Eventing Dressage vs. other types of Dressage... How different are they really?

[halt]

@Jealoushe

Disagree. The good eventers and dressage coaches teach the same principles.

Same with bad dressage and eventers.

Eventers do not automatically teach a certain style. If you are seeing that, it is because there is an abundance of people who think they are trainers when they have no business being one.

i’m not saying they teach different principles. i’m saying the culture is different.

a real dressage horse is so far removed from what a real event horse is that the two might as well be different species. they have completely different temperaments, conformation, learning ability - and that’s before you factor in how different their job descriptions are. surely you’d be able to recognize that?

and that is part of what makes the culture different. you apply different methods of training for each. the premise is the same, but the execution is not.

IOW… they don’t supp from the same pool… but it’s both water.

[Jealoushe]

@halt

i’m not saying they teach different principles. i’m saying the culture is different.

a real dressage horse is so far removed from what a real event horse is that the two might as well be different species. they have completely different temperaments, conformation, learning ability - and that’s before you factor in how different their job descriptions are. surely you’d be able to recognize that?

and that is part of what makes the culture different. you apply different methods of training for each. the premise is the same, but the execution is not.

IOW… they don’t supp from the same pool… but it’s both water.

No sorry I still do not agree. Unless a real dressage horse to you is only one at the GP level?

Most serious event riders have pure dressage coaches. Most serious event riders can go to a dressage show and win.

I must be missing something in this culture you speak of.

There are plenty of TBs who may be built to run kicking butt in dressage. Eventing nowadays is filled with big fancy WBs.

All horses have different temperaments, confirmation, and learning ability. I didn’t realize that was discipline specific.

I have three horses all which vary greatly in those three things yet are all Tbs.

A good coach can train the horse in front of them regardless of the above. I have never in my life heard that all dressage or event horses require the same approach. With my horses for example, they all require a different method.

There is no culture other than what you carry in the mind.

[halt]

@Jealoushe

No sorry I still do not agree. Unless a real dressage horse to you is only one at the GP level?

Most serious event riders have pure dressage coaches. Most serious event riders can go to a dressage show and win.

I must be missing something in this culture you speak of.

There are plenty of TBs who may be built to run kicking butt in dressage. Eventing nowadays is filled with big fancy WBs.

All horses have different temperaments, confirmation, and learning ability. I didn’t realize that was discipline specific.

I have three horses all which vary greatly in those three things yet are all Tbs.

A good coach can train the horse in front of them regardless of the above. I have never in my life heard that all dressage or event horses require the same approach. With my horses for example, they all require a different method.

There is no culture other than what you carry in the mind.

can you point out where i said “all horses in a discipline require the same approach” as you put it?

thanks.

i think you are missing something, but i don’t think anything else i type will elucidate it for you, not without it being twisted into something i definitely didn’t type.

the point is, they’re completely different, almost warring disciplines (eventing vs dressage). as such, have different cultures. there really isn’t any way someone who has been in the sport can contest that. and that has nothing to do with “good vs bad” training.

[enjoytheride]

Eventers and Dressage people are at WAR? Perhaps you should elucidate that for us.

What exactly do you think that eventers do with their horses that makes them so culturally remote from dressage people?

I’m still struggling with how event horses are a different species from dressage horses. Like do event horses breathe fire?

…Note I’m an eventer and I understood what “elucidate” meant. You can’t throw us off track with your big fancy DQ words.

[halt]

@enjoytheride

Eventers and Dressage people are at WAR? Perhaps you should elucidate that for us.

What exactly do you think that eventers do with their horses that makes them so culturally remote from dressage people?

I’m still struggling with how event horses are a different species from dressage horses. Like do event horses breathe fire?

…Note I’m an eventer and I understood what “elucidate” meant. You can’t throw us off track with your big fancy DQ words.

:rolleyes:

so you think that the two other jobs an eventer has (SJ & XC) are not conflicting to dressage? because that’s what i meant by warring disciplines - XC and SJ require very different muscles, skillset, athletic ability than straight dressage.

your comment is funny to me because i’m an eventer at heart… as YA i was a WS for multiple eventing BNTs… so i’m well acquainted, thank you, with eventers – and i don’t know what “big words” i used that are ~fancy dressage queen~ words. (BTW, i always hoped i’d have the prestigious honor to be called a DQ one day but this is not how i envisioned it - thanks for the first!)

it does seem like you would rather childishly nitpick over having a mature intelligent discussion. that’s your prerogative.

my experience has been that the two worlds are very different, and the culture is too. having dipped my toe in both ponds and having been lucky to have quality instructors from both, it is just my perspective of my own personal experience. yours has been different, apparently. that’s that. as adults we can agree to disagree without the name-flinging or insulting.

[Jealoushe]

@halt

can you point out where i said “all horses in a discipline require the same approach” as you put it?

thanks.

i think you are missing something, but i don’t think anything else i type will elucidate it for you, not without it being twisted into something i definitely didn’t type.

the point is, they’re completely different, almost warring disciplines (eventing vs dressage). as such, have different cultures. there really isn’t any way someone who has been in the sport can contest that. and that has nothing to do with “good vs bad” training.

@halt

and that is part of what makes the culture different. you apply different methods of training for each. the premise is the same, but the execution is not.

BBM

Well that wasn’t what I said. I said “I have never in my life heard that all dressage or event horses require the same approach.”

But you said the above right there. That each discipline has a different training method which is %100 false.

They are not completely different.

Dressage is dressage

Eventing is Dressage, Cross Country, Showjumping.

The dressage part of each is the exact same. The tests may be different, but they are the exact same discipline.

Not sure what “BNTs” you worked for but my guess is, they were not skilled dressage coaches. Most Eventers are not. That is why many eventers turn to pure dressage coaches for help.

I am in the sport. I am in both sports. I will surely contest that Eventing dressage and dressage dressage are different. They aren’t. Dressage is dressage.

Like I said, the culture idea is in your own head.

[anon55755751]

I would take FischerRocana in a hot second if someone offered her to me as a dressage only mount. In fact, I would probably take any (sound) young horse produced by Jung or Klimke for either discipline (considering my eventing ambitions are low level and my dressage goals, while high level, are not particularly tied to needing world-beater gaits).

Klimke (not sure about Jung) has said, iirc, that her young horses all start the same way with dressage, jumping, and hacking out, and she doesn’t specialize until they’re far enough in training for their discipline-specific talents to start standing out.

Anyway, OP, if I understood the timeline correctly, the period with the classical person was when you were rehabbing and conditioning your horse’s back. Your description of the experience seems consistent with those goals to me. I assume there was some progression in the workload intensity and duration, if not technical work It’s impossible to say how similar that person’s methods for training a fit horse would be to what you’re experiencing now.

[RedHorses]

I would remind you that Rolkur is an extreme and not something that appeared from nowhere. It developed as a common training method/step/practice was progressively pushed further and further over time.

Your current situation appears to be using those techniques that eventually became Rolkur, and that similarity is what is disturbing you because you are uncertain where the line denoting “too far” is located.

Video of your rides, for your own viewing will help you see where you are.

[ladyj79]

@enjoytheride

Eventers and Dressage people are at WAR? Perhaps you should elucidate that for us.

I’m generally at war with anyone who uses the phrase “classical dressage.” I’m more akin to those who use the phrase “classikal dressage” :lol::lol::lol:

[LarkspurCO]

@halt

:rolleyes:

so you think that the two other jobs an eventer has (SJ & XC) are not conflicting to dressage? because that’s what i meant by warring disciplines - XC and SJ require very different muscles, skillset, athletic ability than straight dressage.

your comment is funny to me because i’m an eventer at heart… as YA i was a WS for multiple eventing BNTs… so i’m well acquainted, thank you, with eventers – and i don’t know what “big words” i used that are ~fancy dressage queen~ words. (BTW, i always hoped i’d have the prestigious honor to be called a DQ one day but this is not how i envisioned it - thanks for the first!)

it does seem like you would rather childishly nitpick over having a mature intelligent discussion. that’s your prerogative.

my experience has been that the two worlds are very different, and the culture is too. having dipped my toe in both ponds and having been lucky to have quality instructors from both, it is just my perspective of my own personal experience. yours has been different, apparently. that’s that. as adults we can agree to disagree without the name-flinging or insulting.

Why don’t you capitalize the first word in your sentences?

[McGurk]

My .02 -

I feel like I’ve stepped through a time warp and am back in the 70s or 80s, when “event dressage” WAS truly different than straight dressage, and the tests required even at the international level of eventing didn’t require a lot of collected work. Back then, dressage wasn’t as influential in the final score and it wasn’t uncommon for someone to move up 20 or more places after dressage and you saw some very unrelaxed, unsubmissive tests.

But both sports have changed. The long format went away, a horse that could gallop all day was no longer a priority, and the influence of dressage on the final placings increased. You needed a horse dressage quality gaits to be competitive, even at Novice and Training. Even when I last evented in the 90s, lower level smurfs worked with straight dressage coaches. Heck, the riding school I worked for brought in straight dressage coaches for kids doing low level unrecognized events on leased school horses!

I will concede that there is some cultural difference; some straight dressage riders never, ever ride outside the sandbox and never, ever ride their horse in company. Eventing still requires a bold, forward horse that loves to attack their fences. But that’s about the only difference I still see. Good training is good training is good training, and everyone wants a horses that’s relaxed, rhythmic, straight and obedient to the aids. The truly effective people I worked with were remarkably consistent in their approach.

In re-reading the OP, I think the question behind the question is “How do I evaluate the quality of the training when I’m new to the sport?” That’s a VERY good question, and one that deserves some thought.

Here’s my contribution:

Is your horse happy in its work? Does it like iits job?

Is your horse progressing both in fitness and in skill? In other words, are there things that the horse used to struggle with that are getting easier? Or is that sticky left canter depart still sticky?

Can the trainer articulate their training program and goals to you? Do you know what they want the horse to be capable of in a month, 6 months, a year? Do they have a clear roadmap for you and the horse together, and do you, as the person paying the bills, understand what it is?

Does the trainer use brute force or coercion? Or are they patient and creative about working through resistances? Do they have a sense of humor about the training process?

Are they prone to quick fixes and gadgets? I’m not one to say you should never, ever do ________, but I distrust a trainer whose always looking for shortcuts.

So, OP, if both trainers you’re discussing meet the criteria above, they were both good trainers, just with different approaches. And they both may have been the right person at the right time for you and your horse.

If one of the trainers under discussion doesn’t meet the criteria, well, there’s your answer.

What criteria would others suggest for evaluating a trainer?

[Scribbler]

These are very good criteria but I suspect for a newbie like OP there may not be the existing knowledge base to evaluate by eye and to ask questions and evalaute the answers.

OP is after all coming on here to ask us to advise her on exactly these questions because she knows she can’t trust her own judgement, having a history of falling for poor trainers or perhaps coming to distrust her trainers.

It would be great if OP could apply these criteria and decide on her own.

My only further suggestion would be to critically evaluate where this trainers more advanced horses and students have got to.

Ask to do a lesson on her advanced horse " to see what real dressage is meant to feel like." Then ponder if this is how you want your horse to go.

Ask to watch lessons of her more advanced students and listen to the instruction. Watch how their horse moves behind and their position and use of aids. Then ponder if this is ultimately how you want to ride.

If you still can’t decide go to some low level dressage shows and see how those riders compare to your coaches students.

If your coach has no students and no trained horse that perhaps says something as well.

[kcmel]

@Jealoushe

Most serious event riders have pure dressage coaches. Most serious event riders can go to a dressage show and win.

I must be missing something in this culture you speak of.

I only compete in dressage schooling shows, but I tend to score better at those than at horse trials. Not sure why. I was even high point amateur once doing a novice test! I couldn’t believe it; I thought it was a mistake.

I have a dressage trainer, but I also like taking dressage lesson with my event trainer. I always learn something new. My dressage trainer rides with M Barisone and my event trainer rides with JJ Tate, and they sometimes have different ways of correcting issues or teaching new things. I like having two different perspectives; it helps me learn.

[JenEM]

@ladyj79

I’m generally at war with anyone who uses the phrase “classical dressage.” I’m more akin to those who use the phrase “classikal dressage” :lol::lol::lol:

Yes, I tend to want to back away sloooowly when I hear someone start anything with that phrase. Warning bells and sirens and crazy ahead :lol::lol:

Firstly, OP, it sounds like you’ve had training that was all over the map, and none of it particularly good basics, if you weren’t even familiar with riding leg to hand. That’s a fundamental, whether you’re an Eventer or a Dressage rider or a Hunter. It’s a lot more “weight” in the hand as it were, in Dressage than it is in Hunters. I am mostly a hunter/eq person, and now train with a hunter/eq coach who brings in a dressage trainer for her and some of us students each month (horse and I have worked with both Eventing and Dressage trainers, at FEI level in each discipline, prior to our current life in hunter/eqland). It is great, and not really any different than the good flatwork a hunter/eq coach should be asking for. Not every coach is good, and not everyone teaches that, and it’s a great disservice.

I’m sure it does feel different if you’re used to toodling around on a loose rein. I’ve got a TB, as I believe you do, and she would be just thrilled with life to bop around with her nose poked out dragging herself around with her shoulders, and would go like that all day long. It’s not correct, it’s not good balance, and it’s ultimately not good for her, because it does nothing to keep her well-muscled and using herself in a way that leads to a long, healthy career as a riding horse. Everything you’re describing in actual quotes of what your Dressage trainer is asking for sounds like something my dressage trainer, or even my hunter/eq trainer would ask for–steady contact, push from behind, lift from the abs into the back, using your seat to control the horse. I hear “rounder!” a lot in my lessons with my dressage coach, not because she wants me to pull the head in (that is NOT what “rounder” is asking for!) as you seem to think, but because she wants me to ask the horse to step up under herself more, which makes a rounder back as she steps up and lifts it more. That’s building good muscle, which is what you want if you’ve got a horse with back issues.

Secondly, I’ve done both some lower-level eventing and some straight dressage. Most good eventing coaches are also perfectly competent lower-level dressage coaches. Heck, in this area, there are plenty of event horses that go to a straight dressage show one weekend and a rated jumper show the next, before heading to an event after that. Dressage isn’t some completely unrelated skillset that only gets used trotting around the sandbox. You’re using that dressage to balance for better inside turns in the jumper ring, and shift the horses weight back onto it’s hind end as you’re heading downhill to a fence. Any good eventing/hunter/equitation coach I have ever had in a span of more than 20 years has all said one thing: “It’s just flatwork with fences in between.”

[tbchick84]

I can only speak from a position of low level eventing. I’ve been to both eventing and straight dressage schooling shows. I have found the straight dressage riders appear to have their horses more put together. By that I mean, the connection is more consistent, the horse is more through even at the lowest levels, and the movements are more precise. A good number of the lower level eventers seem to just ride the movements just to get to the end of the test. With straight dressage, the training is the goal itself. With eventing, the dressage training is done to improve how well the horse responds to the rider and jumps on XC and stadium.

I have taken lessons from both dressage instructors and eventing instructors who teach dressage. I agree with what the OP mentioned, that the straight dressage instructors demand more contact and a heavier hand than what an eventing instructor looks for. I have stopped riding with straight dressage instructors since all seem to think my long necked TB can instantly walk along on heavy contact the second I am on his back. He’s always sore afterwards and it’s not fair to him. My eventing instructor is always checking for the open throat latch while still being connected. She just understands TB’s better and I know our dressage progress gets us jumping better.

I’d say, trust your gut. Dressage is training, which is a very general term. If your horse feels tight, agitated and the lessons are not getting you anywhere, it’s time to look elsewhere, regardless of their specialty.

[Juxtapoze]

halt - your post #29 is a great response to OP’s original question!

In reading this entire thread, I think we can all agree that just like every student and horse has holes and blind spots in our educations, so too do trainers. The longer you ride with a trainer, the more apparent these become. We are all works in progress.

[J-Lu]

@thecolorcoal

Hopefully this is an appropriate question to ask.

A long time ago I wrote about a trainer who rode my horse in rollkur. I sang her praises and thought she came from the heavens because she was able to get my horse’s “back up” as it were, and I will admit my mare looked DAMN GOOD with this trainer riding her, BUT then again isn’t that why rollkur exists? We all know it’s wrong, though (well most of us).

Anyway, that trainer advertised herself as a “competitive dressage” trainer, but she only trained students in eventing. She was an eventer herself, albeit low level. As I’ve mentioned in other threads this trainer has a very bad reputation but to her students she is a goddess.

Anyway, my mare and I have now joined forces with a newer trainer, a gal I knew a few years ago who has left her job as an instructor for a barn in pursuit of her goals doing individual training. She’s moving her two horses to the barn she’s picked out as her training facility at the end of February, of which i moved to in November in preparation to be her very first full-time client. This lady was a dressage rider turned eventer, but she doesn’t ride dressage in any way I’ve really seen.

I’ve had classical trainers before I had this woman. Her ideas and methods are more similar to the Eventing trainer, but she is not nearly as “abusive” or forceful. There is no rolkur, but there is “rounder” - we’ve never put my horse in as tight a frame as Trainer 1 but this trainer definitely seems a little more focused on head set than my classical GP trainers were.

There’s more contact. There’s more pushing with the seat. There’s more resisting a horse’s resistance until it gives. Things are just a lot more physical with this trainer, as with my classical trainer it was more about just the bottom of the training scale and getting my mare comfortable with being ridden again (long story short, bad saddle fit = severe atrophy and 8 month layup with no riding, just lunging). We’re officially training 1st level with this new trainer.

My horse’s natural connecting point is with her nose slightly in front of the vertical. That’s her sweet spot, but new trainer would prefer her to be a bit more on the vertical. When this happens, the contact gets a bit stronger and there is work to be done to lighten that connection from being heavy upon taking up a shorter rein. We do eventually get it, though.

I don’t know what dressage we are doing. Definitely not classical, as this trainer understands my goals are to compete, but in 2 months of training with her we are leaps and bounds further along than we were in my 6 months with my classical trainer, in which we only cantered after 5 months of lessons.

Flame suit zipped, I will say again my horse is fine, happy, and doing absolutely incredible, I just wanted to get insight into whether or not this is a style of eventing training and/or modern, or if this is honestly how dressage is? Whatever the answer, I’m looking for clarity, not right or wrong.

I will also say my horse is a hunter, we do dressage for me because it is my new obsession. Competition is the goal but getting her physically strong and comfortable is really what I am after.

To put things into perspective: I haven’t always had the best of trainers. I worked alone with my horse for a year before going back to training, and only recently started full training. I’m a pretty independent rider who doesn’t take what professionals say at face-value without a little personal research, so I’m not questioning/doubting my trainer, I just want to know what I am to expect in this new way of riding.

Dear OP, This and your subsequent post suggest that you don’t understand dressage training. It’s impossible to know what is going on without extensive and representative videos. I’m not sure if you know what rollkur is or why it has been used. I doubt you get the idea of “competitive dressage” or “classical dressage” by this post. You simply had some different dressage trainers who sold themselves as “dressage trainers” and “classical trainers”.

Your new “compact frame”, it’s hard to tell if this is good or forcing your horse into a frame. Yes, “leg into hand” is the concept of dressage training, but does not cause a “round neck” as much as it causes a “round back”, and I’m not sure if your understand the difference. The rhythm shouldn’t get quicker but it will on a horse and/or rider who don’t understand the concept/are WORKING on the concept. Yea, wiggling the bit will cause the horse to not lean on it. But for GODS sake, don’t ride with a German trainer! You will become totally confused! :lol: They will often have you work into contact and what you think is heaviness. There are many roads to Rome, just be sure you are working with a competent trainer.

Seriously, Forget about categorizing your dressage trainers. There are several trainers who would consider first level “pre-dressage”. Any horse can master leg yields and can carry themselves a bit can master first level. Just ride your horse and work on what works for the two of you under the guidance of a competent trainer. You can undoubtedly get feedback on the dressage trainers in your area by seeking it out. You can start with your local dressage and/or combined training club, doing your own homework, watching lessons/clinics, asking the advice of several quality dressage trainers in your area, even if they are out of your price range. Most will refer you to a decent trainer at your price level.

[CFFarm]

To me there is a difference between competitive and classical dressage…time. Flame suit zipped up.

“Training a horse is a rational gymnastics course”.

“The idea of ensuring sufficient preparation before any new demand is made on the horse, can be applied to the jumper, to the dressage horse, and in fact to all horses destined to be trained for whatever purpose.” Nuno Oliverira

[McGurk]

Scribbler, point taken. Some of my criteria DO require advanced knowledge.

But the OP clearly something ain’t right, and is trying to figure it out.

Novices can recognize brute force or a reliance of quick fixes or gadgets.

(Some of my early dressage training consisted of a succession of people with “tricks” or “fixes” to get my horse on the aids. What got my horse on the aids was learning to ride inside leg to outside rein, and give the inside, over time. No “trick.”)

Novices can ask for an explanation and evaluate whether or not it makes sense, or whether the trainer struggles to explain. Or whether they’re pissed off for even being asked.

[enjoytheride]

I don’t know if a novice can recognize brute force. I’ve seen beginner riders who think that anything more than loose floppy reins is a harsh rein. An old friend of mine felt it was “mean” to ride from leg to hand and felt that horses just found a frame on their own without being asked for it and quit showing because she never scored higher. A beginner in my barn right now got off his horse and lunged it when it went from a jog to a slighter slower than working trot trot during 20 degree weather because she was “taking off” with him.