Eventing Dressage vs. other types of Dressage... How different are they really?

[Windermere]

Since there have been a few comments aimed at competitive dressage, I’ve seen so-called “classical” trainers ruin their horses because they completely neglected connection and engagement over the back. This led to a lot of stiff, sore horses, and there were excuses all the time made about saddle fit or something else being the cause. When I was at that barn, I thought that being able to actually ride was just the time in between setbacks. One student has been at that barn for 10 years, bought/sold 5 different horses (including one that was supposed to be an FEI schoolmaster), and still hasn’t been able to earn her bronze.

OP: As others have said, don’t worry about labels right now. Stick with a program that has happy, healthy horses and riders who are moving up the levels and succeeding at their goals. If there is a barn full of horses with suspensory injuries, run. If the trainer has students of 5+ years who are still at 1st level with horses who should be capable of more, leave. If the trainer has excuses on why the judges just don’t understand and score her poorly, well, you know the answer.

There are many schools of thought when it comes to dressage (mostly arising from the different breeds/types of horses and their strengths/weaknesses), but they are all meant to reach the same goal, i.e. a supple, responsive horse capable of collection and self-carriage.

[Impractical_Horsewoman]

I ride at a dressage barn where there are two trainers. The main trainer is strictly dressage. The assistant trainer comes in to teach lower-level students like myself (although I’ve also taken lessons with the head trainer) and she’s an eventer who also rides “straight up” dressage. I don’t see any major differences in terms of the goals or advice. The main difference I’d say is that the eventer seems to be a bit more patient with mistakes on the horse’s part because she does tend to train a much wider variety of horses in dressage for eventing (in other words, eventers might choose a horse who is much stronger in the jumping phases and needs a bit more nursing through a test to mentally cope with it all). Not that she isn’t focused on what is correct but seems to tolerate a slightly longer or larger learning curve on the horse’s part.

I think the cultural differences and attitudes between the different sports aren’t all that significant if someone isn’t riding at a super-high level and while they’re interesting to learn about and think about, it’s not something I really focus on when I’m actually riding.

Although I’m not currently eventing myself, I’m a huge fan of the sport (obviously) and watch it all the time, volunteer at events. While I ride dressage, I still learn a tremendous amount watching eventing dressage tests and enjoy riding them myself in practice.

[Scribbler]

@McGurk

Scribbler, point taken. Some of my criteria DO require advanced knowledge.

But the OP clearly something ain’t right, and is trying to figure it out.

Novices can recognize brute force or a reliance of quick fixes or gadgets.

(Some of my early dressage training consisted of a succession of people with “tricks” or “fixes” to get my horse on the aids. What got my horse on the aids was learning to ride inside leg to outside rein, and give the inside, over time. No “trick.”)

Novices can ask for an explanation and evaluate whether or not it makes sense, or whether the trainer struggles to explain. Or whether they’re pissed off for even being asked.

I agree with you, in general.

But OP went from loving her rolkur teacher to loving her floppy rein teacher to realizing she is incapable of evaluating this current one which sounds like standard dressage ideas at an unknown level of competency.

I certainly see newbies making the same errors of judgement and having no frame of reference to start from.

Also it looks like we have lost OP. She hasn’t replied since the first day.

[merrygoround]

OP you’ve gotten a lot of different “takes”’. of your post. Here’s mine, and I’ve been around awhile, started out eventing moved to dressage. I found it a fascinating journey with initially a lot of detours. time wasting detours. Even among the top riders there are different approaches and teaching. I’m talking about those that score at the top.

And here is where I am, and what I teach. First and foremost the horse goes forward from the leg and seat. The half halts, and transitions come primarily from the leg and seat. When starting a youngster, the leg and seat are supported by an opening rein, which gradually subsides, as the horse turns and bends more from the seat and legs. By Training Level, I expect to be riding from the seat and leg, the reins support the flexion.I don’t care where the nose is, By First Level I expect to be riding the movements on a light contact, and no more. Again, I don’t worry about that nose, so long as it is in front of the horse. By Second Level, the movements encourage the horse to engage, S/I , H/I, should be able to be ridden on a giving inside rein. If not you aren’t riding the acclaimed inside leg to outside rein. Go back to 20 m circles til you can ride them without the inside rein. If you are riding on a giving or free inside rein, you’ll notice that your horse is coming up under you, his neck has rounded, and his nose has come in. A light , ever changing feel will support this. As you go up the levels and the degree of difficulty of the gymnastic movements increase, so too does the engagement.

It’s not new, it’s been around forever. It takes time, and work, and a lot of discussions with our own body until it becomes automatic.

So If you doubt the track you are on, look around, listen , and maybe change direction.

[thecolorcoal]

Thank you, everyone. I really appreciate your support! I agree with those who say I am probably overanalyzing. It is just a lot more “hand” than I am used to, but I may have originally been trained WRONG, in which case of course this would seem strange to me…

I am confused because the eventing trainer, and I’m only labeling her as such because she’s training her students in eventing and dressage is a part of eventing, focuses on muscling their horses through the test, as the students horses are rather hot understandably so.

The FEI trainer I used didn’t do this at all. Same with the french classical master I took several lessons from (LOVED him, but accent was so thick!!!) She wanted a soft connection and the first time I felt it i went “OMG!” I knew exactly what was happening. And it was so cool, the “oneness” we experienced.

Maybe my doubts come from this trainer not having competed in FEI (like old trainer) and focusing mostly on eventing dressage with a thoroughbred-type, which is also specifically why I like her since my horse is a thoroughbred. But there’s more pushing with the seat and more support in every which way, whereas both my old trainers were trying to get self-carriage off the getgo.

Videos to come I promise! Dressage is our dibble-dabble, this trainer is mostly for our hunter competitions (horse’s main sport) and we do what we can with dressage. There is an opportunity for my old FEI trainer to come to the barn to give a clinic though!

[Scribbler]

@thecolorcoal

Thank you, everyone. I really appreciate your support! I agree with those who say I am probably overanalyzing. It is just a lot more “hand” than I am used to, but I may have originally been trained WRONG, in which case of course this would seem strange to me…

I am confused because the eventing trainer, and I’m only labeling her as such because she’s training her students in eventing and dressage is a part of eventing, focuses on muscling their horses through the test, as the students horses are rather hot understandably so.

The FEI trainer I used didn’t do this at all. Same with the french classical master I took several lessons from (LOVED him, but accent was so thick!!!) She wanted a soft connection and the first time I felt it i went “OMG!” I knew exactly what was happening. And it was so cool, the “oneness” we experienced.

Maybe my doubts come from this trainer not having competed in FEI (like old trainer) and focusing mostly on eventing dressage with a thoroughbred-type, which is also specifically why I like her since my horse is a thoroughbred. But there’s more pushing with the seat and more support in every which way, whereas both my old trainers were trying to get self-carriage off the getgo.

Videos to come I promise! Dressage is our dibble-dabble, this trainer is mostly for our hunter competitions (horse’s main sport) and we do what we can with dressage. There is an opportunity for my old FEI trainer to come to the barn to give a clinic though!

Now I am totally confused. You are going with a dressage for eventing coach to train a show hunter? How is that meant to work?

And is the FEI trainer coming firvthr clinic the rolkur trainer that you fled in horror?

OP as with several of your other posts I cannot quite follow the twists and turns in what you are telling us.

Either there are way more forner trainers in the picture than you first said, or your opinions of them change daily so it sounds like you are talking about many more trainers than exist.

And what’s the goal? If you want to show hunters why aren’t you at a hunter barn with a hunter trainer?

Eventers and hunters are very different disciplines.

[halt]

@Juxtapoze

halt - your post #29 is a great response to OP’s original question!

In reading this entire thread, I think we can all agree that just like every student and horse has holes and blind spots in our educations, so too do trainers. The longer you ride with a trainer, the more apparent these become. We are all works in progress.

thanks. i was sorry to see the thread devolve over bickering on word choice.

another poster put it in good words too - that there are so many different schools of thought in dressage, but they are meant to reach the same goal.

[halt]

@Jealoushe

BBM

Well that wasn’t what I said. I said “I have never in my life heard that all dressage or event horses require the same approach.”

But you said the above right there. That each discipline has a different training method which is %100 false.

They are not completely different.

Dressage is dressage

Eventing is Dressage, Cross Country, Showjumping.

The dressage part of each is the exact same. The tests may be different, but they are the exact same discipline.

Not sure what “BNTs” you worked for but my guess is, they were not skilled dressage coaches. Most Eventers are not. That is why many eventers turn to pure dressage coaches for help.

I am in the sport. I am in both sports. I will surely contest that Eventing dressage and dressage dressage are different. They aren’t. Dressage is dressage.

Like I said, the culture idea is in your own head.

since you asked, Denny Emerson and Stephie Baer, to just name two. i’ve been pretty vocal about this in past threads. :rolleyes:

both are great at instilling a very good dressage basic, which i think you know. i’m still tickled on how my post was so wildly misinterpreted, but what can you do… it’s COTH. insinuating that my experiences are invalid seems par for the course for you.

the way you start an event horse and the way you start a dressage horse is usually pretty different. i’m not talking a pony clubber starting the horse - i’m talking a professional. and it diverges from there. yes, it is still “dressage” but the training is generally different. eventers don’t have the same time that dressage riders do. i cannot believe this is being contested.

i just have to ask, have you ever stepped foot in an upper level dressage barn? i mean, the culture starts there. they generally have completely different turn-out regimes, riding regimes, training regimes, completely different mindset on soundness and/or what constitutes as a quality horse and/or ride… that you would say that eventers and dressage riders have the same culture (or don’t have culture at all) makes me really think you haven’t spent much time in either world.

[edit]

someone else on this thread echoed my sentiments.

@Windermere

There are many schools of thought when it comes to dressage (mostly arising from the different breeds/types of horses and their strengths/weaknesses), but they are all meant to reach the same goal, i.e. a supple, responsive horse capable of collection and self-carriage.

[Manni01]

@halt

since you asked, Denny Emerson and Stephie Baer, to just name two. i’ve been pretty vocal about this in past threads. :rolleyes:

both are great at instilling a very good dressage basic, which i think you know. i’m still tickled on how my post was so wildly misinterpreted, but what can you do… it’s COTH. insinuating that my experiences are invalid seems par for the course for you.

the way you start an event horse and the way you start a dressage horse is usually pretty different. i’m not talking a pony clubber starting the horse - i’m talking a professional. and it diverges from there. yes, it is still “dressage” but the training is generally different. eventers don’t have the same time that dressage riders do. i cannot believe this is being contested.

i just have to ask, have you ever stepped foot in an upper level dressage barn? i mean, the culture starts there. they generally have completely different turn-out regimes, riding regimes, training regimes, completely different mindset on soundness and/or what constitutes as a quality horse and/or ride… that you would say that eventers and dressage riders have the same culture (or don’t have culture at all) makes me really think you haven’t spent much time in either world.

i also have to ask, is there a reason you are so condescending? you can’t have a polite conversation with anyone that disagrees with you. not just in this thread.

someone else on this thread echoed my sentiments.

I would agree with you that eventers and dressage people usually have a different approach how they keep and train horses. BUT just because they do doesn’t mean that it makes sense to have a different approach.
I am fairly sure that I.K and M.J keep their horses pretty similar, whether they do dressage, eventing or SJ. I cannot imagine that they keep horses different because of the discipline.
And obviously it works for them.
I remember that I.K rode Escada in Prix St. George classes in order to improve her dressage scores in eventing and I think she worked with another one of her eventing horses a lot in piaffe to make him stronger.
So there might be a different approach in some barns but there are also barns who have the same approach regardless of the discipline

[Jealoushe]

@halt

since you asked, Denny Emerson and Stephie Baer, to just name two. i’ve been pretty vocal about this in past threads. :rolleyes:

both are great at instilling a very good dressage basic, which i think you know. i’m still tickled on how my post was so wildly misinterpreted, but what can you do… it’s COTH. insinuating that my experiences are invalid seems par for the course for you.

the way you start an event horse and the way you start a dressage horse is usually pretty different. i’m not talking a pony clubber starting the horse - i’m talking a professional. and it diverges from there. yes, it is still “dressage” but the training is generally different. eventers don’t have the same time that dressage riders do. i cannot believe this is being contested.

i just have to ask, have you ever stepped foot in an upper level dressage barn? i mean, the culture starts there. they generally have completely different turn-out regimes, riding regimes, training regimes, completely different mindset on soundness and/or what constitutes as a quality horse and/or ride… that you would say that eventers and dressage riders have the same culture (or don’t have culture at all) makes me really think you haven’t spent much time in either world.

i also have to ask, is there a reason you are so condescending? you can’t have a polite conversation with anyone that disagrees with you. not just in this thread.

someone else on this thread echoed my sentiments.

BBM.

I am not familiar with your threads or comments. I don’t keep tabs on “who posts what”. Not sure why you need to “roll eyes” at that question.

No, there is no difference in the way you start an event horse vs dressage horse. I start my dressage horse the same way I start my event horse.

You say I am condescending yet you post referring to me as a “pony clubber” and then ask if I have ever stepped foot in an Upper Level Dressage barn, and include the eye rolling emoticon. If anyone is being condescending on this thread it is you. Except I am not bothered, because I am merely discussing how you are incorrect. BTW - being called a “Pony Clubber” is not an insult. A lot of “Pony Clubbers” are exceptional riders and trainers.

Not sure why my comments bother you so much. If people get offended because I say you are flat out wrong, then perhaps you just can’t handle someone criticizing your thought process.

I ride with a level 3 dressage coach who rides FEI. My first event horse came from an UL Dressage barn. My coach in the UK was an extremely high ranking dressage judge (think Olympics). I boarded at an FEI dressage barn in the past. My mom was 2nd Level Champion in the Province. I have spent enough time in both sports to know that dressage is dressage.

To say otherwise is just uneducated. Different cultures to the sports - maybe. But your reference was different cultures in training and like I said in my first post, if someone who is training is saying or demonstrating that Eventing dressage is different than pure dressage then they are %100 false.

@halt

thanks. i was sorry to see the thread devolve over bickering on word choice.

another poster put it in good words too - that there are so many different schools of thought in dressage, but they are meant to reach the same goal.

This has nothing to do with word choice.

[halt]

@Manni01

I would agree with you that eventers and dressage people usually have a different approach how they keep and train horses. BUT just because they do doesn’t mean that it makes sense to have a different approach.
I am fairly sure that I.K and M.J keep their horses pretty similar, whether they do dressage, eventing or SJ. I cannot imagine that they keep horses different because of the discipline.
And obviously it works for them.
I remember that I.K rode Escada in Prix St. George classes in order to improve her dressage scores in eventing and I think she worked with another one of her eventing horses a lot in piaffe to make him stronger.
So there might be a different approach in some barns but there are also barns who have the same approach regardless of the discipline

of course. :yes: i was not attempting to say all barns train the same way in specific disciplines, but that seems to be how my post was taken. i know i train a WB differently than i train a TB, (generally) - sometimes you need different approaches depending on the breed, its conformation, temperament, its physical limitations, the job it’s intended to do… but that seems to be something that goes without saying :lol:

i just know in my experience, that the WBs in the eventing shed-row were a very different type than the WBs in the UL dressage barn. and they needed different approaches.

i would love the opportunity to be a fly on the wall in MJ or IK’s barns.

[halt]

@Jealoushe

BBM.

I am not familiar with your threads or comments. I don’t keep tabs on “who posts what”. Not sure why you need to “roll eyes” at that question.

No, there is no difference in the way you start an event horse vs dressage horse. I start my dressage horse the same way I start my event horse.

You say I am condescending yet you post referring to me as a “pony clubber” and then ask if I have ever stepped foot in am Upper Level Dressage barn, and include the eye rolling emoticon. If anyone is being condescending on this thread it is you. Except I am not bothered, because I am merely discussing how you are incorrect. BTW - being called a “Pony Clubber” is not an insult. A lot of “Pony Clubbers” are exceptional riders and trainers.

Not sure why my comments bother you so much. If people get offended because I say you are flat out wrong, then perhaps you just can’t handle someone criticizing your thought process.

I ride with a level 3 dressage coach who rides FEI. My first event horse came from an UL Dressage barn. My coach in the UK was an extremely high ranking dressage judge (think Olympics). I boarded at an FEI dressage barn in the past. My mom was 2nd Level Champion in the Province. I have spent enough time in both sports to know that dressage is dressage.

To say otherwise is just uneducated. Different cultures to the sports - maybe. But your reference was different cultures in training and like I said in my first post, if someone who is training is saying or demonstrating that Eventing dressage is different than pure dressage then they are %100 false.

huh? i did not refer to you as a pony clubber…

i think you are reading way too much into things that aren’t there.

as far as the rest of your post… we’ve had correspondences back and forth in the eventing forum and one of them was about working student gigs. it’s easy for me to remember people i discuss things with.

sorry you can’t deal with someone having a different experience than you. that does not make them “flat out wrong”. eventing dressage and pure dressage do have different training approaches. i don’t know what to tell you.

that you think that all professional riders start event horses and dressage horses the same suggests that your experience in starting horses for different disciplines is very limited.

[Jealoushe]

@halt

sorry you can’t deal with someone having a different experience than you. that does not make them “flat out wrong”. eventing dressage and pure dressage do have different training approaches. i don’t know what to tell you.

that you think that all professional riders start event horses and dressage horses the same suggests that your experience in starting horses for different disciplines is very limited.

I’m dealing just fine. This forum is meant to educate, so there are plenty of opinions around people don’t agree with. I have to laugh at your attempt to know anything about my riding experience based on these comments. How many horses have you started? What have they gone on to do successfully? If you want to start throwing shade you better have something to back it up.

You clearly missed the point. I didn’t say they all do - I said uneducated or bad trainers/coaches do. A good trainer knows that dressage is dressage - no matter the end game. It is basically just good fundamentals in riding and training here.

Those with dressage education, train the same regardless of an event horse or dressage horse for dressage. Every horse is different, no matter the discipline, so they all take a unique approach, however the basic fundamentals are the same.

Since you are so adamant they are different, can you elaborate and tell me what I have been missing then? What differences in training are you seeing in eventing dressage and pure dressage.

Enlighten me.

[Samantha37]

@halt

the way you start an event horse and the way you start a dressage horse is usually pretty different. i’m not talking a pony clubber starting the horse - i’m talking a professional. and it diverges from there. yes, it is still “dressage” but the training is generally different. eventers don’t have the same time that dressage riders do. i cannot believe this is being contested.

i just have to ask, have you ever stepped foot in an upper level dressage barn? i mean, the culture starts there. they generally have completely different turn-out regimes, riding regimes, training regimes, completely different mindset on soundness and/or what constitutes as a quality horse and/or ride… that you would say that eventers and dressage riders have the same culture (or don’t have culture at all) makes me really think you haven’t spent much time in either world.

THIS!

I have been a working student for Advanced level eventers (who also do problem horses and starting babies) and also a GP dressage trainer. I have taken a lot of lessons with a four star eventer and also a three star eventer along with a few other UL/GP dressage trainers. The difference is huge. But that is totally OK! I’m not saying one is better than the other - they are just totally different and have different goals. The dressage trainers can take their time to make the dressage fantastic as it is their sole focus. Eventers also have to introduce jumping and cross country.

I’m not trying to bash eventers at all. I used to be a low level smurf and loved it. But I just disagree that eventing dressage is the same as straight dressage. Maybe in some cases where people ARE working with a good, qualified dressage instructor it is similar, but never the same. Straight dressage I want to be able to control the horse’s entire body and footfalls and in eventing they need that fifth leg to get you out of trouble so you can’t train them to be reliant on the rider as much. (Not saying leaning on the rider or making the rider support them, but they don’t have or need a fifth leg of instinct to get themselves out of trouble the way event horses have to).

I remember reading somewhere a long time ago - maybe from D. Emerson or J. Wofford, but it was something along the lines of most people (I.K and M.J are clearly in a class of their own) shouldn’t train their horses that high in dressage because it might take away that fifth leg. I think every event horse should have a solid dressage foundation, but that does not necessarily include 3rd level movements and up. And there is a LOT of straight dressage above that level. I know the 4* level is about the equivalent of 4th level straight dressage, but the majority of event horses are not competing at that level. Maybe the horse has a good flying change for jumping but there is little need for event horses to learn half pass until they are at the top levels of the sport. Whereas straight dressage introduces trot and canter half passes at 3rd level.

[Jealoushe]

@Samantha37

THIS!

I have been a working student for Advanced level eventers (who also do problem horses and starting babies) and also a GP dressage trainer. I have taken a lot of lessons with a four star eventer and also a three star eventer along with a few other UL/GP dressage trainers. The difference is huge.

What is the difference? There shouldn’t be. Simply being an Advanced level eventer does not equal good dressage trainer either. Being a working student doesn’t mean you achieve their level of understanding either simply by being present.

The whole point is they should not be different. Whether horses need to learn higher movements or not - if they did the training should be the same. If I want my Prelim event horse to learn half pass - she will learn half pass the same way my dressage horse does.

Majority of dresage horses aren’t showing past 2nd level either. This thought process is clearly a lack of understanding basic dressage fundamentals and how they apply across disciplines

I would love to hear what these differences are in training horses for eventing dressage and dressage dressage. It seems like a couple of you are changing your arguments to mean training that horse for Eventing VS dressage, and not eventing dressage VS dressage dressage.

There is absolutely 0 reason to train an event horse for dressage differently than you would a dressage horse. Anyone who says there is, is simply wrong.

Dressage is dressage.

[IPEsq]

Popping over from h/j land. I am of the school that all jumpers (even the show hunters) need to know some basic “dressage for jumping” as George Morris would say. This is how you create balance and self carriage so that you can get a pat of the ground in front of a jump and push from behind. You have to teach some leg to hand before you can refine and get the same carriage in a longer contact/frame and half seat. The horse needs to be able to sit to collect and lengthen without dumping on the forehand.

The previous trainer sounded like like they were doing things 100% correct for an unsound, rehabbing horse with behavior issues. The horse needed basic strengthening work in a long frame and without any feeling of confinement from the rider. The horse was probably not comfortable to canter without behavior problems. That she can do it now and has progressed in her muscling is IMO proof that the basic fitness and mental foundation was done correctly.

I think you you are currently focusing too much on where her head is. Not only is that incorrect for where you are in your dressage training, it is going to get both of you relying too much on the rein which is not what you want in a show hunter. Plus, it sounds like the previous trainer installed a lot of the basics, so I don’t see why you’d be taking a step backwards in teaching balance now. I don’t think this has anything to do with Eventing vs Dressage. But your trainer should keep in mind that you not only want to jump but you want a show hunter, whose frame is ultimately quite different. Of course this takes me back to your current trainer’s issue seems to be focusing too much on the frame anyway.

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

OP… I’ve muddled my way through to this thread and agree with much of what others brought up about leg to hand. I sympathize with how it can be tough to develop that, even at a low level, if you initially come from a hunter background. I made the journey from hunters and pony club, to low level eventing, to riding with a good dressage coach years ago… and am now a re-rider working on riding WELL, at a barn with both a great dressage and eventing coach. Both coaches CAN teach either discipline, but have their individual passions.

Both emphasize the horse needs to be in front of the leg, balanced, supple and adjustable. For anything. Dressage, jumping, cross country (although I haven’t ridden cross country in ages - other than logs on hacks. But we’re working on getting there).

I have a young horse who we have a balanced training program for with lots of variety (flatwork, jumping, and hacking out) and are taking our time with to develop in a healthy correct way. But that doesn’t mean waiting 6 months to canter. Even though I am a low level re-rider and the horse is green. We are working on engaging her hind end, developing adjustability within the gaits (mainly at the walk and trot right now), lots of transitions, and starting some shoulder fore, and leg yielding. Turn on the haunches. The goal is to get the horse supple, in front of the leg, adjustable and balanced. With canter, we are working more on good upward transitions so she steps into canter and doesn’t start on her forehand strung out. That means she must be properly engaged at the trot and slightly collected with impulsion to get a good canter depart. She’s a nice Warmblood with great gaits and it is not necessarily obvious that she isn’t always engaged, in front of the leg, or on her forehand at the canter - she doesn’t look like a western pleasure horse going around… But a solid foundation of “dressage” - “flatwork” - whatever you want to call it - is what we need at this stage. That means in front of the leg, a soft jaw (we’re not focusing on where she is relative to a frame or the vertical - she just can’t be obviously resistant with her nose out or clenched jaw, nor dropping way behind the vertical) supple and adjustable within gaits, lots of transitions, and trying to maintain a nice elastic consistent connection.

It sounds like you and your horse might be at a similar stage working on similar things. Maybe you’re way beyond that and I’m off. But it sounds as though you’re at a similar point.

Sometimes I think getting all into “dressage talk” makes this more complicated than it is. I try and not think about “levels.” I think about how my horse and I are going and what we need to work on. We could put together a very competitive training level test, and possibly first. The horse hasn’t turned 5 yet. But for now, the focus is to keep on working on bits and pieces and exercises to improve the total picture. My hands are not the best… I attribute that to an ingrained hunter background and not focusing on riding with an independent seat earlier in my education. So sometimes my contact can be too rigid and heavy when I am focusing super hard on maintaining a quiet hand, and am not riding from the seat adequately. This is a common problem for people coming from hunters. I have found lots and lots of transitions between and within walk and trot, and doing a lot more work at sitting trot have helped immensely. Good sitting trot, with a quiet hand and relaxed but active leg aids is hard work if your independent seat is lacking, and you are only riding three days a week, and your horse has BIG gaits. But working on achieving that pays dividends. Work, work work. Lots of sitting trot to working walk using the seat and leg to ask the horse to step into the DOWNWARD transition. I try and keep it all soft and quiet… But with the horse still engaged and in front of my leg.

If you focus on fundamentals and correct principles, I think it really does apply to all disciplines at the low levels. Maybe people competing at Grand Prix on a Warmblood can get into a big debate with someone who trains and rides Iberian horses using different methods about modern vs. classical. and maybe both of those people think an eventer competing a TB at Prelim or above and trying to put in a competitive dressage test is really going about it with several deficiencies in terms of their training methodology… But the basics are the basics, and I think they’re pretty universal. I personally have a TON more work to do on the basics before I need to think about different methods of upper level training.

If your coaches don’t seem to be able to help you achieve the basics… Move on. Don’t buy into a ton of chatter and talk of theory, and gadgets. The basics are the basics, and the foundation of everything. Leg to hand, a good connection, adjustable and supple. And if someone has you trotting around forever without much contact, and without your horse engaging their hind end, chatting about theory… Huh. Its going to take a lonnnggg time to make progress. Sounds a bit like a “classikal maestro” type. Especially if that same coach was the one with the accent. Is this the same person that was also an FEI rider? When? Where? Have you checked their scores? Watch out for the all “talk” but no “do” types… There are a lot of them out there.

[Samantha37]

@Jealoushe

What is the difference? There shouldn’t be. Simply being an Advanced level eventer does not equal good dressage trainer either. Being a working student doesn’t mean you achieve their level of understanding either simply by being present.

The whole point is they should not be different. Whether horses need to learn higher movements or not - if they did the training should be the same. If I want my Prelim event horse to learn half pass - she will learn half pass the same way my dressage horse does.

Majority of dresage horses aren’t showing past 2nd level either. This thought process is clearly a lack of understanding basic dressage fundamentals and how they apply across disciplines

I would love to hear what these differences are in training horses for eventing dressage and dressage dressage. It seems like a couple of you are changing your arguments to mean training that horse for Eventing VS dressage, and not eventing dressage VS dressage dressage.

There is absolutely 0 reason to train an event horse for dressage differently than you would a dressage horse. Anyone who says there is, is simply wrong.

Dressage is dressage.

Several of us have gone around and around with you on this and clearly we are not reaching a consensus of any kind.

My horse that I evented was always in the top 3 after dressage (BN and N) and on scores in the low 20s. This was without ANY sort of lateral suppleness, and my not having any clue that I was not right. I took the same horse at the same time in straight dressage competitions at Training level and was quite quickly humbled.

Now I hope we can agree that I was the issue here (not knowing that there was SO much I didn’t know!), but I was in a weekly lesson program and thought I was getting excellent advice because we were doing so well in LL eventing.

My training of that horse has been a lot of me learning and correcting things I had previously taught him (incorrectly). But from the first month I had him, he was going over small fences and baby grids and flat work. I call it flat work because it was NOT dressage as I know it to be now. He is a monster on trails/hacking so we didn’t do much of that. I had him out XC schooling within 2 months of my having him. I really trained all of it together- the jumps stayed low for a long time - we didn’t rush him.
He has really taken to straight dressage along with me and we are currently showing Third Level. He is starting the work towards canter pirouettes and once we have the changes more confirmed, I’m hoping we can put together a line of them and try 4th level.

The current horse I am buying (another OTTB), is going straight into a dressage program. He is very, very out of shape so the first month will consist of trail riding, lunging and the occasional training ride. His first month looks nothing like my event horse’s first month. My event horse had slightly more training than the new one, but not by much. Again - disclaimer that I am far more educated now than I was when I got my current horse.

Based on MY EXPERIENCE, I have found that eventing dressage is very different from straight dressage. Now there are cases like I.K., M.J. and K. Severson who have all competed successfully at the top levels of dressage, but that is not the norm. I’m sorry, it isn’t. Go to a horse trial and sit by the dressage ring and really watch and you will see the majority of riders are not riding true dressage. I can’t tell you how many eventers I know that hate dressage and can’t wait to get to the jumping portions. Dressage is something to suffer through.

I’m sorry that we cannot seem to convince each other to better see the other person’s POV.

[halt]

@Jealoushe

I’m dealing just fine. This forum is meant to educate, so there are plenty of opinions around people don’t agree with. I have to laugh at your attempt to know anything about my riding experience based on these comments. How many horses have you started? What have they gone on to do successfully? If you want to start throwing shade you better have something to back it up.

You clearly missed the point. I didn’t say they all do - I said uneducated or bad trainers/coaches do. A good trainer knows that dressage is dressage - no matter the end game. It is basically just good fundamentals in riding and training here.

Those with dressage education, train the same regardless of an event horse or dressage horse for dressage. Every horse is different, no matter the discipline, so they all take a unique approach, however the basic fundamentals are the same.

Since you are so adamant they are different, can you elaborate and tell me what I have been missing then? What differences in training are you seeing in eventing dressage and pure dressage.

Enlighten me.

with all due respect, you’re the one “throwing shade” - you’re also completely drawing conclusions on things i didn’t say. i’m still trying to figure out where i compared your skill level to a pony-clubber (?).

i was involved in breaking and starting the young horses in the programs i mentioned above.

i’ll oblige with an example, even though it’s probably a waste of my time… i don’t know how anyone that has worked in both disciplines can say that the way we break and train these horses is identical. it isn’t. i am sure some programs have very similar methods.

in one of the WS stints i had, as an eventer: WB yearlings were left in a field with very little handling at all besides basics until they were 2-3, depending on their maturity. they lived out 24/7 in a herd setting with other horses their age and one patriarch. basics were installed and once they were ready for backing, they were broken very similar to how TB exercise riders do it. saddling in stall, stall time mounting, some very basic/light lunge work… and as soon as they were confirmed stop and steering, they were hacked out with very little ring work. first few months saw them ponying and hacking out. 4-5-6 YOA the ring work increased but lunge work was not frequent. lots of country mileage, lots of popping over natural obstacles. the focus being ridability over terrain with lots of distraction in the environment, developing a good baseline of fitness, and a boldness & fifth leg out in the field. there was a major stress on mileage and conditioning work. basics of dressage training scale were installed but their early education was primarily based on riding out in a field, not in a ring. i don’t think any of them saw real collection until 8-9 YOA. lateral work was introduced fairly early but not implemented with anywhere near the same amount of frequency. the amount of time we had to dedicate the horses to “dressage days” was shared with other, sometimes more important days: road & track conditioning/interval work, hack days, and jump school days. these horses usually saw 5-7 days of work with the “off day” usually being a 1-2hr walk hack. there just was not enough time in the week to hammer home the same correctness and efficiency for dressage as there is for the pure-dressage horses, who only have one skill they need to be adept at, which is dressage.

the “Straight” dressage program i was part of, these young horses were cut from a completely different cloth than the WBs i mentioned above… as was the barn culture. WB yearlings saw 2-8 hrs T/O if that, always alone, very few herd settings. booted to the hilt any time they left a stall. once they were backed as 3.5(some at 4) YOA they lived and died by the lungeline + side-reins until they were 4-5 y/o. most of them were rideable and elastic right out of the stall - they had very different temperaments than the horses i was used to growing up. basics of training scale were installed and they were doing collection & lateral work by 5/6. lots of stress on correctness and straightness, lots of work on expression whereas my impression with the event horses was we worked more on controlling the rhythm which is a fairly basic enterprise. early education for these horses was all done in the ring. i don’t think i ever hacked a single one outside of “around the ring”. they never saw real terrain either. a lot of the owners did not want their horses to be “Trail horses” and even though the trainer had a much more lax view about hacking out (she used to be an eventer) her clients did not want their very expensive horses relegated to “hacks”.

these were both good programs, producing horses with good competition results. i enjoyed the horses and clients of both but they were very different, with different mindsets and different focuses on what they wanted the apex of their horse’s career to be. the focus is completely different. which results in completely different training styles and a different culture. the horses were also completely different. there was not a single TB in the dressage barn and if someone had pulled up with one, it would have been laughed right out of the facility. the horses in the UL dressage barn were such high quality, high caliber horses they just did not compare… and i love my TBs but even i can admit a TB rarely has the sitting ability or elasticity of a dressage-bred warmblood.

i don’t think anyone is saying “event dressage and straight dressage should be different.” if you read my original post you’d see that i actually don’t agree that they should be different. i think it was the first thing i said, actually.

if event dressage knowledge/education was identical to pure dressage, eventers wouldn’t be lessoning with pure dressage instructors, or seeking education from UL dressage riders. the proof is in the pudding - especially when our top event riders are publicly attending clinics and/or lessons from BNT/UL dressage clinicians.

[Samantha37]

@halt

with all due respect, you’re the one “throwing shade” - you’re also completely drawing conclusions on things i didn’t say. i’m still trying to figure out where i compared your skill level to a pony-clubber (?).

i was involved in breaking and starting the young horses in the programs i mentioned above.

i’ll oblige with an example, even though it’s probably a waste of my time… i don’t know how anyone that has worked in both disciplines can say that the way we break and train these horses is identical. it isn’t. i am sure some programs have very similar methods.

in one of the WS stints i had, as an eventer: WB yearlings were left in a field with very little handling at all besides basics until they were 2-3, depending on their maturity. they lived out 24/7 in a herd setting with other horses their age and one patriarch. basics were installed and once they were ready for backing, they were broken very similar to how TB exercise riders do it. saddling in stall, stall time mounting, some very basic/light lunge work… and as soon as they were confirmed stop and steering, they were hacked out with very little ring work. first few months saw them ponying and hacking out. 4-5-6 YOA the ring work increased but lunge work was not frequent. lots of country mileage, lots of popping over natural obstacles. the focus being ridability over terrain with lots of distraction in the environment, developing a good baseline of fitness, and a boldness & fifth leg out in the field. there was a major stress on mileage and conditioning work. basics of dressage training scale were installed but their early education was primarily based on riding out in a field, not in a ring. i don’t think any of them saw real collection until 8-9 YOA. lateral work was introduced fairly early but not implemented with anywhere near the same amount of frequency. the amount of time we had to dedicate the horses to “dressage days” was shared with other, sometimes more important days: road & track conditioning/interval work, hack days, and jump school days. these horses usually saw 5-7 days of work with the “off day” usually being a 1-2hr walk hack. there just was not enough time in the week to hammer home the same correctness and efficiency for dressage as there is for the pure-dressage horses, who only have one skill they need to be adept at, which is dressage.

the “Straight” dressage program i was part of, these young horses were cut from a completely different cloth than the WBs i mentioned above… as was the barn culture. WB yearlings saw 2-8 hrs T/O if that, always alone, very few herd settings. booted to the hilt any time they left a stall. once they were backed as 3.5(some at 4) YOA they lived and died by the lungeline + side-reins until they were 4-5 y/o. most of them were rideable and elastic right out of the stall - they had very different temperaments than the horses i was used to growing up. basics of training scale were installed and they were doing collection & lateral work by 5/6. lots of stress on correctness and straightness, lots of work on expression whereas my impression with the event horses was we worked more on controlling the rhythm which is a fairly basic enterprise. early education for these horses was all done in the ring. i don’t think i ever hacked a single one outside of “around the ring”. they never saw real terrain either. a lot of the owners did not want their horses to be “Trail horses” and even though the trainer had a much more lax view about hacking out (she used to be an eventer) her clients did not want their very expensive horses relegated to “hacks”.

these were both good programs, producing horses with good competition results. i enjoyed the horses and clients of both but they were very different, with different mindsets and different focuses on what they wanted the apex of their horse’s career to be. the focus is completely different. which results in completely different training styles and a different culture. the horses were also completely different. there was not a single TB in the dressage barn and if someone had pulled up with one, it would have been laughed right out of the facility. the horses in the UL dressage barn were such high quality, high caliber horses they just did not compare… and i love my TBs but even i can admit a TB rarely has the sitting ability or elasticity of a dressage-bred warmblood.

i don’t think anyone is saying “event dressage and straight dressage should be different.” if you read my original post you’d see that i actually don’t agree that they should be different. i think it was the first thing i said, actually.

if event dressage knowledge/education was identical to pure dressage, eventers wouldn’t be lessoning with pure dressage instructors, or seeking education from UL dressage riders. the proof is in the pudding - especially when our top event riders are publicly attending clinics and/or lessons from BNT/UL dressage clinicians.

THANK YOU!!!