Eventing, Hunting, Soundness, Longevity. Let's have a conversation!

[Winding_Down]

Love all these comments! And I agree with all of them. The stressors that event horses endure, and the constancy of those stressors, are certainly more intense.

The idea that horses move more freely when hunting… intriguing and certainly true. My made hunt horse baslcally hunts on the buckle and I make contact with his mouth 3-4 times per hour (I am not kidding). He knows that he is to keep a 1/2 length + behind the horse in front of him, and we typically roll (little bottle-necking) over the jumps. So he is totally balanced and choosing his own way along.

Horses who hunt can be on more meds, for sure.

There s a selection bias in event horses as well as in hunt horses. I have known of horses that break when they move up to training or up to prelim. But they can continue eventing, just not at those levels. Same with hunting as there are older horses that become 3rd flight horses because they do not have the soundness to run and jump.

[Feliz]

Very interesting topic. There is definitely the bias in how we remember things - I suspect it’s easier to remember the horses we see season after season, vs the ones that don’t hold up.

I hunt and show jump now, but used to event to 0.95m.Here are my thoughts:

Number of jump efforts and difficulty of jump: where I hunt we can jump an enormous number of fences in a day (one day the master stopped counting at 120!) but usually they are only around 0.90m, with no width and are generally single fences that are jumped out of a relaxed gallop (ideally!). There are bigger jumps around 1.10m and we do have some big wide hedges too. Most of the field will not jump anywhere near this many in a day. I would say I would jump 40-50/day fairly regularly. But this is a very different effort to having to collect and jump up and down banks, tight combinations etc.

Ability to stop - out hunting, if you feel your horse tiring, it’s easy to go to the back and take it easy for a while. Ditto if the ground is hard or particularly bad going - if you are in the field you can always choose to take it slowly.

Conditioning: hunters seem to do longer slower rides to build up fitness. As it’s important to have a horse that will travel over different terrain safely in a group, going on a 2hr forest ride is a valid training ride. When I was eventing there always seemed to be a time crunch and 2hr forest ride was really hard to fit in.

The hunt season builds up slowly - the start of our season is definitely slower as it’s warmer and drier therefore scenting isn’t so good so runs are shorter. By the end of the season we can hunt pretty hard as the horses have gradually built up to the longer runs and tougher days over the previous months.

One thing that does perplex me - leg care! Hunters in my neck of the woods just don’t seem to do it after the hunt. There are a few that do something (ice, wrapping, poulticing) but the vast major don’t.

[TB_or_not_TB]

I would also add a note about age and the speed at which the horses are brought along. Any horse who is managed slowly and carefully in the beginning has a better chance of long term soundness over time. If event horses are in a professional’s program, it is more cost effective to get them out early with an FEI record than to take it easy. (Not everyone chooses this route, but it’s certainly cheaper than waiting an extra 2-3 years to let them develop.) Hunt horses just aren’t under that same kind of pressure for quantifiable results.

Nor do they have qualifications to meet, extended time on the road, and maxed-out technical elements that are mentally draining (which means less physical precision and increased risk of injury.)

[kcmel]

[QUOTE=IFG;7825072]
I will give you the scientist’s explanation. It is a selection bias called the Healthy Worker effect. Hunt horses only stay hunt horses if they can stay sound. Much as I love Hunting (and so did my horse), he was winnowed out by his inability to stay sound during the season.[/QUOTE]

I am having trouble understanding how this would affect hunt horses differently from eventers. But I am not a scientist–oh wait, I am!

I was thinking recently about the long hauls, considering the recent thread on the farm forum on how rough a horse trailer ride is. Around here the ULRs don’t think twice about hauling to Richland, Bromont, or down to So Pines. Those are long trips! Sometimes they will even come back from Aiken in the Spring and then haul horses back down for the Fork. I do wonder how much wear and tear this causes. Hunt horses haul more often but for much briefer trips.

[fordtraktor]

I think our horses in general used to last longer for the most part. However, I think (1) we rode them differently on a daily basis, much “long and slow” riding out over hill and dale and less circling in an arena, and (2) now what we ask them to do is more technical; and (3) we expect a higher degree of soundness today that we did then.

I know my eye today is far more attuned to a horse being slightly off than it used to be. In the old days, unless it was head bobbing, 95% of us rode them anyway. The cure for “NQR” was “warm them up out of it” according to many old timers. It might not have been the worst thing for the horses, in retrospect. Now that I am older, I do warm up out of my aches…

And as for long and slow, I would love to do that again. It’s hard to have the time, as a working adult with a family and a farm. I wish I could take long slow hacks several times a week on all my horses, it truly is the best means of preserving long-term soundness I think. I do what I think is second-best, which is leave them out 24/7.

[smilesthepony]

[QUOTE=kcmel;7826048]
I am having trouble understanding how this would affect hunt horses differently from eventers. But I am not a scientist–oh wait, I am! [/QUOTE]
I’m going to play devils advocate a bit here, hope no one minds,

I too am having trouble discerning how a selection bias would be at play here. Yes, people choose a certain type of horse to hunt, and the unsound fizzle out, but so do the unsound eventers. Maybe someone can explain how this would effect one population more than another?

In terms of soundness, most hunt horses I know are very hardy. If they had a severe or hidden lameness problem, it would be extremely noticeable after 12+ miles of steep hills, mud, turns… There is just no way to hide that.

I do agree on the mental load eventing takes, and think that does play a part. A fox hunter knows their job. They know their distance, how to balance themselves and how much effort to use to get over a fence. This security lets their mind relax a small bit, where an eventer must be constantly thinking for themselves.

I also think the horse type might have something to do with soundness as well. Many fox hunters want a fun horse to hunt, and will not put up with quirks. These hunters tend to be warmbloods, or sensible Tb’s. Eventers are much tolerant of a promising but quirky horse. The type that attempts suicide in the field in my experience do not make the best hunters.
But, this hypothesis could go the other way as well, many people feel heavy drafts break down due to excess weight and poor feet.
An interesting discussion, and I am enjoying everyone’s thoughts!

[Highflyer]

I actually think event horses are reasonably sound. Most of the ones I know compete well into their late teens. Most of them also are turned out a great deal (often even 24/7) and hacked several times a week.

I do think that hunting selects for mental soundness a lot more effectively than eventing, which means that it eliminates the horses that are especially disaster prone and hard on themselves.

[gypsymare]

[QUOTE=TB or not TB?;7825932]
I would also add a note about age and the speed at which the horses are brought along. Any horse who is managed slowly and carefully in the beginning has a better chance of long term soundness over time. If event horses are in a professional’s program, it is more cost effective to get them out early with an FEI record than to take it easy. (Not everyone chooses this route, but it’s certainly cheaper than waiting an extra 2-3 years to let them develop.) Hunt horses just aren’t under that same kind of pressure for quantifiable results.

Nor do they have qualifications to meet, extended time on the road, and maxed-out technical elements that are mentally draining (which means less physical precision and increased risk of injury.)[/QUOTE]
I would estimate that more that 3/4 of the horses in my current hunt are OTTBs which get an even earlier start, but to even that out, many eventers come off the track, too.

Mid season hunt days are long and hard but most of the jumps are pretty straightforward. No dramatic straining and body contortions to get over vs some of the purposefully difficult questions asked at an event where 1/4 of the participants barely avoid a rotational fall. Most hunters don’t get drilled in never ending circles in order to “win on a dressage score.” And while some may be hunting into their late 20’s I’ve seen many, many horses retire earlier from hunting injuries. I’m not sure that there really is such a disparity. As someone already mentioned, hunting horses aren’t always 100% sound. Some arthritic stiffness that doesn’t seem to bother a happily hunting old horse would be grounds for retirement of an eventer.

[Lady_Eboshi]

[QUOTE=fordtraktor;7826065]
I think our horses in general used to last longer for the most part. However, I think (1) we rode them differently on a daily basis, much “long and slow” riding out over hill and dale and less circling in an arena, and (2) now what we ask them to do is more technical; and (3) we expect a higher degree of soundness today that we did then.

I know my eye today is far more attuned to a horse being slightly off than it used to be. In the old days, unless it was head bobbing, 95% of us rode them anyway. The cure for “NQR” was “warm them up out of it” according to many old timers. It might not have been the worst thing for the horses, in retrospect. Now that I am older, I do warm up out of my aches…

And as for long and slow, I would love to do that again. It’s hard to have the time, as a working adult with a family and a farm. I wish I could take long slow hacks several times a week on all my horses, it truly is the best means of preserving long-term soundness I think. I do what I think is second-best, which is leave them out 24/7.[/QUOTE]

THIS^, 100%! In the past 25 years I’ve watched the competitive riders stack on more and more drilling over fences for the rider’s sake, combined with ever-more “cranking in circles” in a compressed frame which is forced, not self-carriage. At the same time, with decreasing open land, hacking out and long-slow-distance trail riding as well as living outside have decreased markedly. Very large numbers of riders in all competitive disciplines virtually never leave a ring.

The old default ways of keeping horses sound, fit and usable for many years being thus unavailable to so many, into the breach have come all the many “maintenance” medications and practitioners of so-called complimentary therapies.

Occasionally I have to give a client or friend a reality check that the whole point of riding horses USED to be getting from Point A to Point B. And they tend to stay sounder if that’s the way you use them. :winkgrin:

The people who mention selection bias are also correct; foxhunting, like our old riding school, is a Darwinian environment where those who don’t work out are just gone, and rather quickly.

[MickMac]

[QUOTE=CindyCRNA;7825473]
This!! I would think that almost all event horses are pretty sound as you really can’t be off in the dressage phase but you have to have noticeable lameness to be pulled in the hunt field. I did not like road running. I heard one hunter tell another that it is good for the horse to road run. Uh, no. I hunted my mare last winter after eventing lower levels all summer and we evented this year. However, at some point she tore a suspensory and developed side bone. She was in great shape in the spring but alas, it was too much wear and tear.[/QUOTE]

I haven’t ever heard “road running is good for the horse” however, you will hear that “road walking is good for the horse” that is a big difference in implications. Is it possible that the two huntsmen you overheard talking, knew the correct reference and it was a mis-speak?
I’m 99% sure that Denny Emerson has referenced road-walking in a “you should do it” sort of way.

[weixiao]

[QUOTE=Lady Eboshi;7826124]

The people who mention selection bias are also correct; foxhunting, like our old riding school, is a Darwinian environment where those who don’t work out are just gone, and rather quickly.[/QUOTE]

This is how I was thinking of selection bias in this case in the context of UL event horses vs hunt horses. Based on my experience if an injury comes up with an UL event horse, it is treated with stall rest and shock wave and bathed in the water of the Ganges. If the horse irritates that injury again down the line, the process repeats with the intent of the horse hopefully coming back again. I remember reading about a program that I believe was Phillip Dutton’s, but maybe was WFP, where they didn’t do a lot of extra wrapping icing etc to horses until they’d proved they could stay sound at prelim (that level specific makes me think it might have been Dutton but WFP had said something similar somewhere else). However, I think after prelim eventers don’t select based on soundness as a top criteria. Once you’ve invested everything into a horse to get it to say, intermediate, and it looks like it has the skill to go on, I think it is rare for that horse to be removed from the pool entirely. More likely, it will be patched up as best they can to try and keep it together for as long as they can.

Again, based on my experience and observations, it is less likely for that to happen with a hunt horse. It is going to stay sound or it isn’t and if it isn’t it gets removed from the pool into another job.

Not to take away from the quality and value of a good field hunter and based on my foray over to the Hunting forum I know that it can be very difficult to find a top quality made hunt horse. However, I think I’d still feel that if I retired my (hypothetical) made hunt horse because Dobbin wasn’t staying sound it would seem to be less of an economic loss than retiring Fernhill Dobbin at Advanced because he needed some patching up.

[ISR]

[QUOTE=JER;7825181]
The cognitive load is also different in hunting and in eventing. I would think that, at least at the ULs, the cognitive load of novel XC questions, taken solo at UL speed, is considerably more than going with a group in the hunt, often over familiar country.

The demands of cognitive load (and the anticipation of cognitive load) impact physiological performance. More on that, with links to (human) studies, here.[/QUOTE]

While I don’t disagree that the cognitive load is different, I think I agree for different reasons! Unlike eventing, the course is not pre-determined (at least not while hunting live quarry). The footing while out hunting is never as good as it is at any event, and while I won’t underestimate the bravery and cognitive ability of an UL to navigate a difficult question (and the heights!), hunting is rarely a matter of “follow the leader” over a 16’ long coop in a fence line (though I often wish it was!).

A brave horse will navigate a course solo without stopping, but a VERY brave horse will navigate a ditch after watching several others in front refuse the same ditch

[FitToBeTied]

I thought about this thread while finishing a lesson today. I had just untacked my horse, and hounds from the local hunt hit and were running. Best guess they were about a half mile to a mile away.

My horse got really tall, and immediately turned to the sound of the hounds, and ears forward. I had to catch him as he was walking toward the hounds. That’s when you know you have a fox hunter!

My trainer’s eventers were paying no mind to the sound of the hounds. I’m sure if I had not just untacked I could have taken him across the countryside and joined in.

[CindyCRNA]

[QUOTE=MickMac;7826137]
I haven’t ever heard “road running is good for the horse” however, you will hear that “road walking is good for the horse” that is a big difference in implications. Is it possible that the two huntsmen you overheard talking, knew the correct reference and it was a mis-speak?
I’m 99% sure that Denny Emerson has referenced road-walking in a “you should do it” sort of way.[/QUOTE]

I wished that was what was being conveyed. We were road galloping. I pulled up and followed at a fast walk because we continued to gallop on a gravel road for a bit of a distance. When I caught up the group, an older, very prominent member was telling a friend of mine this. That road galloping toughens legs and tendons. I questioned my friend later.

[Highflyer]

It’s not untrue. But it is something you want to build up to slowly.

[QUOTE=CindyCRNA;7827015]
I wished that was what was being conveyed. We were road galloping. I pulled up and followed at a fast walk because we continued to gallop on a gravel road for a bit of a distance. When I caught up the group, an older, very prominent member was telling a friend of mine this. That road galloping toughens legs and tendons. I questioned my friend later.[/QUOTE]

[yellowbritches]

Yes. You wouldn’t want to gallop a horse down a long stretch of road who’s never been on hard going, but gradually building up, first walking, then trotting, can be quite good for them. And if the horse has been conditioned properly, a gallop down a stretch of road will not harm them in the least.

Which reminds me…need to make more time for road hacks…

[merrygoround]

[QUOTE=Equibrit;7825077]
Are you saying that event horses don’t get time off ? If not, why not ?[/QUOTE]

Ah, because we Damnyankees had winter to contend with. Nowadays any one who is anyone comes and plays in your backyard. At the same time, you Southerners took the summer as off. Now you can go North and compete.

[wildlifer]

[QUOTE=FitToBeTied;7825543]
They also are messaged once a month at a minimum.[/QUOTE]

Do they have individual email addresses or do you just use a listserv? ROFL, sorry, I couldn’t resist that one!

As for selection bias, remember visibility too – an unsound hunter or a breakdown in the field or a horse who doesn’t make it is not something the entire horsey internet is going to hear about.

As for road work, yes, it is excellent & I am adamant about “putting legs on my horses.” I almost NEVER ride in an arena or on groomed footing. The ground can be rocky or frozen or muddy or whatever – we will proceed with safety and common sense, but that is how you build strong soft tissue & supporting muscles.

As for developing bone density, once a horse has passed the age of 3-5, he has little ability to develop that the way a younger horse can via the concussion of galloping, so there is quick bottleneck of diminishing returns there. But he can and should still be building and maintaining the strength and versatility of soft tissues, as mentioned above.

[gumtree]

[QUOTE=IFG;7825072]
I will give you the scientist’s explanation. It is a selection bias called the Healthy Worker effect. Hunt horses only stay hunt horses if they can stay sound. Much as I love Hunting (and so did my horse), he was winnowed out by his inability to stay sound during the season.[/QUOTE]

Not in my neck of the woods. My 2 hunters were Steeplechase, Timber horses in the spring and the fall. Did hunter trials and some show jumping in the summer. And hunted in the winter. A lot more fun training out hunting for a couple of hours then galloping 2-3 miles 5-6 days a week. Lots of timber horses are used for hunting. And of course they are all TBs.

[Diamontaire]

[QUOTE=whicker;7825172]
We also have a national champion endurance horse[/QUOTE]

Documentation, please