Eventing Dressage vs. other types of Dressage... How different are they really?

[Denali6298]

@halt @Samantha37 and @Jealoushe: You all are right. However, my experiences have been more in line with @Jealoushe’s and my personal belief is that all horses with in reason should be started the same in terms of having a solid LL dressage foundation. Now, depending on the discipline, of course the training will change. One would not condition an event horse the same way one would condition a GP dressage horse. Starting them however doesn’t need to be different it’s different because of different programs.

Also @halt, I don’t know what UL dressage barn you worked at but I have never been laughed at for having my OTTB and draftx in a barn full of high end and sometimes syndicated UL purpose bred warmbloods. I felt nothing but welcomed. I use this as an example of how our experiences are different, not wrong.

[halt]

@Denali6298

@halt @Samantha37 and @Jealoushe: You all are right. However, my experiences have been more in line with @Jealoushe’s and my personal belief is that all horses with in reason should be started the same in terms of having a solid LL dressage foundation. Now, depending on the discipline, of course the training will change. One would not condition an event horse the same way one would condition a GP dressage horse. Starting them however doesn’t need to be different it’s different because of different programs.

Also @halt, I don’t know what UL dressage barn you worked at but I have never been laughed at for having my OTTB and draftx in a barn full of high end and sometimes syndicated UL purpose bred warmbloods. I felt nothing but welcomed. I use this as an example of how our experiences are different, not wrong.

i’m glad to read that. :yes: my TB flies under the radar because he doesn’t look or move like people assume TBs should look or move like (whatever that is). it seems pervasive in welly-world & ocala that a TB is not as good quality as a WB.

all horses should have a solid LL foundation - absolutely. completely agree with that.

[Denali6298]

@halt

i’m glad to read that. :yes: my TB flies under the radar because he doesn’t look or move like people assume TBs should look or move like (whatever that is). it seems pervasive in welly-world & ocala that a TB is not as good quality as a WB.

all horses should have a solid LL foundation - absolutely. completely agree with that.

I’m sure if I said I’m bringing them along to show GP I would have been laughed out of the barn. :lol:

[Samantha37]

@Denali6298

Also halt, I don’t know what UL dressage barn you worked at but I have never been laughed at for having my OTTB and draftx in a barn full of high end and sometimes syndicated UL purpose bred warmbloods. I felt nothing but welcomed. I use this as an example of how our experiences are different, not wrong.

I would agree with you on this for sure but I have heard about it in other barns.

The barn group I am a part of (GP dressage trainer) loves our TBs. There are 3 of us who have them and our trainer sees a lot of value in each of them. I have never once been discouraged by my trainer or teammates because I have an OTTB.

MTA: My hopefully new OTTB is hopefully going to get to PSG if not higher. That is the long term goal that my trainer fully supports/came up with.

[Denali6298]

@Samantha37

I would agree with you on this for sure but I have heard about it in other barns.

The barn group I am a part of (GP dressage trainer) loves our TBs. There are 3 of us who have them and our trainer sees a lot of value in each of them. I have never once been discouraged by my trainer or teammates because I have an OTTB.

MTA: My hopefully new OTTB is hopefully going to get to PSG if not higher. That is the long term goal that my trainer fully supports/came up with.

I have as well and I do not associate with those barns and trainers. I had a jumper instructor once who HATED my last mare, the draftx. It was because she didn’t have enough tools to help us. The UL dressage instructor, loved her and thought she was the perfect horse for my goals.

I have found those that have an attitude about breeds or types of horses do not know how to help the horse and rider. Currently I am talking dressage lessons from my event coach. She told me right off the bat I can teach you to x level then you have to find a different coach. Her instruction on how to accomplish the end goal in the lessons is really no different than what my former UL dressage instructors told me for the level my current mare and I are at.

[Samantha37]

@Denali6298

I have as well and I do not associate with those barns and trainers. I had a jumper instructor once who HATED my last mare, the draftx. It was because she didn’t have enough tools to help us. The UL dressage instructor, loved her and thought she was the perfect horse for my goals.

I have found those that have an attitude about breeds or types of horses do not know how to help the horse and rider. Currently I am talking dressage lessons from my event coach. She told me right off the bat I can teach you to x level then you have to find a different coach. Her instruction on how to accomplish the end goal in the lessons is really no different than what my former UL dressage instructors told me for the level my current mare and I are at.

Sounds like you have a really super trainer now! I won’t associate with those breed-hating barns either.

[Jealoushe]

@halt and @Samantha37 Neither of you can even keep what your argument was straight.

You argued that eventing dressage and dressage dressage are different. They aren’t.

You argued that eventing horses are started differently in dressage than dressage dressage horses are. They aren’t.

At least not when you have an educated trainer involved. This was the point you argued over and over. That they both have very different styles and cultures and thus are trained differently.

Now you changed your tune and said

i don’t think anyone is saying “event dressage and straight dressage should be different.” if you read my original post you’d see that i actually don’t agree that they should be different. i think it was the first thing i said, actually.

Which was basically what my entire point argued…so you agree with me. Great.
Time to move on.

[halt]

@Jealoushe

@halt and @Samantha37 Neither of you can even keep what your argument was straight.

You argued that eventing dressage and dressage dressage are different. They aren’t.

You argued that eventing horses are started differently in dressage than dressage dressage horses are. They aren’t.

At least not when you have an educated trainer involved. This was the point you argued over and over. That they both have very different styles and cultures and thus are trained differently.

Now you changed your tune and said

Which was basically what my entire point argued…so you agree with me. Great.
Time to move on.

i think you need to read for comprehension. start at my original post. you came in hot and bothered because you misinterpreted part of my post. this is a common theme for you over the years. my OP, btw:

@halt

dabbling in both worlds, competitively (or i was before horse took an extended hiatus from being sound) there are totally differences in what is focused on and taught by “event dressage” coaches and “dressage” coaches.

this is the first thing i said in this thread. hardly a “change of tune”. i then went onto say i don’t think it’s right, but that’s the culture we’ve found ourselves in.

right now, eventing dressage and straight dressage have their differences. is it right? no. i cannot believe this is an issue of contention with you. if event dressage was not different than dressage why are our top event riders taking lessons from top dressage coaches?

i also would love to know where you’re getting this ironclad fact that “event horses and dressage horses are started the same way”. i suppose this is a stretch but should i assume that race horses are also started the same way?

why don’t you ask Jimmy Wofford how he prefers his event horses to be started, and then ask Carl Hester how his dressage horses are started. or ask MJ how he starts his horses, and then IW how hers are started.

i guarantee you the answers will be different. :rolleyes: that was my point. the basics, quality of paces, and training scale would be evident in any professional barn but the day to day training and conditioning can be night and day. i don’t know any dressage horses that go for gallop sets on the countryside, do you? i also don’t know many true event horses nailing collection in their fifth and sixth year. the day to day training is very different for both horses because they perform different jobs.

this is my last post on this subject because it’s obvious you don’t want to learn that other people do things differently, you just want to argue.

[joiedevie99]

Will Coleman and Boyd Martin showed their horses at AGDF in Wellington last week and did well.

[Samantha37]

@Jealoushe

@halt and @Samantha37 Neither of you can even keep what your argument was straight.

You argued that eventing dressage and dressage dressage are different. They aren’t.

You argued that eventing horses are started differently in dressage than dressage dressage horses are. They aren’t.

At least not when you have an educated trainer involved. This was the point you argued over and over. That they both have very different styles and cultures and thus are trained differently.

Now you changed your tune and said

Which was basically what my entire point argued…so you agree with me. Great.
Time to move on.

I never changed my “argument” (or as I call it - discussion). I stated from my first post that there is a difference between eventing dressage and dressage dressage. Can you truthfully state that if you were to sit at a normal HT dressage arena for a few hours (not a CIC or CCI) that you would see “good” dressage all over the place? Heck no, it would be in the minority.

I did not bring up the starting of horses -I just stated my experience. No change in “argument”

I do think there are classically trained eventers but I think they are not the majority.

@halt I totally agree with you

[Scribbler]

Well, in dressage as in jumping there are best practices and then a range of not so optimal practices, and then regional differences in those practices as well as between individual trainers.

Since folks can only speak about what they have seen and known, some folks have observed better training than others.

I regularly pop up and say that all the lower level competition dressage riders and trainers I get to see observe see saw the reins, water-ski, and think only about getting horse btv whatever it takes, and they never succeed past first level. Whenever I say this someone pops up and says where do you find these people? Or claims that most folk in their area ride correctly and many AA get their horses to fourth or higher.

Obviously having no proof one way or the other I’m not going to say that I don’t believe them! Also I am very happy to believe things are better elsewhere

So taking strong positions based on regionally diverse data and practices is not particularly useful. I expect that everyone is doing their best to describe what they have observed.

[enjoytheride]

@Samantha37

I never changed my “argument” (or as I call it - discussion). I stated from my first post that there is a difference between eventing dressage and dressage dressage. Can you truthfully state that if you were to sit at a normal HT dressage arena for a few hours (not a CIC or CCI) that you would see “good” dressage all over the place? Heck no, it would be in the minority.

I did not bring up the starting of horses -I just stated my experience. No change in “argument”

I do think there are classically trained eventers but I think they are not the majority.

@halt I totally agree with you

Are you freaking serious? “Good Dressage” is in the minority at a HT? This is why some of you DQs get the reputation of having sticks up your butts. What a ridiculous thing to say to justify being cruel and superior to an entire group of people.

I mean, can you seriously sit on your high horse and tell me that a majority of dressage schooling shows have “good dressage?” Isn’t it more likely that as dressage moves up the levels, or appears at recognized competition where more money invested means people are less likely to show until they are competitive is the real reason?

You guys wonder why more people aren’t attracted to straight dressage? It’s THIS RIGHT HERE. The superiority DQ holier then though complex that keeps people new to the sport far away from straight dressage and into eventing which seems to be much more welcoming of people getting their feet wet and learning how to be better riders.

[thecolorcoal]

@enjoytheride - I appreciate this post. I am trying to lay low and avoid the DQs as best I can, and let their snarky remarks about my horse and I roll off my shoulders, but it’s very hard when you’re just getting into the sport and before you even step into the ring you are told, by others who are supposed to have the same passions as you, that it’s useless because of the mount you are on. I have noticed a general difference between the dressage presented at Rolex and the dressage in Amsterdam at the last FEI show. I appreciate both styles, but I particularly admire the Rolex/Eventing dressage because the riders just seem to be trying to do the best with the mounts they have. Is it valegro-level awesome? No, but for tb-types I think it’s pretty impressive!

I feel i constantly need my trainer’s support and reassurance. I feel bad because I know she’s getting tired of telling me “everything is ok” every single lesson when I bring up “but she can’t ____ and she’s downhill and she doesn’t have the knees and the warmblood riders will laugh and me and etc etc etc.” I am interested in dressage for the training, and the bond and harmony you get with a horse. Upper levels would be a dream but even if we stay at 1st level forever, just getting my mare and I more in sync with each other is an accomplishment in itself.

I am shocked she is actually RESPONDING to the contact I have! She’s doing better under this “modern” trainer than she ever did under the classical trainer. Today when I rode we cantered FROM A HALT. Our canter transitions have always been a struggle, mainly because she has a naturally weak hind end and it’s taken us forever to build up on it, but today we got it from a halt! And we had a collected canter, a slow rhythmic cadence with an uphill tendency!!!

I am so so so excited, this horse shouldn’t be physically capable of such things but we’re doing it! Anything to help keep her sound, happy and fit… if dressage can help my mare with her inherent problems (read other threads) than I am all for it.

[atr]

Honestly, in my experience, when you do show, everyone else is going to be so focused on their own ride and problems you could be riding a camel and no-one would remark on it.

Also, I think, unless you are in Wellington or somewhere like, you will be pleasantly surprised by the range of horse and pony types you see in the warmup ring. Your TB will certainly not be out of place.

[thecolorcoal]

@atr, we are in california. Unfortunately, we are in an area of CA dominated by grand prix H/J barns (we have 3 in the area) and lots and lots of warmbloods. Many of our riders compete in FEI and a few from the local university’s riding facility went to HITS just a few days ago. However we also have a ton of eventers and some 4* eventers as well, and they all ride thoroughbreds. They tend to compete in the local dressage classes for practice, so we’ll be up against them (they are miles better than me! but a lot of them are my friends :)). Alas, maresy isn’t confirmed sound for eventing so it’s not a sport we’ve chosen. We could do it but we’d be playing with fire, and as this is my only horse I’d rather not risk injury.

Considering we have no rated shows at the park this year and just schooling shows, I can breathe easy knowing all breeds will enter hopefully we’ll make it up to the east bay for the pleasanton dressage classes! Just got my fees in and my little card came in the mail!

[Scribbler]

@atr

Honestly, in my experience, when you do show, everyone else is going to be so focused on their own ride and problems you could be riding a camel and no-one would remark on it.

Also, I think, unless you are in Wellington or somewhere like, you will be pleasantly surprised by the range of horse and pony types you see in the warmup ring. Your TB will certainly not be out of place.

Exactly. People actually don’t stick around and watch other riders at most dressage shows. Unlike h/j where you tend to stick around the gate waiting your turn. Also watching lower level dressage tests is fairly boring unless it’s your friend or student.

Also if someone comes in on a giant warmblood and scores higher than you, they aren’t going to laugh at you. They are more concerned about their own results. And they are probably more interested in how their scores compare to their last test, than how their scores compare to yours.

OP it sounds like you generate way too much stress for yourself trying to second guess everything and trying to worry about what everyone else might think about every. Last. Thing. you do.

You cannot be successful as an athlete (or indeed anything) that way. You need to narrow your focus down to what you can do, shut out the social anxiety, and trust your coach.

No one succeeds in running a marathon if they suddenly have a panic attack half way through thinking that someone might think their shorts are the wrong color. Etc.

Young girls are socialized to be extremely socially competitive and anxious whereas boys get their competitiveness channeled into sports and other activities. Girls can end up being paralyzed by all the voices they have internalized.

People who are excellent riders have the capacity to shut out the rsilbirds and the what-ifs and ride the horse in the moment of now.

That however also requires getting rid of any desire to “prove yourself” or “show them” and just focus on the goal for its own sake.

Also it is rather insulting to your coach to keep dumping social insecurities on her. She had taken you on as a client and clearly she has faith in you. When you dump anxiety on her you are effectively saying “I don’t trust your judgment.” Also you are wasting valuable lesson time.

I realize the 20s can be a hard time as far as letting go of teenage thought patterns of social anxiety and need for constant reassurance. But it’s something we all need to do in our 20s if we want to be functional competent adults, find a path and stick to it.

Once you know your own worth you aren’t knocked sideways by every comment that contradicts you, and you lose the notion that your competence is going to be decided by bling or fancy labels.

[thecolorcoal]

@Scribbler, i really do appreciate how much you care. I think it’s very admirable. My trainer knows my story and my horse’s story, and luckily is very compassionate and patient with me. It’s been a very hard road and we’ve gone it alone. My support system is small and comprises of the people at my barn but for a long time it was just me and my horse by ourselves surrounded by those who pitied me. I don’t want to dwell too much on that story but I am happy to share if with you if you ever need entertainment.

Things are finally coming out from the depths of the hell we were in, so that’s always very encouraging. I don’t have as much experience in the competitive world as some of my friends because I was never given, nor financially had, the opportunity. So I feel a few steps behind everyone else.

My trainer just brought us back to 2’ verticals. Leaser jumps much much higher than me and I am 100% content just slowly climbing back up to my previous level after some really severe confidence knocks. I’ve gotten over all of those terrors and anxieties and Mare and I trust each other again, so it’s time to pull myself up by my bootstraps!

I feel comfortable talking to everyone on COTH. Like i’ve mentioned we’re a ragtag bunch of riders who are sort of grassrooting, so we’re all pretty much at ground 0 with sprinkles of experience. I don’t have the huge network I used to at my old barn, so COTH supplements for that.

I do really want to thank everyone who has helped me these past couple of months with all my questions and concerns. It’s really meant so, so much.

–

Relating back to dressage, this horse and I are learning together. She’s spectacular and while I’ve never sat on a GP dressage horse before (ONE COMES IN MARCH for me to ride!!) , we are creeping along and these movements are becoming easier and easier for her. I’m also finding I am an important piece in the puzzle. My balance and mental attitude really does affect her. If I’m half-hearted about something, she’s not as inclined to do it.

Dressage has changed our lives so tremendously and made our rocky relationship one of trust and, i’d say, love. I can sit her spooks, her bucks, and i no longer feel intimidated because I have the balance and core strength to keep myself atop of her.

I’m glad to know there’s somewhat of an interpretative answer to my question, and there are those who have experienced the differences I have. I feel like the classical route wasn’t for us but I have also seen how heavy-handed riding can ruin a horse (a lower-level eventer trained by rollkur-lady is an example). I admit, @Scribbler, right now I’m muddled about the difference between “heavy handed” and “heavy contact,” and I’m eager to differentiate the two so I can apply them to my rides and check myself.

[Samantha37]

@enjoytheride

Are you freaking serious? “Good Dressage” is in the minority at a HT? This is why some of you DQs get the reputation of having sticks up your butts. What a ridiculous thing to say to justify being cruel and superior to an entire group of people.

I mean, can you seriously sit on your high horse and tell me that a majority of dressage schooling shows have “good dressage?” Isn’t it more likely that as dressage moves up the levels, or appears at recognized competition where more money invested means people are less likely to show until they are competitive is the real reason?

You guys wonder why more people aren’t attracted to straight dressage? It’s THIS RIGHT HERE. The superiority DQ holier then though complex that keeps people new to the sport far away from straight dressage and into eventing which seems to be much more welcoming of people getting their feet wet and learning how to be better riders.

Did you read any of my other posts on this thread? I’m stating my experience. Not that ALL eventing dressage is bad but that I see a lot of it when I groom for my friends at HTs. I AM A FORMER LL EVENTER - until 3 years ago! Straight dressage made a wonderful difference in my life and my riding ability and I realized I had been doing it wrong for a long time.

I am not a superior DQ- I ride an OTTB, am not in a training barn but travel to my trainer for lessons monthly…and I’m in the process of getting a second OTTB because they are my favorite. I have no holier than thou attitude I promise. If my posts comes off like that I apologize. I am truly stating my observations.

And yes, I have watched a lot of dressage tests at both straight dressage shows and events. I enjoy watching the good ones across the board, just like I enjoy watching really well done SJ and XC. To be completely honest, the absolutely worst dressage I have ever seen was that Intermediare rider S.B.

MTA: My close friend is an eventer, we used to ride with the same trainer, now she is with a really classically trained dressage eventer and she said the difference is huge. But guess which trainer has a bigger business?

[Moderator_1]

Lively discussion here…a reminder to continue it without getting drawn into personal commentary.

Thanks!
Mod 1

[Denali6298]

@Samantha37

Did you read any of my other posts on this thread? I’m stating my experience. Not that ALL eventing dressage is bad but that I see a lot of it when I groom for my friends at HTs. I AM A FORMER LL EVENTER - until 3 years ago! Straight dressage made a wonderful difference in my life and my riding ability and I realized I had been doing it wrong for a long time.

I am not a superior DQ- I ride an OTTB, am not in a training barn but travel to my trainer for lessons monthly…and I’m in the process of getting a second OTTB because they are my favorite. I have no holier than thou attitude I promise. If my posts comes off like that I apologize. I am truly stating my observations.

And yes, I have watched a lot of dressage tests at both straight dressage shows and events. I enjoy watching the good ones across the board, just like I enjoy watching really well done SJ and XC. To be completely honest, the absolutely worst dressage I have ever seen was that Intermediare rider S.B.

MTA: My close friend is an eventer, we used to ride with the same trainer, now she is with a really classically trained dressage eventer and she said the difference is huge. But guess which trainer has a bigger business?

One of the points I was getting at is you and Halt seem to be making blanket statements about “eventing dressage” because you rode with bad instructors. For whatever reason you rode dressage with an event coach who wasn’t that proficient at teaching dressage. Until now, my dressage instruction has always been with a dressage instructor, jumping the same. Not everyone has had bad instructors and a few bad ones should not be the cause of such blanket statements.