Eventing, Hunting, Soundness, Longevity. Let's have a conversation!

[Winding_Down]

I have begun hunting again, in earnest, after almost a decade of focusing only on eventing. This is part of the winding down process… as I am ever so closer to the big age of 60 at which point my muffler will reportedly fall off, along with a noticeable decrease in gas mileage an tire traction.

It has occurred to me in the past (and it is particularly salient now) that hunt horses seem to last longer than event horses do. I have hunted first flight along many horses well into their teens and early 20s who are still running and jumping hard.

We were out yesterday and on Thursday and we trotted and GALLOPED on pavement for over a mile both days, we ran hard, jumped, slid down hills, climbed over hard rocky terrain, and jumped many coops on the side of hills, on hard or slick footing… and both of my horses were exhausted at the end. I would venture to say that they were more tired than my horse was at the end of the 2* past year.

And many hunt the same horse on back-to-back days with no noticeable damage.

Those who question riders who ran their WEG horses within two months of the competition, should look at this…

So… why is it that hunt horses last so long? It is NOT always because the standards for soundness are lower - I know many who are owned, managed, and ridden by very conscientious people (as in top vets)

My guess is that hunt horses are off for several months in the summer (most but not all) and the conditioning for hunting does not involve strain to joints (as in jumping grids, etc etc. and doing demanding flat work).

Maybe it is what happens in between events that leads to breakdown of event horses…

I am intrigued… any thoughts? :rolleyes:

[gumtree]

I think you have already given some pretty good reasons. With our horses once they have the jump down we really don’t do much schooling. Ours pretty much live out 24-7. They get around 2 months off which doesn’t seem to effect their level of fitness much.

[weixiao]

I would guess time off is probably significant. Fewer sustained high level jumping efforts than an upper level event horse too.

But, when we are talking in between competitions, what is the average UL horse’s schedule? Back in my jumper days the GP horses didn’t jump much if at all between shows. My brief stint with an eventing barn with 3* and 4* horses didn’t have those horses jumping much at all in between. I’m assuming that’s standard, but I don’t know?

To say demanding flatwork, I would want to know what the longevity of dressage horses was on average, or is it that PLUS the jumping? But I think from a joints perspective, event horses probably don’t do much harder than the average GP show jumper.

I think time off could be a big factor but I still think competitions, not necessarily the in between, play a huge wear down factor.

[smilesthepony]

Having ridden both, and then competed in endurance, I have a few thoughts to add.
Training on different ground I have found is a great way to increase soundness, which happens naturally for hunters. Deep sand, hard concrete, wet grass… the things most people avoid out of concern for their horses, I have found that training slowly on messy and uneven ground very helpful. Also changing it up, a bit of trotting on grass, a bit on a hard dirt road, a bit on sand, helps strengthen soft tissues and the foot.
A lot of them also get a ton of saddle time in straight lines, and learn to balance themselves. Most people won’t hunt an unbalanced horse, and balanced horses don’t transfer weight around as much.
I think many hunters also live a more natural lifestyle. When they are ridden, many are ridden out, over lots of hills, and avoid concussion on deep arena footing, tight turns and collection. Many have 24/7 turn out, and are free to be horses. Most of the hunters I know also get a few free days as well in a row a week, which i feel helps with healing and rejuvenation. So when hunting fit they will do 2 hunts and 1 or 2 free fun rides, and that’s about it.
I also think the way they are ridden plays a part, which might not be a popular opinion. Many are free to use their body in any way they see fit. They relax, trot freely, and carry their weight evenly.

[yellowbritches]

Time off in the spring/summer, a less rigorous schedule between hunts (most don’t do too much more than hack or a little flatwork between hunts if they go out regularly, while event horses get a day off after an event and straight back a pretty intense schedule), less rigorous jumping requirements, less travel, more turn out. Also keep in mind that there’s no drugs and meds regulations, so a stiff older hunt horse can have some NSAIDs on board while a competing event horse can’t (not saying this as a bad thing, far from it. There’s probably many older event horses who have to retire because they can’t have any help in that regard. Not masking injuries, but just the general aches and pains that comes with being an athlete for years).

[yellowbritches]

Smilesthepony posted while I was writing and I agree 110% with all of that! Particularly the way of riding, allowing the horses to balance and care for themselves.

[IFG]

I will give you the scientist’s explanation. It is a selection bias called the Healthy Worker effect. Hunt horses only stay hunt horses if they can stay sound. Much as I love Hunting (and so did my horse), he was winnowed out by his inability to stay sound during the season.

[Equibrit]

Are you saying that event horses don’t get time off ? If not, why not ?

[retreadeventer]

IFG’s explanation makes the most sense.
They hunt because they are sound. They return year after year because they remain sound. Also I think the way they are ridden also matters. My hunting is primarily a straight line – we do corner a bit but mostly we are going forward straight.
Lots of event horse schooling - dressage, jumping - takes place in an arena with lots of corners and circles - hard on hocks and other structures, I’d bet.
I do know that it takes 24 hours for a horse’s system to reset and the cell repair to complete from even a mild stress, such as a 2-hour ship. For a horse to travel to Europe, be stabled in strange places multiple locations over a multiple days, compete at a high level, then travel home - that’s a lot of cell repair/damage going on and common sense says it will take many days to repair and rebuild tissue. On a less stressful level, eventing even locally takes a lot of work to a horse’s body and often at tough times of year - cold, rain, heat.

Hunting for me involves a couple days a week (if I am lucky) but they don’t hunt every day and I think most hunt horses don’t go every day, either but a couple times a week. Having those days off in between probably helps repair and rebuild cell damage and probably might be beneficial but this is just my opinion, certainly not scientifically proven.

[weixiao]

[QUOTE=IFG;7825072]
I will give you the scientist’s explanation. It is a selection bias called the Healthy Worker effect. Hunt horses only stay hunt horses if they can stay sound. Much as I love Hunting (and so did my horse), he was winnowed out by his inability to stay sound during the season.[/QUOTE]

This is a good point. We are dealing with something of a survivorship bias here.

[whicker]

I’ve used the old classic long format training as the base for my event horses, who continued to hunt after they retired from eventing. In their mid 20’s, they were still hunting 1st flight in the small mountain/ steep rolling hills of the Blue Ridge mountain Va hunt country. They were enjoying trail riding into their late 20’s. I agree with Smile the Pony assessment.

We also have a national champion endurance horse who learned to hunt at age 19, after he was retired from endurance. (He was very sick with Lyme when he came to us at that time) He was great fun and loved the hunting once he figured out he didn’t have to win, lol! He just retired from being ridden this summer at age 30… After he ran away with my surprised adult son the month before, lol!

They had big hilly pastures, 24 hour turn-out, and lots of variety in natural terrain. Our usual trail ride was about 2 hours, with the natural terrain used for the dressage work. The endurance vets know how to keep a horse sound for 100 miles of mountains for many years of competition.

[JER]

The cognitive load is also different in hunting and in eventing. I would think that, at least at the ULs, the cognitive load of novel XC questions, taken solo at UL speed, is considerably more than going with a group in the hunt, often over familiar country.

The demands of cognitive load (and the anticipation of cognitive load) impact physiological performance. More on that, with links to (human) studies, here.

[findeight]

I vote overall lifestyle, living out more, more off time, fewer drills, repitition and arena work. Plus being serviceably sound- you can’t dance around with avoiding too many warm up jumps or anything other then expensive, carefully maintained footing like you can with a show horse.

Might want to consider the overall type of horse that ends up being successful as a field Hunter versus what you select in a competition horse. Bit of a different skill set I should think. Sure, there may be some that excell at both but I think, on average, it’s a different horse to start with.

Think there is something in the cognitive theory above. Never thought of it but makes sense.

[IFG]

Forgot to add, you can also hunt on bute or previcox.

[enjoytheride]

I think there’s also a difference between the sports and their version of soundness. I think many horses race while sound to race horse people but to dressage people they are lame. Same with foxhunting. You are going over varied terrain at speed, which requires a horse to be a different type of sound than a horse that needs to be soft and relaxed on a 20m circle in a sand arena.

[enjoytheride]

I think there’s also a difference between the sports and their version of soundness. I think many horses race while sound to race horse people but to dressage people they are lame. Same with foxhunting. You are going over varied terrain at speed, which requires a horse to be a different type of sound than a horse that needs to be soft and relaxed on a 20m circle in a sand arena. That combined with the fact that running in a group is easy for most horses while running alone can be difficult for many.

[CindyCRNA]

[QUOTE=enjoytheride;7825340]
I think there’s also a difference between the sports and their version of soundness. I think many horses race while sound to race horse people but to dressage people they are lame. Same with foxhunting. You are going over varied terrain at speed, which requires a horse to be a different type of sound than a horse that needs to be soft and relaxed on a 20m circle in a sand arena.[/QUOTE]

This!! I would think that almost all event horses are pretty sound as you really can’t be off in the dressage phase but you have to have noticeable lameness to be pulled in the hunt field. I did not like road running. I heard one hunter tell another that it is good for the horse to road run. Uh, no. I hunted my mare last winter after eventing lower levels all summer and we evented this year. However, at some point she tore a suspensory and developed side bone. She was in great shape in the spring but alas, it was too much wear and tear.

[wildlifer]

[QUOTE=IFG;7825072]
I will give you the scientist’s explanation. It is a selection bias called the Healthy Worker effect. Hunt horses only stay hunt horses if they can stay sound. [/QUOTE]

Ding ding ding. “Selection bias” is music to my science geek ears! Well, because it should be recognized more often.

In addition, “soundness” IS very much a relative term. The physiological & mental demands of the two activities is hugely different. And no one jogs or drug tests a hunt horse either (not to suggest they are all drugged and lame, I know many hunt horses, but COTH loves to catch me out on every detail, sigh).

While road work is a good thing, road work at speed is damaging to anyone’s physiology. Hopefully, and in most cases probably, the seasonality, unpredictability, and variation of hunting gives horses enough time off to heal micro-tears or larger injuries, but I’d bet, just like in every other discipline, there’s plenty of “just because you can’t see it, doesn’t mean it’s not there.”

I love to see horses having long, active careers. But I’ve watched a 19 year old mare go succesfully around Rolex, seen GP jumpers in their 20’s, as well as reiners, endurance horses, etc – it’s not the activity, it’s the long-term management combined with the horse’s physiology.

Plus an (un)healthy dose of equine random suicidal intent, sigh.

[FitToBeTied]

Since my horses do both I’ve seen prep from both sides. I would say that the prep of the event horse is a lot more pampered from the eventing side. It seems to me that the ground is always just so. The gallop at my trainer’s farm is always perfect. The rings are perfect and the grass jumping areas are always perfect. So in my experience the event horse is conditioned to very good footing.

I’ve also seen a fair number of event horses come off of a BN/N/T really blowing hard. To me that is a sign of horse not conditioned to do its job and that leads to injuries.

Hunt horses are not used to such perfection and I think develop tougher feet, bones and tendons. Now I say that for hunt horses that are properly conditioned. I’ve seen a lot of hunt horses that get their shoes pulled and are tossed out in the field at the end of hunt season. When September rolls around they are re-shod and off hunting they go. These are the hunt horses that break down. It’s not unusual in a hunt to see some member with a new horse every year or two because “the other horse couldn’t hold up to hunting.”

For me, properly conditioning a hunt horse means they start conditioning at the end of July. We do hills and trot sets in the woods so that the feet, tendons and muscles acclimate to the ground over time.

Keeping them sound for hunting and eventing also means a good farrier, good feed and good hay. They also are messaged once a month at a minimum.

[Rainier]

I’m not close to any fox hunts anymore, but just took my young event horse out working cows for the first time today