Eventing discussion

[stoicfish]

http://www.chronofhorse.com/article/sport-search-its-soul Coth article.

Do we want to create a sport where only the rarest of the rare can excel-fabulous movers with a tolerant attitude toward dressage, who are careful, scopey jumpers, and who are brave and sound for cross-country?

I find this to be a thought provoking statement. It becomes a chicken and egg discussion. I think one of the reasons that this type of horse is hard to find is that next to no one breeds for it. We breed jumpers, dressage horses and racetracks breed eventers, (well their by-products are eventers). And the horse breeding usually follows the sport, you don’t usually create the sport based on exsisting talents. Now the second interesting part of this, is this horse possible to breed or is it a freak of nature? Some have suggested that what makes it possible for them to do dressage makes them dangerous on the cross country course and vice versa.
I understand the sentiment behind Denny’s ideas and it is a bit sad that things are changing, but that is how things move forward. I don’t think that the cross country should be dumbed down to the point where it becomes a dumping grounds for Wb’s that didn’t make the cut in their perspective sport.
I think it is possible to breed such a horse. I am not sure that it will be an easy thing to do as we have specialist now. Traks are the best example out there of all around horses. The long format is best suited to Tbs and they already have those in spades. But if they are tolerent of the changes in the increase in the dressage and jumping skills as well as a formidable cross country aspect, that would be a cool sport and a very amazing athlete of a horse. I think it would be mainly Tb with Wb added, much like Wb’s are mainly Wb with added Tb that brought to the table the things we needed to improve. But then you are purpose breeding for a horse instead of getting a by-product of another sport. This will increase the price somewhat but maybe not as much as you think. How many cheap Tb’s do you go through to get that “one”?
But I do agree with him that the sport should be more uniform as right now it is very inconsistent and that is a moving target for riders and breeders.

Love to hear from people trying to breed this horse now.

[mareslave]

who’s payin’?

my breeding decisions are heavily influenced by others’ successes and we now have tools to determine how much TB blood we’ll see in a hypothetical foal. However, I think eventing “breeding” is heavily influenced by buyers’ wallets - people pay more for a jumper or a dressage horse - so eventing “breeding” is a default position for alot of us, unless of course, I’m breeding for myself and only sell if the foal is not what I want to ride (for example, heightwise).

[EquusMagnificus]

mareslave has a good point. I have an eventing-type mare and her foals are similar, but who is going to buy them?

When breeding for eventing, you are in direct competition with OTTBs at a dime a dozen…

There is “some” breeding for eventing, but I don’t think it can seriously take off because it is even more of a loosing venture than the others.

[Wits_End_Eventing]

I think one of the reasons that this type of horse is hard to find is that next to no one breeds for it. We breed jumpers, dressage horses and racetracks breed eventers, (well their by-products are eventers).

We think this statement hits the nail on the head, at least here in the US. We have done a lot of analysis of horses who have competed at the CCI**** level since the format changed in 2006, and the horses are definitely changing and changing differently in Europe than in the US.

A lot of discussion has taken place about the lack of a market for purpose bred eventers in the US, and, as we see it, this is the chicken and egg problem. In terms of price, the purpose bred event horse is at a disadvantage compared with the OTTB. And yes, it is absolutely true that there are still great OTTB’s out there for bargain basement prices so how does the breeder justify the higher price point of a purpose bred event horse to a prospective buyer? In addition, the jumper and dressage markets already buy purpose bred horses and are willing to pay top dollar for them so it is no surprise that many US breeders breed primarily for dressage and jumpers and many eventers buy off the track.

Now the second interesting part of this, is this horse possible to breed or is it a freak of nature?

We absolutely believe it is possible to breed top level event horses with careful research. The modern event horse, we strongly believe, must be bred to event, not bred as a general purpose sport horse, at least for the highest level of the sport. You see a lot of horses who do well through the levels until they hit the CCI*** or CCI**** competitions and then they just don’t have the soundness and/or the stamina for it. Breeding a horse with the movement and jump of the best warmblood breeds combined with the heart and stamina of the thoroughbred is the holy grail of event horse breeding. We think it is definitely possible to breed this type of horse…now whether or not a breeder can make a business of it is a whole different issues. Check back in a few years…

[dianehalpin]

Mareslave and EquusMagnificus are exactly right! Eventers can make a silk purse out of a sow’s ear and know what to look for in more inexpensive youngsters. I know that Germany, etc. breed for eventing but there just is not enough price on eventing youngsters in the U.S… I do the FEH classes with my youngsters from time to time and evented for over 20 years…on a TB-type APHA gelding that even John Williams loved to ride and took pretty high up in the eventing world. (Two-time USCTA Horse of the Year). I paid 6K for this hearthorse at 4 years old. Enough said.

[HyperionStudLLC]

We are primarily jumper breeding. However, out of production we have produced for many levels in jumping and eventing now. Is there a magic formula? Maybe?

When you look at the broad spectrum of the sport of horses in Olympic disciplines, you see so many variations. Eventing is one discipline in particular where the tides seem to be dramatically changing. Question is, do you add more TB blood or more WB blood? That I cannot answer.

It’s possible that the next eventing great comes out of obscurity… The freak or diamond in the rough. However, every horse bred,regardless of the breeders intention, could be the next great.

It’s a tide turning over that I think a good breeder considers when evaluating their foals each year.

Good thread OP… Hope to see more discussion.

Cheers

[Graymaresrule]

Opinions about the Goresbridge Go for Gold auction?

[omare]

I wonder with the shift in the demands of top eventers–are possible top eventers with all the necessary attributes presently participating in other sports … which pay better prices for their horses?

[stoicfish]

I have been out of the sport for quite awhile (and had a $600 horse) so maybe someone can explain this to me. I know you can go get a cheaper TB that can probably event. But top horses in any sport are rare, so how many horses do you go through till you get the one that is competative at the UL? And if you went to buy a proven horse like Teddy…how much would you pay? See what I am getting at. Purpose bred horse would give you a higher hit rate and save time. Not sure the cost would be way more in the overall picture, just at one time.
They were selling young horses in Germany for under 6 or 7K. Those were some nice horses. You can buy a decent foal here for 5 or 6K, not great but a nice horse. So if we can breed Wb’s for those prices, a mainly Tb base should be cheaper. Not in all areas but some places are cheaper and usually they are large pasture and in groups and low maintainace.

[dianehalpin]

Mary Hazzard, Bruce Davidson, Denny Emerson, Mr. Dean in Canada, and other dedicated eventers/breeders have been producing the purpose-bred eventer for years. Years. To say their products have done well and built modern eventing bloodlines is a huge understatement. Heraldik and Herr Butts in Germany - ditto. At the 4* level, the horses are worth up over a million U.S. and it’s been that way for some time. Just like the riders, though, few make it that far. If you want to know the most interesting modern blood to breed to, learn what the above-named folk are doing. I know Mr. Emerson really likes the Ferme Beaulieu horses just now and has several of their young horses in training.

[stoicfish]

[QUOTE=dianehalpin;6614450]
Mary Hazzard, Bruce Davidson, Denny Emerson, Mr. Dean in Canada, and other dedicated eventers/breeders have been producing the purpose-bred eventer for years. Years. To say their products have done well and built modern eventing bloodlines is a huge understatement. Heraldik and Herr Butts in Germany - ditto. At the 4* level, the horses are worth up over a million U.S. and it’s been that way for some time. Just like the riders, though, few make it that far. If you want to know the most interesting modern blood to breed to, learn what the above-named folk are doing. I know Mr. Emerson really likes the Ferme Beaulieu horses just now and has several of their young horses in training.[/QUOTE]

It was Denny’s article. And he had questions where are we going to get this type of horse from.
(I know about the Ferme stallions as they as in Canada and are approved with Canadian Warmblood)

[columbus]

OTT vs purpose bred

Ultimately…it is a numbers game. How many of the OTT horses does it take to get the accomplishments of one purpose bred like R-Star(assume for the argument that R-Star WAS bred for eventing…her sister definately is being marketed for eventing). I see a LOT of TBs that can’t make mid level. Admittedly if the selector has the eye and a reputation with the trainers so they get first look and then is very good with TBs you can do very well with OTT. One in five successes? less? Then you have to sell or find homes for the TBs that don’t work out. In my mind you can’t forget that many horses who get to the top are flat out challenges and couldn’t be sold so the trainer kept them and that became the Upper level horse. Then the same questions can be asked…how many TBs did you go through to get the one TB you can move up with.

For someone who MUST make a living to get to compete as a professional are you shooting yourself in the foot to have a business plan to try to sell your cheap OTT horses…even the best of them…as opposed to buying young purpose bred horses who might have some other purposes they can deflect to if they are not your upper level mount…dressage…pony club eventing. PatO

[andyvee]

I think this can be done, and should be pursued more. I have begun eventing myself, and am also a part time breeder. And with the exception of one or 2 horses most of my horses have sold on as eventers. They didn’t sell dirt cheap either. I do think that eventers are starting to pay more for good mounts, but it’s going to take time and many different factors for it to become a normal occurance. Can they compare to the hunter/jumper dressage market?? No not even close yet but a good all around horse will draw some decent coin from an UL event rider and I have proof of that.

With the short format the way it is now, TB blood isn’t needed for the stamina like it used to, and there is enough TB blood in the modern warmblood to warrant them as a great successful competitor for the UL. I do think as more dressage blood and UL jumping blood start coming through into the show ring the demand to improve upon competition stock is going to rise and in turn so will the value of a eventing prospect. This is already starting to happen. It also becomes much more paramount once you get past the prelim level.

I also agree that your going to have to go through many a more TB’s before you find the one that you can move up through the levels with, and columbus makes a super points…

I do think we are going to need more breeders who are breeding specifically for eventing, and like any good breeding if you breed for the top you will always have a sellable horse in one way or another. Eventer riders especially UL will have no choice (if they want to succeed and be competitive) to start forking up the $ to get their next top mount, it’s just a matter of time.

[dianehalpin]

I don’t think UL eventing riders will ever “need” to fork up the $ to get their next top mount because they are able to make them. They may need to pay more for purpose-bred youngsters to bring along, or their owners will, but syndication is done all the time in acquiring, then competing, UL eventing horses.

[RacetrackReject]

[QUOTE=andyvee;6615258]
I do think we are going to need more breeders who are breeding specifically for eventing, and like any good breeding if you breed for the top you will always have a sellable horse in one way or another. Eventer riders especially UL will have no choice (if they want to succeed and be competitive) to start forking up the $ to get their next top mount, it’s just a matter of time.[/QUOTE]

Just a few random thoughts.

I think something else that needs to be pointed out is that Eventing, unlike Jumpers, does not have big money, or even any money, as prizes for winning at the majority of events. This means if riders want big money horses, they need big money owners who are fine with never really having a return on investment unless they buy something young and cheap and sell it off when the pro makes it big time with the horse. Even then, there isn’t a ton of profit to be made after you’ve had this horse in training all that time and paid for all of those competitions, winning only ribbons and saddle pads in exchange.

In eventing, it also seems that the same few riders end up with horses from the same few owners. If you’re a Boyd, a Phillip, a Karen, then that works great for you, but what if you’re a Kim, a Colleen, a Doug, a Leslie?

Unarguably, Kim is one of the best event riders in this country and girl can get it done in dressage, but she has no big horse. She’s bought prospects in the last year, but one went on to do dressage solely, and I think the other was sold. I believe she has a new crop of prospects now, to start all over again with.

The OTTB thing is interesting because while most OTTBs won’t be world class eventers, neither will most event riders. There is a place for both those horses and those riders in eventing and I don’t think that will ever change.

What brings most people to eventing is the fact that they can take whatever they have in their backyard, knock the mud off, get some training, and go to an event. If they ride well, they will do well, and no one will give a crap about what kind of horse they have. There will always be a place in the sport for this person, and there will always be a place for the person that wants to buy a made 4 star horse to go Novice and for the person that has 4 star talent and the money to purchase those top horses. The place that is being lost in Eventing is the place for the insanely talented riders without big money owners or money of their own. It almost makes one wish the LeGeoff days were back.

[Babble]

You see a lot of horses who do well through the levels until they hit the CCI*** or CCI**** competitions and then they just don’t have the soundness and/or the stamina for it.

I think there is another issue here, and it relates to this statement. I think that eventing will always be set apart from jumpers and dressage because it is MUCH harder to predict which horses will be successful at the very upper levels, because they need that “look of eagles” as Jimmy Wofford calls it. Even top eventers (I’m thinking Leslie Law and that Mystere du Val horse, for example) can find great horses that are successful as Advanced Horse Trials and CCI*** horses, but can’t quite cut it at the CCI**** level. And you don’t know that until they get there. I think it it MUCH easier to judge the potential of a young jumper or a young dressage horse to make it to the top. And for this reason, eventers will ALWAYS be at a disadvantage when it comes to purpose breeding and $$.

[stoicfish]

[QUOTE=Babble;6615763]
I think there is another issue here, and it relates to this statement. I think that eventing will always be set apart from jumpers and dressage because it is MUCH harder to predict which horses will be successful at the very upper levels, because they need that “look of eagles” as Jimmy Wofford calls it. Even top eventers (I’m thinking Leslie Law and that Mystere du Val horse, for example) can find great horses that are successful as Advanced Horse Trials and CCI*** horses, but can’t quite cut it at the CCI**** level. And you don’t know that until they get there. I think it it MUCH easier to judge the potential of a young jumper or a young dressage horse to make it to the top. And for this reason, eventers will ALWAYS be at a disadvantage when it comes to purpose breeding and $$.[/QUOTE]

True if they don’t shorten up the format too much (more). Otherwise the stamina will not be worth as much and then those other traits that are easier to see in young horses, jumping and dressage will be used to pick your next horse.
But honestly if they shorten it up and make the X-country too easy, it will just be a second rate dressage and jumping show.

[Babble]

True if they don’t shorten up the format too much (more). Otherwise the stamina will not be worth as much and those other traits that are easier to see in young horses, jumping and dressage.
But honestly if they shorten it up it and make the X-country too easy, it will just be a second rate dressage and jumping show.

Good point. I think as of right now, CCI**** still requires enough bravery and stamina that not all good moving/jumping horses will cut it. Let’s hope it stays that way

[vineyridge]

The Mary Hazzards and Denny Emersons and maybe BD must sell foals and semen to people who don’t make to the top because I haven’t found any of theirs at the top levels of sport since short format came in. BD did breed Jam and a horse that he bred is doing the 3* at Fair Hill this weekend.

Fact is that UL event horses are either OTTBs or they are imported with very few exceptions.

[omare]

I may be incorrect but it seems that the pool of horses that can jump 1.6m classes is much bigger than the pool of horses that can comptete at a 4 *.

Is that because money makes developing 1.6m horses more worthwhile or is it because 4 * eventing requires a super specialized (and rare) skill set?