. the US being a perfect example, i guess?
yet, these horses make for good eventers.
in order to identify a real “eventing stallion” you need breed and track records to compare indiviual production to others.
the hardest task of all when it comes to eventing.
since genetic variety of event horses was and still is so wide spread, it is hard to nail a single stallion down to being “the” event horse producer.
this topic suggests heraldik being the no.one eventing producer because he has produced three top star horses everybody knows.
but is he really a top star eventer producer?
i doubt it.
he is a tb stallion who was applied in wb breeding with postive and negative influences, just like any other tb stallion.
heraldik’s production does take large profit from one single breeder, late mr. butt, who made use of the stallion many times and had a perfect rider and trainer in andreas dibowski, who basically took over all of the suitable young horses mr. butt had bred to introduce to sport.
out of these, andreas managed a few to become top star eventers, avedon and leon, which created demand amongst other top star event riders in germany (IKlimke), assuming heraldik’s offspring in general would qualify for top star eventing. this is how abraxxas and tabasco came to her barn (but she did try others, too, who didn’t seem suitable. even tabasco has meanwhile been sold.)
at the same time andreas developed a lot of other horses to top star eventers, too, just that their breeding was not so much heard of as most tb stallions are lesser known and breed a lot less.
this is the key:
in order to really prove genetic quality of a stallion you need breedings and lots of them.
class descends from mass and heraldik was one of the very lucky tb stallions to enjoy noteworthy numbers of breeding, mainly amongst jumper breeders. reason is simple:
tb stallions of jumper quality are rare and hard to find. heraldik was bred in tscheslowakia, never raced, but comepeted in sport internationally up to nations cup for his homeland. reason he was acquired by the brikhof stud, down south, when he was available.
note:
heraldik’s most succesful kids were produced up north - by certain mr. butt.
this tells you a lot about “allocation of different influences” to make for a top star eventer stallion:
breeder, marebase, rider&trainer.
there are 960 (!) kids registered by heraldik with the german FN yearbook.
how does that compare to other tb stallions?
out of 960 kids a handful of internationally successful ones can be selfunderstood by a n y stallion, no matter if tb or wb, no matter if eventing, dressage or jumping.
in order to really identify and “allocate” favourable genetic influence of any stallion, specially for eventing, you have to be fair and run comparisons to others.
these comparisons are hard to find for the simple reason, that there is no other tb stallion of such breeding numbers to compare heraldik to.
does that make heraldik a super event stallion or does that owe his breeding success to the sheer number of foals he produced because he was a succesful jumper himself?
self performance vs breed performance?
you tell me.
how many of the other stallions named in elles’ list above show evenly wide spread breeding numbers to allow for comparisons at all?
how many of these stallions are one-hit wonders because they never produced more than a single top star eventer everybody has heard of?
how many of these stallions have produced more than a handful of top star eventers and out of how many total numbers of breedings do these top star eventers arise from?
studbook records, breed organizations, sport records…
if you can’t track it down, the conversation is meaningless and driven by idealism and emotions only.
studbook and sport records.
out of 960 heraldik kids registered in sports 189 come from eventing.
20 percent.
is that good or bad?
how can you tell if there is nothing to compare to?
there aren’t any tb stallions of noteworthy breeding numbers for the simple fact, that tb stallions due to a lack of sport carreer, do not breed much in wb breeding.
however…
who is the currently most prominent eventer you can think of?
the one and only horse having dominated the world rankings and championships of the last years?
sam.
michael jung.
sam has been dominating the headlines for the last years winning every championship a horse can win.
a real example of longevity, that much is true.
one would assume, event horse breeders would have followed his breeding?
sam is by stan the man, a tb stallion of little to no recognition up until sam.
stan the man shows 101 kids registered in sports.
out of these, 50 (!) are successful in eventing - a 50-percent quota and a 2 1/2 higher quota than heraldik.
this sure is an exceptional quota and even with only onehundred registered kids on the ground, it still is a number big enough to allow for comparison.
how come stan the man doesn’t show up as t h e desired eventer breeding stallion in the world?
if numbers don’t lie, he sure deserves it over heraldik.
you tell me.
what i am saying is:
the entire discussion of event horse breeding is an emotional discussion that can hardly be backed by numbers, breeding wise.
for the simple reason that it takes far too many influences to make up for a succesful event horse.
in fact, genetics are the minor of all influences, i’ld say.
as tb genetics as such are widely eligible in eventing, but hard to be specified on an indivdual basis. far more eligible than any other genetic in specialized sport horse breeding, jumping and dressage that is.
the success of heraldik as an event sire is mainly driven by andreas dibowski and the desire, his first few kids raised amongst german professionals, when they became succesful with andreas.
and of course: they were available - number wise.
heraldik’s 960 kids make up for a ttl of winning money of 1,2 mio euros.
half (!) of these moneys are made by the ten most succesful kids of which 3 are ridden by andreas dibowski (avedon, leon and hans dampf), two by ingrid klimke (abraxxas and tabasco) and one by michael jung (halunke).
meaning:
heraldik’s success as an event sire is driven by only one percent of his registered kids.
that tells you a lot about rider’s influence in eventing numbers.
if you look at winning moneys of specialised jumper or dressage sires, you will find the contribution much further distributed.
of course rider’s influence is still big, but given that dressage and jumping genetics are easier to identify and breed for, in general their success is wider spread.
eventers are produced and made by managment in the first place.
they are not bred.
sam himself is the most perfect example.
I must say that I have often thought that a big part in making or breaking a horse is in the hands of the rider and not so much depending on the breeding of the horse. But how big that part is, I find hard to say.
Both Master Imp and Cavalier Royale had great success as Eventing sires, their successful offspring were spread out across many different riders from different countries with different riding styles.
I would disagree with the contention that eventers are more down to production than breeding. Eventing breeding just lags a decade or three behind showjumping and Dressage breeding.
There was a time, several decades ago, when GP and Olympic Showjumpers and Dressage horses were “produced” as much as bred. Just look at all the OTTBs that jumped at the GP level, or grade bred Irish “Hunters” etc, and even in Dressage you had horses like Wily Trout and Keen that were competitive at the highest levels in Dressage, and even that Akal Teke that won Olympic gold. Those days are long gone in both Showjumping and Dressage, as breeding has been fine tuned to such an degree, that only the finest bred horses will rise to the top now.
I believe the same will happen in Eventing, already is happening. There will come a time in a decade or two where only the best bred horses will be filling the 10-20 places at Badminton and the days of the backyard horse of unknown breeding or OTTB being competitive will be a thing of the past.
I believe that the event horse brain and the way any horse moves over the ground is determined by breeding, not production. Sure production helps, just as it does in dressage and show jumping; but if a horse isn’t brave and thoughtful and if it pounds the ground, it will not have XC ability. Stamina is also required at the top. A course that is two and 3/4 miles with 42 jumping efforts takes something very different from a 90 second show jumping round. Yes, you can train for stamina, but you cannot overcome innate limitations.
If the best bred horses are going to dominate in a decade or so, they will be bred to be able to be competitive in all the phases. They will, in fact, be all rounders at a very high level.
But I find it surprising that Mr. Micklem says that (some of) the best eventing horses could also be a very good “dressage only” horse or “show jumping only” horse.
I think often there (partially) is a self fulfilling prophecy at work. When people expect a lot from a particular horse/mare(line)/sire(line) it tends to be given more chances with more money being spent on it, a better rider, etc.
Somanyhorses, this was one of those last, rare, all-round QH’s:
http://horsesonly.com/finder/qh/l/lucks-easyfanta-boy.htm
Nowadays, like you say, with those extremes within the different performance categories it is almost impossible to compete for AQHA Supreme Champion. Those halter horses are the extreme of the extreme.
I found this article very pertinent to this discussion:
http://www.hanoverian.org/ahs_media/downloads/HV_issues/The_Hanoverian_10_2014.pdf
[QUOTE=Elles;8035623]
Somanyhorses, this was one of those last, rare, all-round QH’s:
http://horsesonly.com/finder/qh/l/lucks-easyfanta-boy.htm
Nowadays, like you say, with those extremes within the different performance categories it is almost impossible to compete for AQHA Supreme Champion. Those halter horses are the extreme of the extreme.[/QUOTE]
Maybe I misunderstood what you wrote, but AQHA supreme champions must win points in racing and performance (including “working” performance such as roping etc) as well as halter. A few still do it, but not many–I think there are fewer than 60 supreme champions since the AQHA started the program in the 60s.
There are probably more quarter horses out there that could be more supreme champions, but I think most owners/trainers don’t want to put all the effort/time/money into doing it–it’s just easier to specialize.
[QUOTE=RanchoAdobe;8035635]
I found this article very pertinent to this discussion:
http://www.hanoverian.org/ahs_media/downloads/HV_issues/The_Hanoverian_10_2014.pdf[/QUOTE]
I suppose ambition is the same thing as bravery.
Fannie Mae, Stan The Man, long before Sam, was notable as the sire of Shear L’Eau and Shear H20, both Olympic eventing horses. Shear L’Eau won at Athens in 2004, and Shear H20 was at Sydney in 2000.
Dirk Shrade had a BW mare by him, Sindy 43, who was 5th at Luhmuhlen 4* in 2006.
I think it is safe to say that Stan The Man was not made by Sam.
But can 4 star eventing horses be bred like 1.60 m. showjumpers are being bred at the moment?
Well, the problem is that we have no idea what eventing will be like in 10 or more years. You have to know what essential traits you are breeding for, and we just don’t know today what will be essential in eventing in 2025. They could abolish the CCI; they could remove the dressage coefficient; they could raise or lower jump heights in sj and xc; they could raise or lower the dressage difficulty; they could shorten XC courses still more in CCIs, if they continue to exist. They could require that sj or XC be last in all events. Any of these changes would affect essential traits.
Precisely. He sired a lot of good eventers in Ireland before being sold to Germany.
[QUOTE=vineyridge;8035924]
I suppose ambition is the same thing as bravery.
Fannie Mae, Stan The Man, long before Sam, was notable as the sire of Shear L’Eau and Shear H20, both Olympic eventing horses. Shear L’Eau won at Athens in 2004, and Shear H20 was at Sydney in 2000.
Dirk Shrade had a BW mare by him, Sindy 43, who was 5th at Luhmuhlen 4* in 2006.
I think it is safe to say that Stan The Man was not made by Sam.[/QUOTE]
