Is this Condrieu the right one? Marius’ TB sire?
Janet, I’ve seen the stallion books earlier: no 5- to 7-generation pedigree on anyone, no dam lines 5- to 7- generation to review, and no geldings to review, so my comments remain the same.
I wrote they don’t indicate XX. They do indicate (TB) after their registration number in the ISH Stallion book. The classic way, as the Germans do, is to put XX immediately after the name so it is part of the name. Not list it somewhere after the ISH registry ID number. In later generations “(TB)” can simply not be printed. If you notice also the TB “lost” it’s original birth registry number, it’s recorded by the ISH number only.
Just really curious how much TB blood is in the top 7 horses listed. Since Drummie brought up lack of pure TB sires, that’s an obvious qustion. I don’t really care how another registry keeps its books… although it must be almost impossible to track genetic issues.
I was just spending my morning looking up all the pedigrees - then I get on here and someone has done it all for me already!
One thing to note about the TB blood in the German horses - it is by and large not random off-the track TBs but from proven sport horses of good conformation.
So in my new quest for my fantasy Irish Sport Horse, that would be the first criteria - from a family proven as a jumper or eventer.
In Ireland, I am sure there are plenty of Irish Draught mares to go around. Here, the bottom is more likely to be a TB mare, as it is cheaper to import stallions.
McKinlaigh is imported from Ireland. Connaught/Simon is also, and according to this article,
http://www.munster-express.ie/front-page-news/general-stories/clare-bred-connaught/
one third of the horses at Rolex were Irish bred.
[QUOTE=huntrpaint;3437089]
I thought they took out R/ts and steeplechase a few years ago in hopes of making cross-country safer (i.e. not using an exhausted horse at the beginning of the cross country)
Seems like that idea has backfired as far as safety is concerned. I remember reading some of the big name eventers believed it would backfire, that the long version would actually be safer then the newer shorter version.[/QUOTE]
I think it was that and also actually I’ve always believed in the German conspiracy theory. :lol: 
I really do think the sport was a perfect mix back in the mid-90’s.
SM, anyone who has followed ISH breeding knows the traditonal formula for succesful eventer is a horse that is 3/4s to 7/8s TB with the rest RID. In other words one of the many TB stallions in Ireland was put to a 1/2 or 3/4 bred mare. With the advent of ISH stallions in their own right and the use of continental stallions, like Cavalier Royale, the percentages coming from either side are a little different but the end result is probably similar in that you’ll get a horse with 75% TB blood.
To say that TBs are not acknowledged in ISH is complete and utter lunacy. The ISH was built on the back of a readily available supply of TB stallions, esp NH stallions (Ireland has been and still is the premier producer of jump racing TBs, the kind of TB blood you would want in an eventer. No other country in the world has used TB sires to the same extent in sporthorse (Olympic discipline) breeding. Ireland has a long and proud history of producing top class TBs, both for the flat and jump racing, a history that goes back over 250 years. So TBs are quite loved and coveted in Ireland and there are lots of them, as I said before the country is flooded with them, probably as many or more than there are ISHs.
However it was realised eons ago that the most potent mix for a sport was to temper the blood of a full TB with some RID. That formula has been proven time and time again to be a winning formula, specifically in eventing (less so in recent decades in SJing). What you are seeing more recently is a move away from the F1 cross to a sporthorse to sporthorse cross, hence the decline in TB sires being used (though TB sires still account for over 25% of all ISHs born every year). Ireland has always been proud of the fact that their sporthorses had more blood than their continental counterparts.
Given the success of the use of ISH sires (i.e just look at the results of any CCI****), it’s hard to argue with that approach.
I’m really not sure what point you are trying to make. Having read your posts in the past you do see to have an agenda when it comes to TBs in sport and seem to make it your life’s work to discredit non-TBs in sport. A good horse is a good horse, give credit where it’s due. No need to spin to try to make facts fit your agenda.
They never are. 
They’re not always proven for sport though. Ladykiller, Bay Ronald, Dark Ronald, and Cottage Son never showed in the ring.
The “xx” is a continental affection, it’s a WB thing. In Ireland and GB they simply put a “TB” after the name.
It’s rare to find a TB listed as an ISH, they are invaribly registered with Weatherbys in the GSB or sometimes in the W-NTR (usually with a “VI” after their name).
Drummie:
– so are you saying the top 7 ISH on your list are atleast 75% TB? As opposed to the top two german horses at 90+% TB? We’re still not getting an answer on the amount of TB blood in the specific 7 sires. You, after all, brought it up in the first place when you mentioned no full TB sires.
– I never said, “TBs are not acknowledged in ISH.”
– I think the ISH have some great horses, and congrats. I’m amazed the OTTBs are able to be competitive due to the extensive WB breeding programs and the change in competition formats. And the fact their birth registries have no desire at all to be competitive here.
I will always fight for the straight-up TBs, and don’t understand your point on no 100% TB sire in the first generation of your 7 horses. I think the resulting 7 ISH horses being atleast 75+ percent TB speaks for itself.
It was an observation, nothing more nothing less, a fact that I found interesting. It shows a difference in approach in the breeding of ISHs, a drift away from the use of TB sires to the use of sporthorse sires, both ISH and continental bred, with a phenomenal success rate in the eventing arena. That cross is overall the dominant type of horse in eventing, so someone is doing something right.
As a student of horse breeding I like to keep an eye on what works and what doesn’t. I have no breed bias, to me a good horse is one that wins and a good breed of horse is one that produces consistent winners.
Over 80% of the horses I have owned and ridden in my lifetime have been TBs. My favourite sport is horse racing (probably 90% of my posts on COTH have been in the Racing forum). So I have a special affinity for TBs. However if I was going for the Olympics in the morning it’s not the breed of horse I would focus my search on, I would be searching out ISHs for eventing and WBs for dressage and showjumping. But at the end of the day I would go with whatever horse got the job done.
I am only very interested fan and trying to learn. This might be of value. Here is the french trainer’s idea for using “blood” and temprament in team rotation:
Explanations of national l’entraîneur, Thierry Touzaint: “Didier Dhennin and Ismène du Temple will leave in n°1 in dressage tomorrow morning (to 09h48 local hour). It will do a little fresher. This will be better for the mare for I fear than the heat does not put it poorly to l’aise.” (They will be also the first French couple to s’élancer on the cross-country running).
"Nicolas Touzaint and Galan of Sauvagère will present themselves on dressage tomorrow evening (to 21h23 local hour) because resumed qu’une in night can be in favor of Galan. Besides, c’est a horse imperturbable, an important trump notably if l’organisation decides to leave gigantic screen lit in the dressage edge.
Will present themselves Sunday on dressage (2nd party), Eric Vigeanel and Coronado Prior (to 07h55 local hour) because qu’Eric ‘wakes’? well.
John Renaud Adde and Haston d’Elpégère will be the last French (to 9h48 local hour), it will be the same on the cross-country running. Haston d’Elpégère is a horse that has blood, therefore it will hold the shock s’il came to do hot."
The blood the trainer refers to here is Pur Sang. Original french horse, I think. Arabian??
Coronado Prior at 18 yrs was in the indiv sj (rider Vigeanel). Listed as Anglo-Arab
“Pur Sang” (pure blood) is TB.
“Pur Sang” means Thoroughbred.
The French eventing horses are often AA or AAC (where the Arab % is below 25%, i.e more than 3/4s TB, a true AA can’t have less than 25% of either Arab or TB blood), or they are SF with lots of AA and TB blood.
TB’s all decended from same few Arabians?
On the male line - if you expand the meaning of “Arabian” to inlcude “Turk” and “Barb”… But the female line was non-Arabian.
Sorry, bad manners, I think you should say when you are leaving a discussion. I forget the < > expression. Had to go see Oxygen’s edited edition of sj.
Back to Pur Sang.
It is my understanding that the french are very proud of this blood. Horses/ponys from the Pyrennies (location means likely Arabian blood from Spain). ‘Pur Sang’ to the french breeder seems to mean that particular Blood, not TB, but that of the Pyreenies horses/pnys.
Now that I can think and am not getting ready to run of. I know that to be a TB a horse must have a blood line tracing to Eclipse or “the other Barb” (thanks Janet, senior moments come at the oddest times, maybe he was called ‘The Barb’) imported to England in the 19th c.
“Anglo” in french terms I believe is TB. Thusly and Anglo/Arab like the 18 yr old Coronado Prior is TB and Arab (what degree of Arab I do not know) or exactly what it means.
You all know this but i will say it anyway. In October, in France each year is the Le Lion 3-day event to determine best of the breed for 6 and 7 year olds. I noticed last time that they are identiflying SF diffferently.
Not well myself at the time, I am a poor reporter of the defintions. And besides, Nicolas Touzaint, my true love, was mounted on a horse called Barlevento he bought in Spain.
And I had discovered Tim Tebow, the University of Florida quarterback. and so found another true love.
Senior citizens can have as many ‘true loves’ as they wish. It is a rule.
I found this info on anglo arabians competing
France and Ireland have sent 2 Anglos each to represent their countries in Eventing. France’s two are AAC’s (less than 25% but more than 12.5% Arabian blood) Haston d’ Elpégère (13.79%), and Coronado Prior (24.92%). Ireland’s Anglos are Hobby Du Mee (59.71%) and Hyanie D’Aubrie (39.47%). All were bred in France.
CHICO, representing China, LAND HEIR and ESCUIDIERO representing Brazil, and PANDORA riding for Switzerland are all Anglos.
The British Equestrian Team has announced that William Fox-Pitt will be representing Britain at the Olympics in Beijing on Mary Guinness’ Anglo-Arabian Tamarillo.This will be the pair’s second Olympic competition, having won Team Silver in Athens in 2004.
the sire of Irish Jester
http://www.equinesportsbreeding.com.au/horses.php?action=view&id=5
Try www.equinesportsbreeding.com.au then check the stallions
enjoytheride and columbus: thanks for your replies.
Questions: enjoytheride: is the other part of what you are calling anglos, TB? As in “anglos” [read TB] + Arabian.
columbus: my computer would not let me open the file you suggested. All I got was pops.
Now I am signing off for the night. Thanks for the discussion.
[QUOTE=grayarabpony;3436965]
It doesn’t take THAT much more land to have road and tracks and steeplechase.[/QUOTE]
I don’t know where you live but where I am lots of land is being gobbled up by developers - so YES it can take that much more land - why do you think they are running the 3 day in Hong Kong on a GOLF COURSE ? LA Olympics - GOLF COURSE. Of course now what with the building boom being somewhat at a halt maybe that will stop the farmers from selling off their land for millions so they can host a **** event w/ the long format I’m also not seeing any information in here about any country’s “breeding” program. I’m putting that conspiracy theory there w/ OJ’s excuse - drug dealers did it.
This is from the USEA website - 2007
Why The Change?
The demise of the long-format with steeplechase was due to a number of reasons and largely to do with costs and the availability of land and volunteers. As our wide open spaces are giving way to urban development there are fewer and fewer venues that can provide the space necessary for such a land hungry sport. The costs involved are high and organizers are hard-pressed to make the three-day event break even, let alone be profitable. The Olympic Games has to attract entries from a number of countries and the lesser-known eventing nations were finding it increasingly hard to qualify and prepare their riders as they had no long-format courses available to them. With the immense expense of traveling to the U.S., Britain and other top eventing countries to qualify and the lack of suitable competitions at home they were unable to field teams. This meant that the number of nations participating was decreasing. It was also believed that the shorter format would be friendlier to the horses who would be able to compete more often thus giving their owners more opportunities to enjoy watching them compete. In addition, many suggested that the shorter format would be more attractive to television viewers and would garner more sponsorship and advertising.
The International Olympic Committee stated that if eventing could not find a way to solve these issues then the sport may be dropped from the Olympic program. Jack le Goff, former coach and chef d’equipe to the US, was developing the FEI Eventing World Cup Competition at the time and believed that the format to be used for this competition could be adapted to meet the demands of the IOC. The World Equestrian Games in 2002 was the last international team event (CCIO) to use the long format. The Athens Olympic Games in 2004 was scheduled to be a long-format competition with steeplechase but was granted permission to use the short format. The speed with which the short format took hold amazed everyone. Four of the world’s four-star competitions – Badminton, Burghley, Adelaide and Luhumuhlen all turned to the short format without steeplechase, though Janie Atkinson and Equestrian Events, Inc., battled against this trend our own Lexington, Kentucky four-star went short format in 2006.
